Promo cards

[Alpha]

The Promos will take up signifigant space in the strategy threads - threads i cannot participate in or learn from because i dont have access to discussed promos.

Okay. This point I 100% agree with. I theorycraft and theorycraft and find a flaw or a opening in a build on the forums and mention it and the response is a lot of times. "Well just use gravikor or another promo" ahahah.

So yes, the above point I agree with. However I still think it's not a big deal AT ALL to just play without promos. The decks I build are all built without even considering promos. Unless they are officially available to everyone I don't give them much thought.

[jacksmack]

The Promos will take up signifigant space in the strategy threads - threads i cannot participate in or learn from because i dont have access to discussed promos.

Okay. This point I 100% agree with. I theorycraft and theorycraft and find a flaw or a opening in a build on the forums and mention it and the response is a lot of times. "Well just use gravikor or another promo" ahahah.

So yes, the above point I agree with. However I still think it's not a big deal AT ALL to just play without promos. The decks I build are all built without even considering promos. Unless they are officially available to everyone I don't give them much thought.

Well i probaly forgot that it kinda annoys me to have the feeling of not having access to it all.

And its probaly because cant avoid thinking about that sexy ballista (atleast on paper it looks sexy), and i cant use it... having to wait an unknown potientially infinite amount of time before its released is just annoying for me.
I understand other people dont care and you probaly have the right approach... but i honostly feel like im missing out in something. Also i want to add that wanna of the key describtions of MW that made me buy core, tome 1, tome 2 and FvsWL all at once just after discovering it on BGG and then seeing all the vids hyping myself to the moon and back more than once was the NON collectiable part... TBH i would probaly still play MtG if it wasnt such a money sink.

I realize that my feelings on this subject might seem silly to some, but never the less thats how it is.

i HATE promos

[DeckBuilder]

Another point..

I am not (or rather no longer) an OCD completist. But there are alot out there in the gaming hobby hence all the expansions for perfectly fine games. CCGs & LCGs rely on this "collector" element among us gamers. It is their bread and butter because these are guaranteed repeat purchasers of your product, the best customers you could possibly hope for.

However I totally sympathised with a poster in a different thread who admitted he was an OCD completist and bemoaned the fact he could not sleep at night because he did not have promo cards to complete his collection (ok, humourous hyperbole but you get the point).

So what AW are promoting is a black market (E-Bay) to exploit an important segment of their consumer base. AW are not even profiting from it (barring a cosy Dice Tower relationship)! I could understand if AW were making money out of this but they are not, others are. They alienate their best repeat-purchasers (completists) to make others richer.

As well as alienating anpther customer segment, strategists (like jacksmack and myself), who can't join in with current promo-inclusive meta discussions in forums and feel disenchanted when we build as we have access to less cards than everyone else.

This marketing strategy of limited distribution strategy-pivotal cards is commercial madness in the long run.

[Wiz-Pig]

I have to agree with Deckbuilder and Jacksmacks. I find the amount of strategy posting and commentary on promo cards to be extremely irritating, especially when it comes from people like Shadow who are actually employed by AW.

Also I would like to point out that while in an ideal world you could just request to play without promos and everything would be fine. In the real world the people with the promos will use your lack of promos as an excuse to exclude you, or in some cases will refuse to play without promos without some serious pressure, potentially making the non-promo players feel like they are being unreasonable.

There is an elite aspect to this practice that cannot be denied and it's easier to disregard it if you are one of the elites.

[ringkichard]

For what it's worth, I don't play with the promos I own, and much prefer to play tournament legal games. The power level on some of the promos is kinda high and without the buffering effect of a whole playtested set, the standout cards like gravikor, ballista, and imp familiar can really distort the game.

That new Warlord promo conjuration that lets you bring creatures into play with a guard token, for example. That card combos very efficiently with Panzergarde, and careful playtesting will be required to create a balanced tournament game once it's legal.

[Paleblue]

For what it's worth, I don't play with the promos I own, and much prefer to play tournament legal games. The power level on some of the promos is kinda high and without the buffering effect of a whole playtested set, the standout cards like gravikor, ballista, and imp familiar can really distort the game.

That new Warlord promo conjuration that lets you bring creatures into play with a guard token, for example. That card combos very efficiently with Panzergarde, and careful playtesting will be required to create a balanced tournament game once it's legal.

I was quite sad when I saw that Warlord conjuration as a promo, because it means we wont get it for a long time in normal play (6-12 months from now if it isn't included in the Necro expansion). Likewise I had the same feeling about the dice tower promos, many great cards which wont see the light of day for who knows how long.

I realise that they want to attract people to the various conventions to build interest, which in turns brings more people into the game. Tough to find a balance.

