December 04, 2024, 01:00:45 PM

Author Topic: The wizzly Grizard  (Read 31418 times)

Charmyna

  • Playtester
  • Full Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 172
  • Banana Stickers 1
  • Dark Destroyer
    • View Profile
Re: The wizzly Grizard
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2013, 04:08:25 PM »
Tangle vine isn't good because it's destroyed too quickly. Tanglevine is good when you will have the initiative next turn and you want a tiny bit of tempo. It's worse in slower books that don't have a high damage thres, but with books that have anywhere from 12-21 dice a round thresholds, tanglevine becomes a lot better. Believe me, gaining initiative to jinx their tele to hit them with a meteorite with a hawkeye followed by a watchtowered sniper is ridiculous. Even if it's just double boulder jinxing them at the end of the previous round after vining them can be off the wall in hyper aggressive books like my Earth Wizard.

Which leads us to the problem with most of the Wizard builds seen at Gencon. They were all incredibly defensive without enough offense. It says something when the finals match goes to tiebreakers. Playing to the objective of the game is the only way to win. Playing to the tiebreaker is inefficient and does not give an accurate representation of the meta at all. I mean, the finals match didn't even see actual dice damage until the final quarter of the match!

What I like about this build more than any other of the Earth Wizard builds or wizard builds I've seen is that it has an actual clock, an actual damage threshold, and doesn't depend on the match going to time. Getting to watch Hanma play this deck was a great sight, and the only match he lost was the match where he... played too defensive!

Tanglevine can be good in the right situation - especially if paired with a jinx. But thats means you spent two spells and quite some mana to make it worth!
To compare tanglevine with other crowd control spells (e.g. force hold or turn to stone) i prefer to keep it as simple as possible (i.e. without jinx which can be used in both situations anyway). So lets have a look into a simple example: You cast a tanglevine on a Grizzly who is in a zone with one of your crystals. The grizzly cant move, but it attacks and onehits your crystal. Next round, your Opponent has initiative and teleports the grizzly into the zone he needs him. In the end, you used an action and 5 mana to cast tanglevine whereas your opponent used an action and 3+ mana to free the bear. But, he has the benefit of repositioning the bear!
How does this look for force hold? You reveal force hold on the bear. He attacks and onehits your crystal. Next round you need to pay 3 upkeep and your opponent dispels Force Hold. In the end you paid 3 mana more than your opponent and both of you spent an action. But, he will not be able to reposition the bear (well unless he uses another action for that).
Another benefit of force hold/turn to stone is that it lasts for an infinite time if your opponent runs out of dispels and you got enough mana. I prefer cards that last quite some turns or which force the opponent to use his dispels at least. The idea behind this is to be spellbook point conservative.
To summon up: Tanglevine is quite a good spell, but its effect isnt worth putting it into this spellbook - especially not since its out of school and turn to stone costs only 1 spellpoint more.

Something else to consider: Some might think its better to have one tanglevine and a turn to stone instead of two turn to stone. I think its not, because the tanglevine has a different counter than turn to stone. Therefore, its better to focus on turn to stone since at some point your opponent will run out of dispels. If you instead combine tanglevine with turn to stone, he might run out of dispels but that doesnt matter, since you have only tanglevine left which he is able to counter with his remaining teleports.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 04:38:47 PM by Charmyna »

Tacullu64

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 418
  • Banana Stickers 10
    • View Profile
Re: The wizzly Grizard
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2013, 04:14:34 PM »
Tangle vine isn't good because it's destroyed too quickly. Tanglevine is good when you will have the initiative next turn and you want a tiny bit of tempo. It's worse in slower books that don't have a high damage thres, but with books that have anywhere from 12-21 dice a round thresholds, tanglevine becomes a lot better. Believe me, gaining initiative to jinx their tele to hit them with a meteorite with a hawkeye followed by a watchtowered sniper is ridiculous. Even if it's just double boulder jinxing them at the end of the previous round after vining them can be off the wall in hyper aggressive books like my Earth Wizard.

Which leads us to the problem with most of the Wizard builds seen at Gencon. They were all incredibly defensive without enough offense. It says something when the finals match goes to tiebreakers. Playing to the objective of the game is the only way to win. Playing to the tiebreaker is inefficient and does not give an accurate representation of the meta at all. I mean, the finals match didn't even see actual dice damage until the final quarter of the match!

What I like about this build more than any other of the Earth Wizard builds or wizard builds I've seen is that it has an actual clock, an actual damage threshold, and doesn't depend on the match going to time. Getting to watch Hanma play this deck was a great sight, and the only match he lost was the match where he... played too defensive!

I thought you were trying to find your inner control player. Are you going aggressive again already? :o

The Dude

  • Hitchhiker of sorts
  • Playtester
  • Sr. Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 435
  • Banana Stickers 5
  • It's like... good gracious...bodacious.
    • View Profile
Re: The wizzly Grizard
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2013, 05:21:22 PM »
In response to Charmyna: I agree, it's not good in your build, as I stated, as your build is slower, and less based on tempo aggression. In my particular build, it works. That's all I'm saying!

@Tacullu: I know, I know! I guess I mean to say that if you are going up against a meta of defensive, let's build until the cows come home meta, your best bet is to play as aggressively as possible, and I think a book that can't do that isn't complete. Especially when given 75 minutes to complete a game based on a rather poorly thought out tiebreaker!
  • Favourite Mage: Johktari Beastmaster
Always carry a towel...

