The pace of Mage Wars over time

[Fentum]

I just read an old play by forum thread. There was lots of slow build up of equipment and conjurations. It felt like a 'nice' game with each player being allowed to build before contact.

In the few games I've played, there has been no time for this at all. Creatures and mages are in your face very quickly and early mana spent on support items puts you at an immediate disadvantage. Is this just local group think, or has the pace of contact stepped up?

Was a build up style the design intention? I guess a wide choice of styles was the design intention. Can a slower build up work vs a rush? I feel a bit sad that I am missing out on building nice crystals and planting a garden of flowers...

I run that slower build when playing solo vs a solo rush (solo as in I have no friends, not a solo build) and the rush wins by making the build too reactive. Against real people, I always face a rush.

Now don't get me wrong. I love this game. I just wondered if a slower build is a real option in the meta and if it is working as intended, or are those pesky players being overly aggressive!

[MrSaucy]

I just read an old play by forum thread. There was lots of slow build up of equipment and conjurations. It felt like a 'nice' game with each player being allowed to build before contact.

In the few games I've played, there has been no time for this at all. Creatures and mages are in your face very quickly and early mana spent on support items puts you at an immediate disadvantage. Is this just local group think, or has the pace of contact stepped up?

Was a build up style the design intention? I guess a wide choice of styles was the design intention. Can a slower build up work vs a rush? I feel a bit sad that I am missing out on building nice crystals and planting a garden of flowers...

I run that slower build when playing solo vs a solo rush (solo as in I have no friends, not a solo build) and the rush wins by making the build too reactive. Against real people, I always face a rush.

Now don't get me wrong. I love this game. I just wondered if a slower build is a real option in the meta and if it is working as intended, or are those pesky players being overly aggressive!

With MW, you never want to give the opposing mage too much time to develop a winning strategy. When you are new to MW and just starting out, you will generally spend a lot time of building up before contact. But as you learn more about the game your pace of play will naturally pick up. You will learn which conjurations/enchantments you don't need immediately, which ones you need before initiating the attack, things like that.

Keep in mind that an early start doesn't always guarantee victory. The element of surprise only goes so far.  I have seen and been a part of games where the person "winning" early on in the game ultimately loses because they didn't set up a good foundation early on or because their initial strike wasn't enough and the mage on the defensive recovered completely. Early mana spent on support items only puts you at an immediate disadvantage if you invest in the wrong things at the wrong time.

I think MW was designed to grant you freedom. You can select any spell at any time. You are in complete control of your pace and your resources. A slower build up can indeed work vs a rush. But the great thing is you can adjust your buildup on the fly. Keep in mind the enemy mage would probably want to build nice crystals and planting a garden of flowers too... but the threat of YOU rushing THEM keeps that from happening most of the time.

Slow builds run the risk of being too reactive just as fast builds run the risk of running out of steam and lacking proper defenses. It is merely a trade-off. If the slow build reacts properly but is able to exploit the rushers lack of defenses, the slow build can win. If the rush build is well orchestrated and constantly keeps the pressure on, the rush build can win.

You say you are always facing rush when you play against people. What mages are these people playing? The mage has a lot to do with it.

I think the game is designed with enough freedom, balance, and variability such that any build can beat any build. Simply put, build A won't always beat build B. It all depends on who plays their build better.

[Fentum]

Hey Mr Saucy, thanks for your thoughtful reply. I agree with all your comments.

I have been gaming for thirty years or so, and I'm a big fan of wargames, so before I ever first played Mage Wars, I looked at lots of the cards and thought about strategies. I kinda bypassed the slow build learning curve, and just whacked out a Steelclaw Grizzly right away ( well, after a ring of beasts!) and so on.

It does look to me to be a well balanced game, and the 'rush running out of steam' can certainly happen. Multiple viable options seem a good indicator of a well designed game.

I just would have liked to have experienced a more gentle style for a while, but I am my own worst enemy in that regard. I don't have many mates who are into games, so thus far I have only played one guy using standard decks. My febrile mind has a lovely air  wizard deck sorted out. I like tricksy builds in all my games. 

