Golem Pit (Combo-Attrition: 1 Core + FvW + CoK)

[DeckBuilder]

I think you are right. Maybe I just need a break from the forum. I always tend to enjoy a game less if I hang around on its forums too much. Too much theorycrafting and not enough playing

Lettucemode, please do not be put off this forum by Koz's abrasive "charm". He's pretty notorious for it frankly.

[Koz]

While this seems like a cool combo and all, I think that quick aggro would be a problem because you wouldn't have time to set up all of your tricks.  A aggro-rush Beastmaster, Warlock or Forcemaster should be able to put up a lot of pressure very quickly.

I also think a Lightning Wizard would be ok since Iron Golems are extra susceptible to Lighting spells.  After being teleported into the killbox (and the Nullify/Jinx is burned off) a Circle of Lightning would be pretty sweet (or just anticipating the killbox combo and putting the Circle of Lightning on before being teleported then revealing it once in there).  A Lightning Wizard could also cast Electrify within the killbox which CANNOT be stopped by Jinx.  Seeing all those Iron Golems standing around Dazed/Stunned would be amusing, and the Wizards Voltaric Sheild would help mitigate damage.

A Wizard running Huginn could also get out since Huginn can teleport the Wizard out.

Those are just two things off of the top of my head that I think would give the build problems.

Thanks for your post, Koz, but I never posted it as a challenge, unbeatable. Just as a strong tier 1 build that has not been beaten in my local meta. Hence why I predicted Earth Wizard to win at Gencon citing all of the above mechanics. I think (may be wrong) you predicted Warlock (piousflea) or Forcemaster to win. I appreciate that the Earth Wizard win was a different build but the principle still stands that a Wizard can handle super-aggressive.

I have even stated in my analysis against super-aggressive Beastmaster post that I would adjust my standard opening, a caveat I stated in my very first post. There is never just "one way" to play a well-built book and from the plethora of free action armour (plus Shield), with a Golem on turn 2 latest etc, please be assured that it can handle aggression. I am not saying the pressure from these aggressive builds cannot beat it. Just that in our local meta, they have all failed. Although my Beastmaster almost won (I was Beastmaster with my friend's card pool and my friend was playing my book, an older iteration with Idol of Pestilence, Deathlock, Orb of Suppression instead of the Arcane creatures).

From the tone of your post, Koz, you seem a bit riled, as if the concept offends you personally and your mission is to diminish it. I think the last time I saw you this riled was when you vigorously defended Hand of Bim-Shalla Temple of Light as not overpowered. Actually no, it was the "vigorous debate" you had with The Dude regarding must-have cards and your opinion of his Jokhtari build. Anyway, I know I shouldn't fan the flames refuting what you have written but hey, I like to play with fire. So...

I have mentioned Huginn is the combo's biggest problem, more than once, even in my opening post. In fact, it was because of Huginn "breaking the lock" that I hybridised the book into Plan B, attrition teleporting monsters. That's why I have the 2 Hydra and Gorgon, to go down a more traditional route.

I have also mentioned at least once that against Air Wizard or Priest, I forego Golems for the traditional Arcane monstrosities because of Lightning and Light issues. This was the advantage of having all 7 elites, no few bad match-ups as you toolbox choices.

I won't even mention the Forcemaster match-up, pure opponent.

As for Priestess turtling, that's what Teleport Trap and Spiked Pit is for. Although the post below is unfair as it talks about a teaching game (I knew my potential recruit liked combos so I was showing off a bit), it does show some of the tricks available.

Sorry to hijack this thread but Enchantment Transfusion not needing LOS reminds me of a memorable game anecdote I have to share...

