Moving Target and Enchantment Transfusion

[reddawn]

The FAQ states:

"A spell fails and is canceled, if either of the following occur before the Resolve Spell Step:

1.The targetof the spell is no longer a legal target, or

2.The caster or target of the spell moves (e.g. by being Pushed or Teleported away), even if the move was to a location where the spell was still in range. (In the case of a Teleport, this applies even if the teleport was into the same zone)."


So, for example, if I had a Eagle Wings enchantment on a Mountain Gorilla and my opponent cast a Dispel targetting the Eagle Wings, could I reveal a Enchantment Transfusion, targetting that same Gorilla yet still moving the Eagle Wings (just to the same target), in order to counter the Dispel?  The FaQ suggests that I can.

Is this correct? 

[Moonglow]

I'd read the FAQ as suggesting that you can, but that the eagle wings are still there - they're the same wings/enchantment that the dispel was targetting, in the same zone etc.  so I would have thought that they're still  dispelled.

Have I got the sense of what you were trying for correctly?

[Kharhaz]

I would say no.

Page 18 Rulebook v2

"Enchantments are always attached to their target"

Meaning that the enchantment transfusion never causes the eagle wings to leave the gorilla as the gorilla is always the target of eagle wings. The eagle wings prevent the gorilla from being a target of the eagle wings to move them to him... again so no they can not "bounce on him"

[Kharhaz]

I would say no.

Page 18 Rulebook v2

"Enchantments are always attached to their target"

Meaning that the enchantment transfusion never causes the eagle wings to leave the gorilla as the gorilla is always the target of eagle wings. The eagle wings prevent the gorilla from being a target of the eagle wings to move them to him... again so no they can not "bounce on him"

errr..

The eagle wings prevent the E-trans from targeting the gorilla (with eagle wings) because it is not a legal target for eagle wings.

It would like trying to target another creature with eagle wings. It's not a valid target of the effect of transfusion, not the transfusion itself. Each enchantment you move must be to a valid target.

[reddawn]

Why isn't it a legal target for Eagle Wings?  Re-moving the Eagle Wings back onto the Gorilla from that same Gorilla doesn't break the "only 1" rule for enchantments.

Also, the FAQ specifies...

2.The caster or target of the spell moves (e.g. by being Pushed or Teleported away), even if the move was to a location where the spell was still in range. (In the case of a Teleport, this applies even if the teleport was into the same zone)."

So even if it's to the same target in the same zone and in-range, it still has the desired effect I want, because it moved, even if it moved to the same zone.

Though it would be nice if Shadow or someone from the rules team clarified this.

[ringkichard]

The way the rule is written, it's not a targeting restriction, it's an outcome restriction: "[...] but each object or zone cannot have more than one enchantment with the same name attached to it at one time."

At no point does moving an Eagle Wings from A to A cause the creature to have more than one Enchantment. That part of the plan seems legit.

[Kharhaz]

Lets walk through it:

Gorilla has eagle wings and a hidden enchantment transfusion (E-tank for short) attached.

opponent targets the eagle wings with a disenchant.

I reveal the enchantment transfusion.

Enchantment transfusion reads:
"When Enchantment Transfusion is revealed, you may move any enchantments you control from this creature to one legal target creature up to 2 zones away from this creature. X = ........."

Now as stated in the rules (pg 18 ) enchantments are always attached to something, you CAN NOT have an enchantment not attached to something. Which means that when E-tank checks to see if the gorilla is a valid target for the eagle wings enchantment, it is not because he currently has an eagle wings enchantment attached to him and, as we know,  he can not have more than one enchantment with the same name ( pg 18 )  attached to him. So the gorilla is not a legal target of the shift.

[jacksmack]

Lets walk through it:

Gorilla has eagle wings and a hidden enchantment transfusion (E-tank for short) attached.

opponent targets the eagle wings with a disenchant.

I reveal the enchantment transfusion.

Enchantment transfusion reads:
"When Enchantment Transfusion is revealed, you may move any enchantments you control from this creature to one legal target creature up to 2 zones away from this creature. X = ........."

Now as stated in the rules (pg 18 ) enchantments are always attached to something, you CAN NOT have an enchantment not attached to something. Which means that when E-tank checks to see if the gorilla is a valid target for the eagle wings enchantment, it is not because he currently has an eagle wings enchantment attached to him and, as we know,  he can not have more than one enchantment with the same name ( pg 18 )  attached to him. So the gorilla is not a legal target of the shift.

I believe legal relates to the target line:

"living creature"
"non-mage creature"
"mage"
"corporal creature"
etc etc.

[Moonglow]

Legal does apply to other aspects of placing an enchantment, but it seems a hard call to say that an enchantment can't move from the creature its on because the creature already has the enchantment.

I can see Kharhaz's point, it just seems pretty umm pedantic.  But thats the rules I guess

[ringkichard]

Except that the gorilla is a legal target. There's no rule against targeting a creature that already has Eagle Wings with Eagle Wings. There is a rule that says you can't have more than one Enchantment with the same name on a creature, but nothing says that it's a targeting restriction.

You're breaking the rules if you put two identical Enchantments on the same creature, but the rules don't say you can't try and fail.

[Kharhaz]

A. I might be way off here, I am just giving you my opinion on it. 

B. Lets look at a different way:

I have a goblin grunt with bear strength and an orc butcher with a hidden bear strength, lion savagery, and a hidden enchantment transfusion.

When I activate the transfusion and attempt to move the enchantments from the butcher to the grunt, can I knowingly move the hidden bear strength to the grunt? No.
Why? The grunt is not a legal target as per the requirement of E-tank.

Pg. 18 Rule book V 2.0
"There is no limit to the number of different enchantments that can be on an object, but each object or zone cannot have more than one enchantment with the same name attached to it at one time. This includes both hidden and revealed."

The E-tank never moves the bear strength from the orc to the goblin in the example above, but can move the lion savagery.

Same thing happens to the gorilla: the target must be a legal target of the eagle wings, which it is not because it already has an enchantment named eagle wings attached to it.

I believe legal relates to the target line:

"living creature"
"non-mage creature"
"mage"
"corporal creature"
etc etc.

If that were the case then you could E-tank/shift enchantment a plagued to an iron golem, which you can not. Because

[reddawn]

I'm still wondering where you're getting the extra Eagle Wings from.  The example you gave doesn't apply because I'm only talking about 1 Eagle Wings.

[Moonglow]

I read it as they're saying that the Eagle Wings can't move because they're trying to shift to a creature that already has them - if Kharhaz is right, then the Wings can't exist independent, so they can't leave the creature, so they creature always has them and so there's no game moment when it doesn't have Eagle Wings to become a legal target. 

I guess taking it the other way, transfusing them to another target creature, there is no point where the Wings are transitioning, first they're here, then they're there. So it can't be interrupted etc.

Kharhaz is saying that since the Gorilla always has them, it can't get them again. 

I'm still wondering where you're getting the extra Eagle Wings from.  The example you gave doesn't apply because I'm only talking about 1 Eagle Wings.

[reddawn]

Right, which is why I said the example isn't correct; my example doesn't use two of the same enchantment, just one.  And as long as the end result is 1 Eagle Wings, I'm not breaking any rule.

[Moonglow]

Not talking about two, the point is the Gorilla never loses them, there isnt a point in the transfusion cycle where the Gorilla doesn't have Wings...

Feels a bit like Schrodiners cat meets Alice in wonderland when its explained like that though...

Right, which is why I said the example isn't correct; my example doesn't use two of the same enchantment, just one.  And as long as the end result is 1 Eagle Wings, I'm not breaking any rule.