Temple Builds, Strong Combos, and Suggestions

[Cosworth]

Just played against my first ToL+HoBS opponent today. Tried to destroy ToL and succeeded after 4 turns - Then he whipped out a new one and killed my mage in turn 5. Not fun at all. Sure I could have played smarter but that build is so unforgiving. If you roll poorly for a couple of rounds you are toast.

It's one thing that it is a powerful combo, but what bothers me is that it requires no skill to pull off. This guy had played for 3 days and had looked through the cards searching for broken cards. Anything that combo's without upper limits is usually a sign of a potentially broken card. ToL fits that category. HoBS is merely the resource fueling the broken card.

Anyway my "vote" is for a nerf of one or both of the offending cards. Making HoBS level 2 sounds about right to me.

[Tacullu64]

@cosworth

Don't you think you should try a little harder before determining ToL and HoBS are broken? One game doesn't seem like very much evidence to me. Who knows, maybe you win your second game in a rout and decide they aren't strong enough.

Are you following the Stanley Cup? I am, in fact I'm a Blackhawks fan so I'm pretty excited and nervous right now. I guess the Hawks could have declared the Redwings just too good and conceded when they were down 1 game to 3 games in their second round match against Detroit. I mean come on, they were being dominated on the ice and had zero chance to comeback and win the series not to mention the cup, right? Yet here they are one game away from winning their 2nd Stanley Cup in 4 years. It's a good thing they didn't decide that Detroit was too good to be beaten. I'm sure the Bruins aren't planning on mailing in the results of game 6 Monday night.

Ok, now I'm sure it's to soon to give up after one loss to ToL and HoBS.

Go Hawks!

[nitrodavid]

I played 2 games this weekend as the temple priestess. its not that the temples are op it is that they provide such an easy way for an unskilled player (i put myself in this category) be so dominant. from turn 1 I had 10/12 squares under my control. also for 9+10+5+5 mana you get the equivalent of a free (double strength) pillar of light + spawn point + mana crystal +bear strength/rinohide/regrowth. its just hard to beat that efficiency.

to those people who say temple isn't overpowered you might be right. people who loose to temple just need help on strategies to beat them. so could you post a topic of an anti temple strategy because I am unable to find one. instead of being for or against nerf find somebody on the other side of the isle and ask for there advice/help

[ringkichard]

If people are testing Hand and ToL, we should probably be testing them in multiple types of book, too. I've got a Forcemaster list that isn't working right, so I'm probably going to try experimenting with more temples there. I've also got a Beastmaster that has 16 points devoted to ranged attacks (2x Gorgon), which is enough room to sub in temples, I bet.

Rather than make this a thread for complaining, lets do some Science! If you do better than usual with temples, let us know! If you discover secret anti-temple tech, tell me and no one else! Er... no, lets share!

[Tacullu64]

to those people who say temple isn't overpowered you might be right. people who loose to temple just need help on strategies to beat them. so could you post a topic of an anti temple strategy because I am unable to find one. instead of being for or against nerf find somebody on the other side of the isle and ask for there advice/help

I think this is a fair statement. I think it is a little more difficult than it first appears.

A game of mage wars is very fluid. There is a lot going on at the same time, many factors to consider. Much of the decision making is very situational. This makes it very difficult to say do "X" to beat "Y".

I believe the key to MW is correctly recognizing the state of the game and knowing if you should be advancing your cause or reacting to/ disrupting your opponents. Sounds simple but its not.

Padawanofthegames wrote an article titled the art of mage wars, its worth reading.

http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=12390.0


Here are a couple of quotes from Sun Tzu to give you something to think about that padawan didn't cover in his article.

“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

“All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.”
― Sun Tzu, Sun-Tzu: The Art of Warfare

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself,
you will succumb in every battle”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War, Special Edition



“Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory:
1 He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.
2 He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces.
3 He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks.
4 He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
5 He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War


Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

[Tacullu64]

If people are testing Hand and ToL, we should probably be testing them in multiple types of book, too. I've got a Forcemaster list that isn't working right, so I'm probably going to try experimenting with more temples there. I've also got a Beastmaster that has 16 points devoted to ranged attacks (2x Gorgon), which is enough room to sub in temples, I bet.

Rather than make this a thread for complaining, lets do some Science! If you do better than usual with temples, let us know! If you discover secret anti-temple tech, tell me and no one else! Er... no, lets share!

Good attitude. Good ideas.

[The Dude]

Damn it Tacullu! Here's to writing a part 2!

[Tacullu64]

Damn it Tacullu! Here's to writing a part 2!

Best get started then. Lots more to cover.

[nitrodavid]

I really don't think what I asked is hard to deliver. there are people in this thread saying "tol is such an easy build to counter if you are good" and "tol is such an op card/ play". I'm not saying give the whole 10 round play of the game. but you can suggest "if you sense temples, adjust your plan/books to include X,Y,Z" if it is so easy to counter imply easy solution. on the other hand if tol require a complex plan to defeat then perhaps tweaking is needed.

[cbalian]

toss a wall around the temple or forcehammer it or creature bash it into the ground, it's good yes but hardly broken or unbeatable.  I've never lost a game to a temple build and that is even with them having 5 temples out right away.  So many ways around them that they don't need any changes or nerfs.

If anything instead of nerfing them add a couple new cards in the next expansion set that would handle them, but with walls and +X to conjuration spells they sort of did that.

[nitrodavid]

first suggestion I can guess will be including some "intercept" creatures. they will protect your whole zone from ranged attacks (until they get stunned).

[Tacullu64]

I really don't think what I asked is hard to deliver. there are people in this thread saying "tol is such an easy build to counter if you are good" and "tol is such an op card/ play". I'm not saying give the whole 10 round play of the game. but you can suggest "if you sense temples, adjust your plan/books to include X,Y,Z" if it is so easy to counter imply easy solution. on the other hand if tol require a complex plan to defeat then perhaps tweaking is needed.

This game is not simple. There are a multitude of decisions to make every game. The only easy thing about this game is having fun.

Let's break down this topic into its simplest question without going into the details of the individual choices.

I will give you a multiple choice question and you give me the answer.

Your opponent is employing the ToL and HoBS priestess build and is spending his opening turns playing temples do you:

1.  Attack the ToL.

2.  Attack the Hands of Bim-Shalla.

3.  Attack both.

4.  Ignore the temples and focus on the enemy mage.

Without getting into the"how's" which strategy do you employ. Feel free to add an alternative if you have one.

[sdougla2]

Against a Priestess Daze/Stun lock strategy, I would try using multiple resilient creatures. A Lord of Fire is vulnerable to Daze/Stun lock, but 3 Dark Pact Slayers aren't going to be nearly as impressed with ToL.

[Paleblue]

I don't think Forcehammer is a reliable method to destroy the temple - at best you break even, worse your down mana. I have come up with a few different strategies with Mages I play which I think will be effective, need to test them though and I will post results later.

[nitrodavid]

@tacullu64 just to be clear I am in the group that doesn't know how to effectively deal with temples so I play with them myself. but after I beat everybody on the weekend with the exact same first 4 move strategy I think next time I will be vsing a few priestest.