Playing Earth Wizard in a teaching game, I had 4 Stone Golems with Pestilence Idol in my start corner trapped within 2 of my own Walls of Steel! I was in NC with Enchantment Transfusion, Force Hold and Nullify all hidden on me, enemy Priestess in his start corner with c.40 life (from Sunfire Amulet, Brogan had destroyed Deathlock and other conjurations before dying to Lightning Bolts from the toolbox Wizard's Tower). Going last, I moved to FC and cast Teleport Trap on NC then QC Teleport on his mage onto my trap which then teleported him to my corner Wall of Steel cell with 4 Golems (Teleport Trap needs no LOS). I had initiative next turn. He Early QC Eagleclaw Boots (he was 3 away from me). I moved back to NC, cast Jinx on myself then transfused all 3 other enchantments on me to his mage (Transfusion needs no LOS). Unable to escape (Force Hold now revealed), he cast his other spell Blinding Flash that did not Jinx, 3 Golems Dazed, 1 Golem Stunned (+2 vs. Nonliving). But over 2 turns of attacks from my Golems was just enough to kill him (next turn, he cast Dispel twice delayed by Jinx to break the Force Hold but the turn after, my first action Golem attack killed him just before he climbed out).

Yes, I know this was over-elaborate (it was a demo to a beginner who set up a strong fort of Archers + Guardian Angels + ToL that almost killed me, saved by Voltaric Shield and Force Orb). A Spike Pit and (already set-up) Enchantment Transfusion on Nullify plus Jinx does the same thing more efficiently. But I wanted to demo some of the potential trickery in the game as I knew he likes difficult to pull-off combos.

I half suspect that someone will now say that we played by the wrong rules!

So I am well aware that zonal attacks (and worse Chain Lightning) causes problems. If you read carefully, I was demonstrating how, because these spells (and damage barriers) have become scarce in spell books (1 Ring of Fire in Warlock is about it really) because swarm is not seen to be a threat (for reasons given in my "Etherian Lifetree and Corrode" strategy thread. Because of this "gap in the meta", this build thrives. I am perfectly aware of all those Core set spells like Electrify and Circle of Lightning. Did you really think only you suddenly thought of some silver bullet that I had totally forgotten about?

Compare how I refute your claims to how I embraced sIKE's claim that Mana Denial was possibly an Achilles heel - because I hadn't played against it. Or how I mulled over Destroy Magic and gave it a fair chance appraising it?

I think what really riled me is the plain aggresive way that you responded to Lettucemode who, btw, is quite new to this forum but vey enthusiastic. I remember reading your angry exchanges with piousflea on BGG over Warlock being weaker than Beastmaster. I remember being so abrasive to The Dude in that "must have cards" thread that he even called you "rude".

You really need to stop being so aggressive and antagonistic and rubbing people up the wrong way. I know you are incredibly at it but it's not something to flaunt.

I respect your thoughts and think you are a very knowledgeable player. I am sure that in person at a Con, you are far more personable. But the way you take everything as a personal affront, and especially the way you treat brave new posters so dismissively, you really need to examine your responses and see that you are not coming off well in print.

Just chill, Koz. I wasn't dissing your favourite build. i was highlighting some mechanic issues in the game via a very strong build. The disdain that you show, I don't know what to think of it but its puts people off. Just chill?

Dude...what in the HELL are you talking about?  I was "riled" in my initial post?  Freaking LOL!  Please point out ONE THING in that post that is aggressive, dismissive or insulting of anyone or anything.  I'm not even sure how you could take it as aggressive to be honest.  Do you just take any dissenting opinion as "aggressive" or something?  Can you not handle someone even mentioning the possibility that your pet build isn't an unstoppable monstrosity needing immediate errata?  Dude, I wasn't riled in the slightest before, but I sure am now due to your RIDICULOUS post. 

I wasn't even aggressive in my response to Lettucemode, I was pointing out how he was oversimplifying my argument, and that's it.  He even responded back that I was right in saying it, so where do you get off chastising me for it?  You need to check your attitude man.  If Lettucemode took offense because he misread my tone, he didn’t indicate that, and I would have apologized if he had.  But I don’t think he did, so why did you?

But thanks for informing me that any dissenting opinion offered by me regarding any position you take will not be tolerated.  I will keep that in mind in the future and just ignore everything you have to say. 

[Koz]

I think you are right. Maybe I just need a break from the forum. I always tend to enjoy a game less if I hang around on its forums too much. Too much theorycrafting and not enough playing

Lettucemode, please do not be put off this forum by Koz's abrasive "charm". He's pretty notorious for it frankly.