[sIKE]

Promo's should only bother those who want them, otherwise released cards should be all that matters.  I like playing with both, the promo's give you a future peak and are fun to play, but my truly serious spell books are Promo free.

To give you an idea of balance, when playing against Charmyna I need all the help I can get, he plays a clean Promo free deck with errata's. (He has even allowed me) with my promo heavy decks (I.E. Ballista and all of the sexy cards) I still have not been able to beat him.

I understand the some of the feelings about Promo's, but only so far. I have bought the Core, FvM, CoK and both Tomes. I have gone to my FLGS and picked up some Promo's. I travel for a living so I get the chance to go into many game stores (25 so far this year) so I do have a leg up there. I didn't do the Kickstarter but I have made donation to Dice Tower recently.

I do agree with the E-Bay piece though. It does not appear to me that it is someone (like me or another average player) with a limited supply of Promo's but someone that has access to an endless supply of the cards and they are making large bank. Quite nasty IMHO. I do wish that they would cycle the Promo's in much quicker than what it appears is going to happen. At this point only the deer has become legit....

[Shad0w]

I have to agree with Deckbuilder and Jacksmacks. I find the amount of strategy posting and commentary on promo cards to be extremely irritating, especially when it comes from people like Shadow who are actually employed by AW.

Also I would like to point out that while in an ideal world you could just request to play without promos and everything would be fine. In the real world the people with the promos will use your lack of promos as an excuse to exclude you, or in some cases will refuse to play without promos without some serious pressure, potentially making the non-promo players feel like they are being unreasonable.

There is an elite aspect to this practice that cannot be denied and it's easier to disregard it if you are one of the elites.

Wiz I I am now and I am not an AW employee. Yes I am on several teams but I do this all for the community. One of the things with promos is most of these cards are good to print but a few need to be looked at further. The reason for not allowing them in tourney play is two fold
1 It keeps it more fair because not everybody has access to them
2 It gives the community a peek behind the curtains to see some of the ideas we are thinking abut.

If you look back several month ago I talked about it being ok to proxy cards you do not have for non competitive play. I do this all the time.  I am on of the biggest completest ever. I have bought and sleeved all of Arkham Horror in a day because I could.

The reason I talk about promos is to get feedback from the community about the preview cads in-case something needed to be corrected. I want to know what players and what is being used.

[Shad0w]

For what it's worth, I don't play with the promos I own, and much prefer to play tournament legal games. The power level on some of the promos is kinda high and without the buffering effect of a whole playtested set, the standout cards like gravikor, ballista, and imp familiar can really distort the game.

That new Warlord promo conjuration that lets you bring creatures into play with a guard token, for example. That card combos very efficiently with Panzergarde, and careful playtesting will be required to create a balanced tournament game once it's legal.

This is exactly the type info that I am looking for.

[Charmyna]

Promo's should only bother those who want them, otherwise released cards should be all that matters.  I like playing with both, the promo's give you a future peak and are fun to play, but my truly serious spell books are Promo free.

To give you an idea of balance, when playing against Charmyna I need all the help I can get, he plays a clean Promo free deck with errata's. (He has even allowed me) with my promo heavy decks (I.E. Ballista and all of the sexy cards) I still have not been able to beat him.

I understand the some of the feelings about Promo's, but only so far. I have bought the Core, FvM, CoK and both Tomes. I have gone to my FLGS and picked up some Promo's. I travel for a living so I get the chance to go into many game stores (25 so far this year) so I do have a leg up there. I didn't do the Kickstarter but I have made donation to Dice Tower recently.

I do agree with the E-Bay piece though. It does not appear to me that it is someone (like me or another average player) with a limited supply of Promo's but someone that has access to an endless supply of the cards and they are making large bank. Quite nasty IMHO. I do wish that they would cycle the Promo's in much quicker than what it appears is going to happen. At this point only the deer has become legit....

I am fine with promos unless someone plays more than one ballistae at a time - the ready marker mechanic is too devastatic otherwise. Therefore, I hope they become unique before they are released.

[Wiz-Pig]

Wiz I I am now and I am not an AW employee. Yes I am on several teams but I do this all for the community. One of the things with promos is most of these cards are good to print but a few need to be looked at further. The reason for not allowing them in tourney play is two fold
1 It keeps it more fair because not everybody has access to them
2 It gives the community a peek behind the curtains to see some of the ideas we are thinking abut.

If you look back several month ago I talked about it being ok to proxy cards you do not have for non competitive play. I do this all the time.  I am on of the biggest completest ever. I have bought and sleeved all of Arkham Horror in a day because I could.

The reason I talk about promos is to get feedback from the community about the preview cads in-case something needed to be corrected. I want to know what players and what is being used.

