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Author Topic: The Vampire and Angel Wizard Control Build  (Read 24098 times)

Fentum

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Re: The Vampire and Angel Wizard Control Build
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2013, 04:55:24 PM »
.  I'd just advocate being a little more flexible in your openings, and to consider a combination of creatures that require your opponent to interact on different axes in an effort to round out the build.

 try to include some creatures that require different answers into your opening, as a way to be less predictable and cover the weaknesses of your creatures. 

I find this a fascinating discussion as I often play using and against the Wizard / GA / NV  build. My thinking is largely aligned to Charmyna and not really Reddawn, but I worry that I may be blinded by local meta.

It might help if Reddawn could share a few examples of the quoted bits above? No offence here, I am genuinely interested in reading a different perspective.


sIKE

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Re: The Vampire and Angel Wizard Control Build
« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2013, 05:17:19 PM »
I have been wondering the same thing myself. The meta that we have been playing (Charmyna's) has been quite the challenge. I often wonder when I have debated others in the past (Koz/Koy) what they are seeing that I am not. With that said, until I bumped into Charmyna on Octgn I thought that I had a very decent handle on the game and rather solid spell book. He proceeded to blow it out of the water. So, I pay much attention to other player who opine on the topic. I just don't have the clarity to understand why it is what they say :)
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ringkichard

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Re: The Vampire and Angel Wizard Control Build
« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2013, 05:20:57 PM »
For my build, I'm struggling with creature variety, too, though I still haven't had a good chance to test my first draft. Bridge Troll is an option, and he benefits from many of the same tricks Vamp does and he heals without requiring a living target to trigger Vampirism. Also,  Gorgon archer could add in some much needed anti-swarm (ranged is better than melee for this because you really want to get the first hit against small creatures).

But a book that runs Bridge Troll, Vamp, Guardian Angel, and Gorgon Archer is just begging to get shut down by Deathlock. At this point I'm probably going to include it in my 4golem Warlord metagame book. It'll shore up the matchup with Vamp books, (including that pinned 3vamp Warlock with Drain Soul and life ring) and it's lovely to have against Priestess, if she ever comes back as a control book. I suspect it'll also be critical against the Druid for regenerating plants, so it's good to be prepared.
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sIKE

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Re: The Vampire and Angel Wizard Control Build
« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2013, 05:54:41 PM »
Honestly Deathlock is not that frightening. Yes it gets dropped and you deal with it. You use the creatures you have to kill the mage or Deathlock. I would rather face Deathlock vs. the Gorgon Archer any day.

Having Finite Life on the GA/Vamp only takes away one aspect of their main strengths, yes they don't heal but the flying still makes them much superior than the other creatures out there. I have tried both the Dwarf and Gargoyle's with not much effect.
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ringkichard

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Re: The Vampire and Angel Wizard Control Build
« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2013, 08:07:06 PM »
Really? My usual solutions to Gorgon are to teleport her into danger, block her line of sight, or play non-living creatures, and none of those strategies really work on Deathlock. To me, Deathlock seems a lot harder to disrupt, which means you actually have to kill it if you can't ignore it.

Angel + Vamp is what, 28 mana and two full actions? With only 5+3 attack dice it isn't a great way to race. Beastmaster can get that with a Dire Wolf and a pet Bobcat, and for less actions and less mana. Vamp + Angel is good because it's hard to kill, not because it's especially deadly.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 08:08:57 PM by ringkichard »
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reddawn

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Re: The Vampire and Angel Wizard Control Build
« Reply #50 on: July 31, 2013, 08:55:14 PM »
@Fentum: I'd like to give examples, but without knowing what else in the spellbook, it's pretty much a shot in the dark.  The only thing I do know is that he's already devoting 14 spellbook points to non-arcane creatures as the Wizard, and really, I haven't have good experiences doing something like that.  14 or more spellbook points on only 2 cards is very costly, which is fine if it's actually working; I personally just don't see the need to devote almost a 1/5 of a spellbook to those creatures.

Basically, I can't give specific advice unless I see the entire book.  Right now, I'm rather skeptical that it works against decent builds, and frankly, I don't consider winning against pre-CoK Forcemaster "sniper build" relevant in any way, which is the only thing I have to go off of here. 