Dude, you need to chill out.  Seriously.  It's YOU who is coming off as the jackass here.  Plain and simple.

[Shad0w]

Ok look I do not want to lock this thread but  I will not have this turn into a flame war

[DeckBuilder]

You take this as me being angry about "any dissenting opinion", Koz? How come I have been embracing ideas that break this build. Until you come along with your "hey I know how to break this build" with the most bog standard builds out there!

My pet build? Hardly, I had retired it as boring to play for the last month, posting it just before it becomes obsolete by the meta.

Where is your sense of civility and humility? You have so much previous on this issue, Koz. Do I have to search the plethora of flare-ups you have had with everyone? From Piousflea to Dude to me. How many others have you rubbed up the wrong way?

"But it's all their fault" you whinge, "it's never me, I'm just misunderstood."

Compare my polite response to Lettucemode's suggestion of Destroy Magic to how you treated him in your replies to him. Just compare the tone of our replies to this new enthusiastic poster that you have chased away.

I'm certainly not going to stoop to name-calling like you. Hey, I don't need to. I think everyone who has witnessed how you rub everyone up the wrong way knows exactly what you are.

[Koz]

Wow...just wow.  You are the ONLY person on this entire forum who has reacted this way.  Any "dust ups" I've had with a handful of others have been resolved between us and usually BOTH parties were posting aggressively. 

Whatever, I'm done.  Get a grip dude.

P.S.  You still didn't point out a single thing in my recent posts here that were aggressive, dismissive or insulting to anyone and why you think its aggressive.  Having trouble with that are you?  Gee, how strange...

[DeckBuilder]

You skimmed right over the part where I named three other mages that I think can aggro-rush faster than you can set up the combo.  So I'm actually saying that I think you can play 4 different builds that can beat this depending on how it all plays out.  If mana denial works, then that's 5. 

What about a build that ALSO doesn't leave it's opening zone?  Do you really think that you're going to out-turtle a Priestess?  I'm not sure you can.  If not, that's 6 builds that can beat it (again, depending on how it all plays out, nothing is 100% in this game).

So to boil this down to "play Wizard or lose" is oversimplifying both my argument and this game.

This was an aggressive tone and put down to Lettucemode, a new enthusiastic poster. This resulted in him saying he is taking a break from the forum right afterwards. No chain of causation there!

Do you want me to find links to all of your dust-ups and post them?

Please note I've already covered all of your builds in prior posts in this thread. All of them are pretty standard builds, hardly something I've never played against (like mana denial). I even give counter-strategies to them. Nothing in your refutal post was anything new that people hadn't considered. But you say it in such a "you are wrong, these really old archetypes will all beat it" (Forcemaster beat Golems? Don't make me laugh!)

Now I have refuted all your builds with counter-strategies, highlighted how wrong you were on Temple of Light and Hand of Bim-Shalla, on GenCon winner prediction, so many posts out there coming back to haunt you. But you still manage to go against common consensus.

I'm not going to entertain this futile attempt to ask you to stop rubbing people the wrong way anymore. So please do not take my silence to your jibes as me not having anything to say to any response you make. One of us has to get this thread back on track so this is the last I will write about what I thought about your know-it-all arrival in this thread, souring it for everyone.

[Shad0w]

Guys this is my 2nd and last warning. Talk to each other like adults with no personal attacks. I will lock this and if it continues after the lock i will suspend accounts.

This is no longer amusing

PS: I did get the reports and have filed them.
 

[Koz]

Guys this is my 2nd and last warning. Talk to each other like adults with no personal attacks. I will lock this and if it continues after the lock i will suspend accounts.

I apologize for my reactions here Shad0w, but he got me pretty worked up.  I was just posting my thoughts on the subject in a non-aggressive manner (regardless of how he took it), and he basically blindsided me with an avalanche of condescension and insulting comments.

I'm done here and moving on, so you don't have to worry about this continuing from my side.