I'm sorry I didn't realize you weren't an employee, although you do seem to act as an official communication channel for AW. Am I wrong on that account as well? I can understand wanting to get feedback from players of the game as sort of a beta testing function. Being able to proxy cards makes a huge difference.

I've been swayed, I think as long as communication on the purpose and etiquette of playing or not playing promos is presented to people when they receive them along with the maybe even some encouragement such as "please feel free to proxy these cards and tell other players that they can too, if more people test these cards we can get a better sense of their balance and interaction with other cards in the game.", that there is no harm in this practice and in fact it can generate more interest in the game and reduce the need for future errata.

If it is however, and AW really does encourage the proxying of promos, I think they should provide printable files on the website for people to do so; similar to the ones that were released for the recently errata'd cards. If they feel the need to they could easily put a large ghosted "PROXY" over the art on the card.

[sIKE]

@Wiz-Pig

Great Idea! Big ole Promo water marked on the card would work very well....

[Stormmaster]

Actually that distinction for purpose does make me feel MUCH better about promos.

I was kind of anti promo because I don't want the game turning into a trading card game like Magic where you have to find those "rares", which give people that have access to the rares or the cash an advantage over most other players.

That was one of the draws (at least for me) about Mage Wars.  EVERYONE has access to the SAME card pool so no one has an advantage over another.  Plus you always know what you are up against.

As long as the cards are used to beta test cards they want to put in future expansions (that EVERYONE will have access to) and isn't used to give "some" people a competitive advantage over other people that don't have access to promos then the promos are a great tool to help the game.  Having thoroughly play tested cards before going to print is awesome.  One of the worst things they could do is print a card and then change it or nerf it after it goes live to the public, so promo/testing would help prevent that occurance.

So I've switch my anti promo thoughts to it will help the game, since not used for comp advantage.  Cool.

[ringkichard]

Since I'm now on record comparing Imp Familiar with two very heavy hitter promos (Gravikor and Ballista), I should mention that I think its major power comes against control: it acts as an action battery casting curses face down on the Warlock's own creature, then when the opponent comes into range, those curses get Enchantment Transfusioned to the opposing mage and then revealed as appropriate. If the Warlock also includes a Nullify or a Jinx in the payload, it can be very difficult to shake all the curses, and they penetrate through an opponent's nullify because of timing rules.

The Imp isn't intrinsically more dangerous than Fellella in this regard, but may be more survivable, and is more flexible because he can also cast attack spells, allows double dipping with curse ring, and the Warlock more able to put curses in his book than the Beastmaster.

For tournament play, there is also a potential issue: the imp can cast curses, but not other enchantments. A cheater might fudge this restriction.

I'm not saying the imp is OP (Wizard's Tower is stronger(!)), and Imp is vulnerable to both teleport-murder and single turn kill from focused fire. But as we get new enchantments and new ways to use them (transfusion), they seem like they're building momentum for combo book potential, and the Imp seems like a strong combo enabler that might be difficult to put back in the tube once it's printed for real.

Also, while I'm on my soap box, conjurations with ready markers should cost 4-5 more points, or come into play with their markers used

[Charmyna]

Since I'm now on record comparing Imp Familiar with two very heavy hitter promos (Gravikor and Ballista), I should mention that I think its major power comes against control: it acts as an action battery casting curses face down on the Warlock's own creature, then when the opponent comes into range, those curses get Enchantment Transfusioned to the opposing mage and then revealed as appropriate. If the Warlock also includes a Nullify or a Jinx in the payload, it can be very difficult to shake all the curses, and they penetrate through an opponent's nullify because of timing rules.

The Imp isn't intrinsically more dangerous than Fellella in this regard, but may be more survivable, and is more flexible because he can also cast attack spells, allows double dipping with curse ring, and the Warlock more able to put curses in his book than the Beastmaster.

For tournament play, there is also a potential issue: the imp can cast curses, but not other enchantments. A cheater might fudge this restriction.

I'm not saying the imp is OP (Wizard's Tower is stronger(!)), and Imp is vulnerable to both teleport-murder and single turn kill from focused fire. But as we get new enchantments and new ways to use them (transfusion), they seem like they're building momentum for combo book potential, and the Imp seems like a strong combo enabler that might be difficult to put back in the tube once it's printed for real.

Also, while I'm on my soap box, conjurations with ready markers should cost 4-5 more points, or come into play with their markers used

I agree that the Imp is very strong and might need some adjustment before release - especially because he is much tougher than Fellala/Huginn (i think life/armor is worth alot more than infinite defence since you can play around defences with unavoidable attacks but armor/life is always helpful).
Also a familiar that is able to cast curses in combination with transfusion is very dangerous, as you described it. And since the warlock has much better access to curses, such a warlock-familiar will be much more dangerous than Fellala! It might help if the Imp can only target non friendly units (will avoid the transfusion combo).