And yeah, I don't see the Gorgon being nearly as impressive as posters make her out to be.  Being naturally Slow is a pretty significant disadvantage, her melee dice suck, and her Ranged dice aren't all that great either.  She might get a Weak off before something big beats the hell out of her, but a Weak or two and below a below average dice count isn't really worth a massive 16 mana. 
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reddawn

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Re: The Vampire and Angel Wizard Control Build
« Reply #51 on: July 31, 2013, 09:22:14 PM »
I will say, however, that the new Intercept creatures are breathing life into the competitive viability of ranged creatures, so maybe I after I do some post-CoK testing with the Gargoyle w/Gorgon and so on, I'll have a better opinion of her.  I expect so, since I've found that Royal Archers and Grimson are much better with their respective Intercept guards, along with additional muscle in Thorg or Knights.

Intercept seems to be encouraging fortifying a particular zone, though, and I've found Zone attacks to be more relevant as well.  It's a good balance so far, since Intercept doesn't interact with Zone attacks, but I myself am still learning the ins and outs of the new cards a month after their release, even though I've played pretty every day since then.
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sIKE

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Re: The Vampire and Angel Wizard Control Build
« Reply #52 on: July 31, 2013, 10:12:56 PM »
@ringkichard - IOP drops and you either change tactics and kill it OR continue on and adjust with the understanding that their is no healing (for both sides), it is a very reasonable to take the 2nd path and just live with it.

However, if you do not alter your tactics and strategy for the GA you will rue the day. This to me, means that I am off plan and playing into my opponents strategy. Much worse than not being able to heal. I now HAVE to take actions and mana to remove the threat from the board or at least something that nullifies it.

I am sure there are other ways of seeing this, but that is my take away at least. Now back to the Vamp/Angel Wizard build.

As was pointed out within 3 points of each other any mage can run this duo. I am not sure if their are better synergies with the combo than the pairing with the Wizard. I can tell you that the pairing + Wizard's Tower is quite a handful to deal with. The opening when well timed and executed is very hard to counter. I would like to devise a way to disrupt it, but though I try very hard, I still haven't quite got the mix right to counter......
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Charmyna

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Re: The Vampire and Angel Wizard Control Build
« Reply #53 on: July 31, 2013, 11:57:15 PM »
1. Your point on the vampire is kind of an oversimplification of what's actually going on.  It's not as if you somehow gain mana when your opponent controls your creatures, you still payed 16 for your vampire, and it's still significantly worse round after round with PB on it.  You could say the same thing for many creatures affected by a control card, true, but it's more the fact that your opponent doesn't really need a variety of spells to deal with what you're doing between the Angel and the Vampire. 

The vampire's base stats are decent for 16, but comparatively, other creatures at that cost have better.

Overall, all I am saying is that I don't think it's a good idea to go into a game consistantly casting creatures that require only one line of interaction (Finite Life).  If it's working for you, that's fine; do what works if it wins you games.  The Vampire and GA are certainly strong enough creatures to support what you're trying to do.  I'd just advocate being a little more flexible in your openings, and to consider a combination of creatures that require your opponent to interact on different axes in an effort to round out the build.

2. I'm kind of skeptical that you only need a Vampire to attack.  At least in my games, even a Pet Steelclaw or Adramelech needs some kind of additional creature support in order to effectively go on the offensive against a group of large creatures plus the enemy Mage.  I don't really know what kind of builds you play against, so I can't say for sure though. 

The only one posted here is a "pre CoK" FM sniper build, which is pretty odd honestly.  Pre CoK I would say that Grimson is an awful card, but with the new line of intercept creatures, he has become significantly better since it's much harder to just efficiently nuke him down with a Fireball/Hurl Boulder.

3. Well, here's my opinion on the "very important" cards, with a "yes" for it should be included in every book and a "no" for it's not that important:

Dispel: yes.

Seeking Dispel: no.

Teleport: no.

Nullify: no.

Jinx: no.

E. T.: no.

The only card I've found I can't live without is Dispel, because enchantments are just too important.  The rest on your list I obviously have very different thoughts than you about, but they're all just meta-pick cards that no book needs from the start. 