[Shad0w]

Guys this is my 2nd and last warning. Talk to each other like adults with no personal attacks. I will lock this and if it continues after the lock i will suspend accounts.

I apologize for my reactions here Shad0w, but he got me pretty worked up.  I was just posting my thoughts on the subject in a non-aggressive manner (regardless of how he took it), and he basically blindsided me with an avalanche of condescension and insulting comments.

I'm done here and moving on, so you don't have to worry about this continuing from my side.

Thank you.
Take some time step back and clear your head.

Check out my Earth Wizard - Control it is a work in progress but it has had overall good results it is just very hard to play.

[The Dude]

Hey dudes.

First off I want to start by saying that this build is the most awesome boring build I have seen in a while, and I do mean that with a lot of respect. The subtle answers to a diversity of builds is really interesting. The one thing that this build lacks (at least, to me) is creativity. And I think you know this, and it's why you think it's dull to play. It's a fairly straightforward book, and that isn't a bad thing. I could give this build (and I will) to new players who want to be competitive- and they will be. It's a huge problem I face today because my builds are *far* from straightforward, and they are easy to make mistakes with, which is another positive to this build- it's hard to make mistakes with this strategy. In a high pressure (live tourny) situation, I'm forced to believe this book will do well for the reasons stated above. Now, would I take this book to a tourny? Probably not, as it's not my bag, man. And I do tend to mess up a lot more with books I haven't built or do not know well.

Another reason I love this build is it forces you to make creative decisions to ANSWER it's strategy. And not just tactical solutions, either, but spellbook solutions, as well. Koz gave a really great card that I may start spending 6 points to splash- electrify. Even when not facing this build, electrify can stifle a storm way before it erupts, and I love it. As a matter of fact, I was writing off AoEs almost entirely before reading this, and I thank you both.

Reading through this entire post, I'm not sure if I caught it or not, but I do think divine intervention could be an answer here. Granted, you will have to get around both the jinx and the null first, and probably come close to death doing it, but I do think, played at the right time, could be a silver bullet to this particular build, as you would then have to waste countless actions breaking down the walls with golems (easier said than done says the guy that rolls 5 blanks and a natural 1). It would be great to see, though.

Despite the answers given, Hindsight is indeed 20/20, and I know for a fact that I would not have a good chance of winning had I faced this strategy before reading this particular build.

*Ties Tie dye bandanna around head*

Koz- this is a fairly family friendly forum (I JUST ALLITERATED THE PANTS OFF OF EVERYONE HERE!!). You may get angry, but it's still not okay to begin name calling. What was a great discussion on here degenerated quickly after you DID get aggressive. If you don't like what someone says man, just don't reply. It's the internet, man, and if you waste all your time defending your position, you lose sight of the importance of this forum at it's heart- learning and sharing. And I don't mean learning new insults to type either! (I jest, I jest!) Can we just get back to the build at hand? And let's save burning people for the Arena.

*Removes Bandanna*

Now, Deckbuilder, I have seen you post this fantastic build. You talked before about how you dismantled it, because of it's snore factor? What I usually do for books that just win, and I get bored of it, is to insert some aggressive strategy into it to give it new life. Maybe change the mage, but keep the idea? Or maybe, you could try a more interesting approach to Golem control? Maybe you could throw Huggy in the mix to try something new. The possibilities are endless, and usually it's through this approach that I find ANOTHER good strategy worth trying.

Bon chance, and happy building to you both!

[ringkichard]

Holy mages do have a potentially good match up against Golem Pit with Staff of Asyra and Divine Intervention. Intervention is especially good because if you cast it on yourself before the Transfusion comes down you can trigger it through the Nullify and the Jinx. Just poof away like the combo never happened.

The problem is that you probably still have to fight an attrition game against an Earth Wizard, and except for Brogan, you don't really have any creatures you want to use against Wizard's Tower or Iron Golem, unless you go for legendary Angels, and those are kinda vulnerable to Turn to Stone or similar control effects. And holy has no familiars, and freshly nerfed temples.

But yes, the book is largely strategy, little tactics, and therefore can get kinda dull to actually play. But if you really like winning, this is a book you need to either play or beat reliably.