Tacullu64

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 418
  • Banana Stickers 10
    • View Profile
Re: The wizzly Grizard
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2013, 05:31:55 PM »
@The Dude  In that case you're absolutely correct. Building a control book without enough offense is one of the easy traps to fall into. Especially if you're used to MtG. It is easy to think, I put x number of threats in my magic deck, but I only need x-2 in my MW spellbook because I can get them whenever I need them. That is not how it really plays out. So yeah, make sure you have enough offense.

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1073
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
Re: The wizzly Grizard
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2013, 05:43:24 PM »
The time when tanglevine shines is when you think the enemy might have a nullify on the target, and you dont have 2 actions to spend on getting rid of that face Down enchantment.

when cast, Tanglevine is uncounterable. - except jinx.

Charmyna

  • Playtester
  • Full Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 172
  • Banana Stickers 1
  • Dark Destroyer
    • View Profile
Re: The wizzly Grizard
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2013, 07:37:59 PM »
The time when tanglevine shines is when you think the enemy might have a nullify on the target, and you dont have 2 actions to spend on getting rid of that face Down enchantment.

when cast, Tanglevine is uncounterable. - except jinx.

That is a really good point!

zot

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 800
  • Banana Stickers 5
    • View Profile
Re: The wizzly Grizard
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2013, 07:48:14 PM »
i did not play against this build. my initial reaction is that it seems like the spellbook cost is too high. out of school for 8 points is a lot. why not put in two iron golems instead and have 2 more  points to spare or for one more point put in the third golem. plus they are cheaper to cast than the grizzly.

Tacullu64

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 418
  • Banana Stickers 10
    • View Profile
Re: The wizzly Grizard
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2013, 08:04:52 PM »
i did not play against this build. my initial reaction is that it seems like the spellbook cost is too high. out of school for 8 points is a lot. why not put in two iron golems instead and have 2 more  points to spare or for one more point put in the third golem. plus they are cheaper to cast than the grizzly.

The build already has two iron golems in it. What you are suggesting would give it five.

The grizzly has a few advantages. It is not slow, it can be buffed, and it can be healed. The grizzly can also be used more aggressively than the golems.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 08:07:27 PM by Tacullu64 »

zot

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 800
  • Banana Stickers 5
    • View Profile
Re: The wizzly Grizard
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2013, 08:11:58 PM »
missed that part. was just thinking of the spell on its own and think that 2 iron golems are better than one grizzly and 2 book points to spare. it was just a raw comparison.

Tacullu64

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 418
  • Banana Stickers 10
    • View Profile
Re: The wizzly Grizard
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2013, 08:16:20 PM »
If it was an either/or case golems all the way. Since he already has that base covered the grizzly makes more sense.

Tim

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: The wizzly Grizard
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2013, 07:02:34 AM »
I play a similar build. It is a very good spellbook. The most problems I have are rush strategies: especially the warlock but also the Priest! The warlock because of its curses (finite life, ghoul rot) which provides direct damage. But the priest with battle forge is also a thread: he already has a light attack that can daze, + temple of light, the staff of asyra which can daze/stun en have 4 attack dice +2 vs non-living (iron golem!) with is a pain because in a game the priest was able to kill the grizly in 1 round before I could minor heal the grizly. When the grizly is gone it is hard to keep the mage under pressure. You can cast iron golem but with that staff it dies in 2 rounds (you cant heal iron golem). You can play well with initiative off course: when you have initiative next turn you can summon iron golem and attack for 6 dice but still it is gone next round. I will increase the dissolve in my deck for de-building the opponents attack/defense power. I am thinking to ad another thought creature but not sure on that. Anny thought/tips?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 08:00:11 AM by Tim »

ringkichard

  • Flightless Funpire
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2564
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Kich, if you prefer.
    • View Profile
Re: The wizzly Grizard
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2013, 09:00:40 AM »
Staff of Asyra does 6 dice against Golem+2 from bear strength + 1 from gauntlets = 9 dice which is about 5 damage against Arm 5. I can see how good rolls or supporting attacks would kill a  Iron Golem in a couple of turns.

I don't see how he managed to kill your Bear in one turn, though. What did he do? 7 dice shouldn't kill a Grizzly.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 09:03:08 AM by ringkichard »
I can take the fun out of anything. It's true; here, look at this spreadsheet.

Tim

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: The wizzly Grizard
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2013, 09:48:26 AM »
the priest had staff, gauntlets, bear strength, dawnbreaker ring + bim-shalla and a holy avenger knight of westlock. I already had taken 4 damage on grizly but thanks to a clever move I was 2 zones away of the bear (since minor heal is 0-1zone I couldn't cast it) since he had initiative. He attacked and did an ridiculous good roll and the bear was dead! From that point I lost being able to pressure the opponent. In the end I still managed to win the game :d but it was really thought!
Okay he rolled extremely good but yeah there I was without my big boss monster. I never expected that it died that turn before I could heal the bear but jeah bad luck I guess :p
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 09:50:26 AM by Tim »

ringkichard

  • Flightless Funpire
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2564
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Kich, if you prefer.
    • View Profile
Re: The wizzly Grizard
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2013, 11:47:18 AM »
Yeesh, there's the problem right there. 9 dice against bear, 11 against Golem. Eww :-)
I can take the fun out of anything. It's true; here, look at this spreadsheet.

Tim

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: The wizzly Grizard
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2013, 12:42:24 PM »
Mjep, I know: it is a problem. It was a really thought game. That's why I am hoping for some tips/tricks/suggestions. You can always learn :d