There are many more cards from other schools that I could list that are strictly more relevant than 95% of the cards you list there.  Rhino Hide, Bear Strength, Bull Endurance, Regrowth, Cheetah Speed, Agony, Ghoul Rot, Marked for Death, Chains of Agony, various heal/protection spells from the Holy school, a few from the Mind school like the Push spells and Block...those are all cards that don't need a really specific situation to be good.  Cards like Purge Magic, Mage Wand, and Elemental Cloak aren't inherently worth their cost and are not worth playing unless youre in a very specific situation.  Dispel is really the only Arcane card that I can guarantee I'll use every game, or at least have a very high chance of using.

4.  I could say a lot here, but I'll suffice with this: flying on these intercept creatures isn't terribly relevant, because creatures lose flying when they guard, which they should be doing because they aren't good at attacking.  The angel especially only actually heals when it chooses to forgo its flying and guard, so I don't get the correlation you're making.  I've played against these cards, and really, you don't need to explain it out on paper to get a good idea that they're pretty much all the same card, albeit tweaked in fairly irrelevant ways.

TLDR: There's a lot here we disagree about, but my main on-topic thought is that I'm going to respectfully recommend that you try to include some creatures that require different answers into your opening, as a way to be less predictable and cover the weaknesses of your creatures.  Right now, they share the same weaknesses, and my own experience has told me that it doesn't take long for your opponents to adapt to that and punish it.   

Not saying your opening is really weak, because I did the math and you seem to be optimizing the amount of mana you're spending (which is good), just that adding some variety in the types of creatures you play would make your opening harder to attack.

First, im really surprised that you dont see nullify, teleport and jinx as necessary metas. You might have a much different meta game than I faced yet, so I would be curious how a game against you develops. IMO those three cards allow some really nice actions with immense effects on the board (e.g. teleport can allow your creatures to attack the opponent mage with 10+ dices or prevent 10+ from your mage in situations in which this were not possible otherwise).

I see your point that both, the angel and the vamp, have the same weakness (i.e finite life) and that in some situations its better to just have a creature with higher base stats (damage dice, life, armor, maybe piercing). Therefore I will try different openings that focus on creatures that have better base stats and see how they perform compared to the angel vamp combo.
So for now, I will try a grizzly+gorgon archer combo while building up channeling. The idea is that the increased channeling and the gorgon archer forces the opponent to attack while the grizzly makes sure the opponent get hits hard if he moves into the grizzlys/archers zone.
So here is the opening I thought of:

Round 1 (20 mana):
Grizzly+harmonize (face down), total cost 19 mana

Round 2 (11 mana):
arcane ring + mana crystal, total cost 6 mana

round 3:
before channeling phace reveal harmonize  (will get benefit of the ring since its a new round, costs 3 mana). Therefore, this round I start with 14 mana.
Play 2 face down enchantments on bear or whatever.

Round 4:
Gorgon archer+mana crystal if opponent is slow or something defensive if he is quick

The downside of this opening compared to the angel opening is that I have no interceptor, which really helps against some kinds of rushes. On the other hand, I guess the grizzly will do quite some nice damage to the opponent while he is focusing me and I will build up defences quickly and use voltaric shield often if he is rushing. Have to see how it turns out in a real game.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 12:15:11 AM by Charmyna »

reddawn

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Re: The Vampire and Angel Wizard Control Build
« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2013, 04:11:34 AM »
Steelclaw should be a good call; it really isn't afraid of any other creature in the game, especially after you apply buffs.

And just to be clear, I LIKE Nullify and Teleport a lot (undecided on Jinx) and often include them, but I have found that other cards can accomplish most of the things they are used for, and for a lower mana and spellbook costs.  Teleport seems to be mainly used for positioning, which is fine, but cards like Charge and Force Push usually suffice, though Teleport is still the easiest way to get out of Restraining conjurations (Eagle Wings can actually counter Tanglevine and Quicksand if you're good at timing, though).   