[DeckBuilder]

I agree Priest (generally aggro) or Priestess (generally turtle), like Air Wizards, are bad for Golems so I switch to normal Wizard game (2 Hydras, Gorgon etc) as the book still has the usual Wizard tools with 3 Teleport Wands and disrupt trigger enchants. Divine Intervention (as mentioned in the "problems paragraph" of my opening post), the use of Light (especially Priest), Angel of Light and Angel of Lightning (latter more seen in Beastmaster swarm) are all big problems for Golems, so much so that I view them simply as end game creatures if they ever come out (the Arcane creatures regenerate so should be frontline when going aggressive attrition strategy).

The reason why the newbie Priestess in that teaching game didn't use Divine Intervention to escape was because he had already used it when he got into trouble earlier when closer, hence why I opted to keep the golems walled in after escape. The books were seeded purely to impress him with the combos possible as I knew he loved games with elaborate combos. I also had full knowledge of his book, knew that he had no Teleport or Nullify (all in my book, 1 Core set then), a set-up. Still, that ridiculously elaborate nail-biting win impressed him enough because he soon after bought his own copy. He may even be lurking in this forum (I spotted him post on BGG). I only mentioned it because it demonstrated some of the trickiness of the build due to Enchantment Transfusion and Teleport Trap not needing line of sight.

Yes, Dude and ringkichard, you are totally correct in surmising the reason I'd retired this book a month ago (one comeback match since) was because it bored me so much, and my opponents felt so frustrated against it. I mentioned this game-detrimental inevitability before.

I humbly predict Wizard to win, probably Earth Wizard. Even against control match ups.

My reasoning...
Enchantment Transfusion (no action Jinx + Nullify on enemy mage once teleported onto Spike Pit with 4 Iron Golems is too strong).
Voltaic Shield and the Gencon tie-breaker
4 Iron Golems + Pestilence + Suppression Orb (+ Deathlock or Gorgon Archer)
Wizard's Tower (Hurl Boulder) + Hawkeye Longbow + Ranged Defences
Metamagic anti-enchantments (Purge vs. stacked curses/buffs)

Enchantment Transfusion is the breakthrough control spell - hurrah!
Voltaic Shield damage prevention with Gencon tie-breaker helps time-outs

My Earth Wizard book (pretty obvious strategy) is unbeaten. In fact, the only game I lost with my Beastmaster (with Galador) was playing against my own Earth Wizard book. There is an inevitability about its victory.

Maybe I haven't worked out how to beat my build yet. The book that caused it most trouble was Warlord ranged zonal control with Bridge Trolls. But I can't see players being ballsy enough to play that... Be great if either won.

Any other guesses which mage will win Gencon?

I've alluded to it in several posts since and even celebrated the impending changing meta's domino effect (see "Etherian Lifetree and Corrode" strategy thread) because it weakens this archetype, not just those 2 effects hurting Iron Golems (much needed) but also kill zone strategy in general (because weenie swarm becoming popular means the return of multi-target attacks and damage barriers).

I decided to post the current (ever-evolving) iteration, so close to an impending meta change (no influence on GrandCon) after replying at length to Imaginator's "Mana Force!" Forcemaster spell book thread (below this one). Replying, I realised I'd never posted a book on this forum and, in order to critique other people's books, I really need to "show and tell" my own. Now most of my builds add no new insight to what experienced players should already know (the card pools are still very small compared to other games; this game rewards superior play). My only builds that said anything new was Curse Warlock and this newly coined Golem Pit, both of which leveraged Enchantment Transfusion. As I knew Golem Pit will soon be reduced in its potency due to Etherian Lifetree and Corrode, I thought the more responsible choice was to post this build. Since then, they have spoiled the Necromancer with his Poison Immunity so it looks like Curse Warlock has a Nemesis mage too now. But Warlock will also evolve with new toys from this coming set. This is as it should be, a living evolving game.

