The best defense is a good offense

[The Dude]

Battle forge is the only spawnpoint I will use ATM.

[nitrodavid]

here is some ideal analysis.

battle forge is the equivalent to a mana crystal + a free quick action.
battle forge cost 8
crystal cost 5
so you spend 3 mana to get a free quick action per turn.

lair is equivalent to two mana flowers plus a full action.
lair cost 15 mana
2 flowers cost 10 mana
so you spend 5 mana to get a free FULL action per turn.

so in an ideal case battle forge and lair are similar in there efficiency. but I think I figured out the problem. at the start of the game you will never have enough mana to use 2 full action moves(lair), you will have enough for 2 quick actions (battle forge). perhaps if I changed my mindset to save spawn points for mid-late game where I want there turn advantage more then there mana advantage I could get spawn points to work...... I must go back to excel

[sIKE]

Seriously though, I'm glad we seem to be on the same page.

Swarms are a whole other deal though, you can not let them get out of hand....

[reddawn]

Seriously though, I'm glad we seem to be on the same page.

Swarms are a whole other deal though, you can not let them get out of hand....

Define swarm?

[Paleblue]

I think it all comes down to experience. Once you have an in depth knowledge of the game and good experience under your belt you can determine whether or not control or aggression is the best move on a game by game basis. If I can get away with Arcane ring and two mana crystals with my wizard I'm happy to do so. Like wise if i need to ramp up aggression I will do that too.

The player who wins is the one who can be flexible and plays better than he's opponent. I realise that some builds are more prominent at the moment, but each have a place- after all the winner of the origins tournament used a spawn point..

[nitrodavid]

really he used a temple that happened to be a spawn point, but I see the point.

[TricksterHat]

here is some ideal analysis.

battle forge is the equivalent to a mana crystal + a free quick action.
battle forge cost 8
crystal cost 5
so you spend 3 mana to get a free quick action per turn.

lair is equivalent to two mana flowers plus a full action.
lair cost 15 mana
2 flowers cost 10 mana
so you spend 5 mana to get a free FULL action per turn.

so in an ideal case battle forge and lair are similar in there efficiency. but I think I figured out the problem. at the start of the game you will never have enough mana to use 2 full action moves(lair), you will have enough for 2 quick actions (battle forge). perhaps if I changed my mindset to save spawn points for mid-late game where I want there turn advantage more then there mana advantage I could get spawn points to work...... I must go back to excel

Yeah, I did a similar calculation. Also, the mana is committed to creatures. When you have the mana, you don't have the actions and vice versa.

I have been thinking of clerics to the Asyrian temple. The clerics speed op the return and can be swithched to guards, when the enemy comes. So I need to summon more guarding creatures and several because the enemy has a big tempo-advantage. By the time the temple would start to pay off I would be out of creatures to summon.

What we need is an expendable spawnpoint. 5 mana (according to your calculations) for a single-use spawn point and 8 for one with channeling.

[nitrodavid]

"if you summon creatures" that's what I ment by ideal case.

temple 10 mana 1 channel. now each cleric is 5 mana and can add channel by 1. so they are effectively a mana crystal.
 the clerics psy them selves of in 5 turns and a temple and 2 clerics take 8 turns total to pay off (clerics pay themselves off before boosting temple).

the most efficient (reliable) spawn point booster is archers tower and garrison post. at 4 mana for 1 channel they pay off in 4 turns while still granting other buffs (quite possibly his trade for no arcane Chanel abilities).

 of course in the most ideal scenario gate of voltari and pentagram are the best but you can't control the mana you get.

man I should print a thesis on the amount of excel info I got

[jacksmack]

"if you summon creatures" that's what I ment by ideal case.

temple 10 mana 1 channel. now each cleric is 5 mana and can add channel by 1. so they are effectively a mana crystal.
 the clerics psy them selves of in 5 turns and a temple and 2 clerics take 8 turns total to pay off (clerics pay themselves off before boosting temple).

the most efficient (reliable) spawn point booster is archers tower and garrison post. at 4 mana for 1 channel they pay off in 4 turns while still granting other buffs (quite possibly his trade for no arcane Chanel abilities).

 of course in the most ideal scenario gate of voltari and pentagram are the best but you can't control the mana you get.

man I should print a thesis on the amount of excel info I got

I consider Clerics to have repaid themselves in 6 turns simply because they put mana in the action phase rather than the upkeep. While the temple summons in the ready stage.

Turn 1:
QC Temple and FC cleric.
Turn 2:
only 1 mana on temple during ready stage - temple cannot summon anything as min 2 is required.
cleric puts mana on temple that can be used in ready stage round 3.

When you summon a mana crystal, use harmonize you get the mana increase so its ready to USE the turn after.
Big difference imo.

[TricksterHat]

When you summon a mana crystal, use harmonize you get the mana increase so its ready to USE the turn after.
Big difference imo.

Did you mean spawnpoint? You can't use Harmonize on mana crystals right?


Well, this is my best attempt at a Priestess spawnpoint opening. I think it is doable, but I also suspect it can be shut down effectively, especially with early zone attacks.

T1: 20 mana, Temple of Asyra+Harmonize, 6m
T2: 16m+2 (on Temple), clericsx2, 8m
T3: 18m+2, Staff of Asyra+ some armor, 3m+4 (the clerics pray)
T4: 13m+6, Temple of Light+Gauntlets or Leather Boots or face-down enchantment, 1-2m (+8)
T5: 11/12m+10, Valshalla+attack, 0-1m

The clerics have prayed two times at the temple, making their effective cost 3. They should now be considered Blocks that happen to power Valshalla when they die. Opponent will still be ahead, but two daze-chances and Valshallas stun-chance will hopefully buy some time.

[sIKE]

You can't use Harmonize on mana crystals right?

Correct, neither Mana Crystal nor Mana Flower have the Channeling attribute.

[jacksmack]

Harmonize cannot be used on Crystals.
Not that was not my intention with the sentence - its missing something

When you summon a mana crystal, use harmonize "or cast a spawnpoint" you get the mana increase so its ready to USE the turn after.
Big difference imo.

[Texan85]

i am still trying to find a way to run a slow build with a tempo that will ramp up as the game progresses (i admit it, that i love spawnpoints) but every time i run the game over in my head i cant fathom how to eventually gain tempo when the player who chooses the early game faster tempo will be bullying you from the start.

Please tell me when you find one!

I think playing things like mana crystals/mana flowers and spawnpoints are a huge waste of time and mana, but hey that it just me.

I could be mistaken, but I think the upcoming Druid mage is one of those mages that becomes more powerful over time. It might be that "slow" build you are looking for.

That's not true, wizards and beastmasters will benefit very well from both of them, especially if you are not going against a super aggresive Mage or build that wants to play slow.