[Wiz-Pig]

There may be some relief in sight for you. It is hard to say until we have all the cqrds on the table so to speak but the new set seems to have a heavy focus on defensive strategies which could slow the pace of the game. Guardian Angel, Dwarf Penzerguard, Gargoyle, Wall of Iron and other Control Strategy cards like the new giant spider and surging wave. There is a real limit to how much you can build without engaging the enemy in this game, but their are multiple ways to effectively engage the enemy, you done necessarily have to meet aggression with aggression there are always defensive and trickery based options as well and it looks like this next set will make those options more effective.

[The Dude]

Please note that this is from my own experience as Mage Warring ^.^

I have noticed that the more inexperienced of a player will try one of two strategies:

1. rush/swarm

2. build/turtle

While these strategies may work some of time, most tuned spellbooks have a balance of rush damage (near the end of the game), with some early building. Rushing early does have the surprise avantage, but that tactic alone will not win you the game, as the more experienced spellbook will have at least some position control, which can wreck the aggro player. AS players evolve, they start to realize this, but I think that it's only by unsuccessful attempts that they figure this out. The smart player (does not pertain to experience) will realize what happens after losing, and "fix" it. It is this learning experience that brings about the higher strategies, not the experience alone. This is what I find so powerful about the game, and why I rank it higher than other customizable games.

This is to speak that it is not the cards that predict the meta, it the experience of the players that determine what you play, and how you will play the game. I have seen some very successful turtling builds, as well as some very successful aggressive builds, but those builds were wrought from experience, and not the cards alone.

Your "pace" will not quicken, but your intuitive responses to the opponents pace will determine your own, with experience. Let me give you an example. If two players, both given the same solo warlock build, were put into a game together, with one having more experience than the other, who will win? In most games, some amount of variance will be involved, and it could be said that whoever had the higher dice rolls in this game would be the over all winner. This is not true. The more experienced player, when noticing that the opponent is going "aggressive", will back off, and play defense. He is lessening his pace to keep up with the game. While the newer player may rush to the opponent by round two, the more experienced player will have built a conjuration or two, and have a teleport in hand, waiting for the shitstorm to be overcame.

I am not simply saying that the opponent controls how you will pace your game, but it will always have some effect. Pace will different even you play with the same build for a thousand games, if those games are played by different opponents.

On a side note: THE NEW BEAST MASTER IS INCREDIBAD. The inherent marked for death and fast abilities make me so happy . I do think it will be far more difficult to build with her in mind than her male counterpart, but time will tell, as will the cards!

[MrSaucy]

One thing I forgot to say is that it isn't just the slow/controlling builds that need to be reactive. Any successful build has to be reactive. A build that can't react will be very easy to beat. Additionally, it isn't just the fast/rush builds that need to be aggressive. If slow/controlling builds don't have any aggression they won't win the game. So, as you can see, any build needs to be able to 1) kill the opposing mage, and 2) react to the opposing mage.

Let us just say that MW only had 2 builds, rush and control. This is a gross simplification. If everyone played rush, everybody would know how to play against rush and not how to play against control. Anybody who starts playing control would then have an advantage, so control builds will start to emerge since they will be successful. If you look at the opposite case, everyone playing control, the same thing happens. Everyone knows how to play against control but not against rush. Suddenly, anybody who plays rush has an advantage and more rush players emerge. (fun fact: this is just like how environmentally stable strategies (ESS) evolve in nature.)

The point is you never have to worry about 1 build becoming overwhelming popular and dominant and ruining the game's diversity. You will reach some equilibrium point.

[MrSaucy]

This is to speak that it is not the cards that predict the meta, it the experience of the players that determine what you play, and how you will play the game. I have seen some very successful turtling builds, as well as some very successful aggressive builds, but those builds were wrought from experience, and not the cards alone.

On a side note: THE NEW BEAST MASTER IS INCREDIBAD. The inherent marked for death and fast abilities make me so happy . I do think it will be far more difficult to build with her in mind than her male counterpart, but time will tell, as will the cards!

Well said.

I am also interested in the new Beastmaster. I didn't know they were creating different versions of the same mage! I think that is just awesome.

[Fentum]

This is to speak that it is not the cards that predict the meta, it the experience of the players that determine what you play, and how you will play the game. I have seen some very successful turtling builds, as well as some very successful aggressive builds, but those builds were wrought from experience, and not the cards alone.

Agreed.