In posting it and embracing any ideas to break it (ideas that I hadn't considered or defeated already), I was also trying to:

(a) demonstrate the value of exploiting "the gap in the meta" (kill zones work because swarms are not seen as viable or dangerous)

(b) turn the spotlight on 2 cards, Enchantment Transfusion (my favourite, a finesse spell) and Teleport (a brutal, less subtle spell)

After debate with some learned posters like sIKE and ringkichard, I have changed my position on Enchantment Transfusion. In this game of "choose 2 spells", it single-handedly creates the Combo archetype (preparation actions to "embed" spells to string together a combo of spells all at once). Because the actions + attach mana are all paid for in advance, in fact you pay 1 extra action + mana (Transfusion itself) for the privilege of timing when to trigger this burst of free actions, this is actually an extremely elegantly designed and balanced card. But there definitely needs to be some "tech" released (beyond Dispel Wand peek to Seeking Dispel on Transfusion) to cause these Combos more trouble. ShadOw's Earth Wizard Control (where Seeking Dispels are deterred with Enchanter's Wardstones, synergetic with a mana denial theme) is another example of the combo's helpless inevitability (as Seeking Dispel on any other card is countered by Transfusion).

Where I still have reservations with is the simplicity of Teleport being used to assassinate enemy mages in your kill zone, usable in any build. The use of oh-so-versatile Teleport for all other functions is fine and in fact part of the trickster wizard's theme. But there is nothing trickster about luring the enemy to your kill zone (Teleport Trap needs finesse to pull off so this should be ok). This brutal use only creates "Teleport Wars", taxing spell points. It also encourages turtling, which is bad for the game. Why waste action resources coming to you if I can force you to come to me? It just deconstructs the game into something I'm far less enamoured with and I hope there are solutions in the new set of cards (like a spell similar to my proposed "Negate" or "Shrine") or something is done about it in a new version Living FAQ.

[lettucemode]

Just to clear the air...if you've ever been on an MMO forum, almost everyone is pointing out perceived problems with the game. In the past, wading around in that stuff has really hurt my enjoyment of the relevant game - until I actually go play it again! So yesterday I was really focused on the transfuse-teleport-trap thing and I noticed the same negative feelings welling up so I chose to break away for a bit. Nothing Koz or Deckbuilder said or did was at fault.

Koz, thanks for your comments. I didn't interpret your thoughts or tone as aggressive.

Deckbuilder, thank you for being so willing to create and defend a good environment for new players. That means something.

[Koz]

Holy mages do have a potentially good match up against Golem Pit with Staff of Asyra and Divine Intervention. Intervention is especially good because if you cast it on yourself before the Transfusion comes down you can trigger it through the Nullify and the Jinx. Just poof away like the combo never happened.

The problem is that you probably still have to fight an attrition game against an Earth Wizard, and except for Brogan, you don't really have any creatures you want to use against Wizard's Tower or Iron Golem, unless you go for legendary Angels, and those are kinda vulnerable to Turn to Stone or similar control effects. And holy has no familiars, and freshly nerfed temples.

Nerfing the Temples really hurt, especially since they went overboard on it (IMO).  Still, the Priestess can go toe to toe with an Earth Wizard fairly well, with the results coming down to who is the better player.  Even if the Earth Wizard "switches" to the Hydras and Gorgons, they're still in good shape.  Most Priestess decks I play against (and all the ones I build) have both Agony and Sacred Ground/Divine Protection in them which greatly mitigates the Hyrda's attacks (especially with a little armor).  Obviously such cards can be removed, but you can say that about anything.  And using the Gorgon against a Priestess isn't too scary thanks to her ability to remove the Weak counters.  Add in all of the Daze/Stun effects and Divine Intervention and you have all of the tools you need to beat the Earth Wizard, it all just comes down to who outplays whom.  Those games will go long though... 

Earth Wizard is certainly tough, no doubt, but I don't think it's overpowered, just very strong.  My opinion anyway.

Disclaimer: Please note that the above was just an opinion and in no way was meant to be aggressive, dismissive or insulting to any person or particular viewpoint.

Apparently I need to add that to every thread started by certain posters to avoid any misconceptions about my intent