All this really means is that while I like what the Arcane school has to offer, I just don't hold it on the high pedestal that some players seem to.  It's a school like any other, it just happens to offer easy-to-use spells like Teleport and Nullify that seem to solve all kinds of situations, when in reality, there are many ways to solve those same situations in other schools, and often at less of a premium.
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Charmyna

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Re: The Vampire and Angel Wizard Control Build
« Reply #55 on: August 01, 2013, 08:30:47 AM »
I had five games until now against five different players with the grizzly+gorgon+increased channeling opening (although i skipped the gorgon sometimes if necessary) and all went really well and most of them like I thought they would: The grizzly is a really threatening creature and the gorgon/channeling help to get an advantage even in an otherwise stalled situation. In a game in which the opponent casted gate of voltari the grizzly + wizard tower got down his gorgon archer before it could shoot once. The grizzly also has nice synergy with repositioning spells like teleport, force push, jet stream etc.

An interesting strength of the grizzly came to my mind:

Assume the following situation:

Z is an empty Zone, M is my Mage, O is the opponents mage (hes a wizard) and the grizzly is G.
I casted the grizzly in round 1 and the opponent casted some stuff a wizard who rushes early with fireballs would do (i will not talk about me realizing its a fireball cannon, but about positioning effects of the bear).

So in round 2 the opponent moves here and throws fireballs:

M/G  Z    Z    Z
Z     O    Z    Z
Z     Z    Z    Z

As the last action in round 2 I move the grizzly to the opponents zone (without or with fast doesnt matter for now):

M     Z      Z    Z
Z     O/G   Z    Z
Z     Z      Z    Z

The effect of the bear is that in round 3 the opponent feels under pressure to move out of the grizzlys zone. So lets assume he does:

M     O   Z    Z
Z     G    Z    Z
Z     Z    Z    Z

This opens up my own Mage to flee:

Z     O   Z    Z
Z     G    Z    Z
M     Z    Z    Z

I do not say fleeing is a good move, but I could. Especially if im fast thats great. If I have initiative in the next round, I dont have to move two zones in one round and still be able to be in the corner i showed above before the opponents next turn. That is important because it will make it more difficult for the opponent to chase me and to use explode/dissolve etc on me.
Now add the wizard tower with jet stream for a 75% chance to push and the opponent will really have problems to position himself well between staying out of the grizzlys zone, avoiding being pushed away from my mage and still being in range to put me under pressure.

To summon up: The grizzly is not only a good creature per se, but its full action attack has positioning effects which might help in a couple of situations. Most other creatures which make the opponent avoid their zone are slow btw!
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 11:46:42 PM by Charmyna »

ringkichard

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Re: The Vampire and Angel Wizard Control Build
« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2013, 09:49:05 AM »
Yeah, I run a Steelclaw + Archer Beastmaster and the combo's pretty good. I haven't updated it yet for Conquest, but I'm probably going to have to add in some mana flowers.

Interestingly, Gorgon is weaker now than she used to be, with the arrival of intercept, but she still seems well suited to the new potentially slower meta.
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Nicolai

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Re: The Vampire and Angel Wizard Control Build
« Reply #57 on: August 13, 2013, 12:06:53 PM »
Hi Charmyna

Thank you for a very good explanation of your strategies with the wizard, it really have made me want to play him next time.

Can you please upload your deck ? I would love to try it out.

Thanks

Charmyna

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Re: The Vampire and Angel Wizard Control Build
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2013, 05:13:03 AM »
Hi Charmyna

Thank you for a very good explanation of your strategies with the wizard, it really have made me want to play him next time.

Can you please upload your deck ? I would love to try it out.

Thanks

Mhh im not really keen on posting my full deck right now. But if you watch my games live or the recorded ones, I cant blame you for looking into my spellbook :P. Here is the link if you are interested:

http://www.twitch.tv/charmyna

Nicolai

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Re: The Vampire and Angel Wizard Control Build
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2013, 08:55:15 AM »
Hi,

Thanks for the link. However i have spent some time trying to write down your deck from your play against reddawn. Its difficult when the names are microsmall and only 10 % of the card is visible while in the spellbook. Nevertheless i managed to get all of the cards written down, but noticed that you have not any vampires or angels in that specific build (?)

I have installed OCTGN, is there any way i may/ can check your decklist from there?