Beastmaster vs Ranged

[FernandoKL]

So, I was playing yesterday with a Ranged focused Walord, and my friend with a Beastmaster (Classic V2.0 build). And the duel was a lot frustrating (for him  :silly: ) because everytime he sent his creatures to attack me (and my conjurations) I shooted him with my Sniper, Ivarium Bow, Ludwig, or than double strike them with Sir Corazin.
And when he came with the Bear, I quicksand him and he sink down to hell!  :evil:

He ended the duel with the conclusion that there's no way for a beastmaster (with no ranged units) to beat a ranged focused mage.

I was trying to find some discussion about that issue around here and did not find it. So, I'm making it for you guys to help me (and him) with these strategies.

1) I think maybe is a good thing for the beastmaster to wait until it has a good number of creature gathered before beggining the attack (to overwhelm the ranged creatures), but then I could also (in this time) gather more ranged creatures, like goblins slingshoters. So, don't know if this could help.

2) If the BM casts a lot of falcons to pass through my melle (that were defending the ranged units), of course the ranged would focus in the flying and beat them down.

3) Maybe use an Elemental wand with jet stream or Geyser to keep dazing and/or pushing my creatures would be a good tactic, but he didn't have an elemental wand in his deck. Maybe i'll put one in the BM deck. Would you use this tactic?


What else would you recomend us (young padawans   ) to do in that situations??  

Thanks!!
(And sorry for some bad english usage, I'm from Brazil, and english is my 2nd language)

[DaveW]

This sounds a lot like the battle that I had (as BM) last weekend. My opponent was trying out a Warlord with a huge focus on ranged units and I had a pretty typical animal collection (though with an Angel added into the mix).

He set up his slingers and a hammer with whichever ranged guy gets triplestrike at range 1 as a full round attack on the other side of walls of pikes. I initially built up several smaller creatures and kept them out of range of all of his forces until turn three or four, moving them toward him after that as quickly as I could.

Over the next several turns, I took down one of the walls as I moved the creatures, brought out others (including my angel) and got many of them within the same zones as his mage, creatures and conjurations. My angel picked up two wrath markers, so his mage left his side of the board to try to take it out alone (and did a good job, tossing a pair of boulders at it one turn, taking it down to one life point and out of the game for several turns while it healed / I healed it).

He focused on equipping and enchanting his mage while I kept bringing out the animals. My original set of animals took out his ranged troops, and then moved back to help the others that were harassing his mage on the near side of the board. My BM never crossed the midpoint of the board.

He didn't roll very well with his initial ranged attacks, and nearly all of the animals got through to the ranged guys' zones (many with 2-4 damage markers on them). I think that he should have concentrated on individual animals until they died. He also probably had better options for spells at times. Most importantly, he got distracted by the angel which caused him to stop playing his ranged game.

It also was his first attempt with the warlord, so he still needed to tweak his spellbook. We both are fairly new to the game, but I hope this helps.

[sdougla2]

Ranged creatures tend to be vulnerable in melee, so the BM should just kill the ranged guys. Boltstorm in particular only gets to do his triplestrike attack at range 1, and is incredibly vulnerable to getting rushed. If you have big creatures with 3+ armor, you can just run through Wall of Pikes. If you're using small creatures, use Tooth and Nail to bypass the armor, and tear down the wall. Another option is to just Teleport (or Force Push) the creature you want to kill through the Wall of Pikes. Flying creatures are easier to target with ranged creatures, but they also bypass walls.

Another option is blocking line of sight with Wall of Thorns or Fog Bank.

Use Agony on Boltstorm or anyone else that gets multiple attacks.

Focus down one creature before trying to kill another.

One thing I've thought about but never seen is putting a Sniper in a corner with a Watchtower, then walling him in with Walls of Stone. That could be annoying, and you'd need to either force combat away from that area, or use flying creatures to attack him, but Falcons wouldn't last long against an 8 dice attack...

[FernandoKL]

Thank you guys!

Yeah, I think there isn't an "easy way" to deal with that situation. Maybe I'll put some other pair of Walls in BM deck, one big flyer, and focus on medium ground creatures, that can handle 2 or 3 attacks before they die.

[reddawn]

Every aggressive deck should carry an emergency Teleport to get out of conjurations that afflict Restrain.  Quicksand-ing a high level creature is rather expensive, while a single 3 mana Teleport solves that problem instantly.  Otherwise, you're wasting too many actions trying to escape.

I'd recommend getting to the enemy mage very quickly in the beginning.  For example, try this opening:

T1: Move twice, Quickcast Ring of Beasts
T2: Move twice, quickcast Fox
T3: Pet Bear if there's no wall, Pet Gorilla if there is, Rouse the Beast

You should be within attack range of the enemy mage in either case.  You could probably substitute Cervere in there if you wanted the advantage of a defense and Fast, so you could attack from a diagonal.  Ranged units usually have poor armor, so you wouldn't have to worry about your attacks wiffing.

Speaking of attacks, I'd also recommend some attack spells.  Hurl Boulder is probably the best bet since Fireball costs 3x the points for a BM.

[ringkichard]

There's a reason my Beastmaster book has three teleports in it.
The first is to pull in ranged attackers.
The second is to dismiss quicksand.
The third is to send away slow creatures or capture fleeing targets.
I guess that's actually 4 reasons.
Work with me here.

I also use Force Hammer for my attack spell because it can smash up incorporeal problems like poison gas cloud as well as doing a bunch of damage to corporeal conjurations like stone walls and temples.

[FernandoKL]

Thank you Red and Ringkichard!

I was just at this moment trying to put a teleport in my BM Spellbook, with some other things. But I'm having (a lot of) trouble with "What-to-remove" to open space for them!!!  :S

But 3 Teleports Ringkichard?!!  :blink:  12 spellbook points?  Can you post your spellbook for me to see what you putted in (and out)!

[reddawn]

I wouldn't recommend 3.  1 should be enough.  12 points is a huge amount to commit to a fairly marginal situation.  There are far more efficient solutions bookwise for ranged units, like Force Push.  Teleport is just the best way to get around conjurations that restrain...other than that, it's really expensive if you're actually using it for more than an emergency.

You can also use Eagle Wings.  It's in-school after all; just reveal it during the Counter Spell step and Quicksand or Tanglevine will be countered due to having an illegal target.

[FernandoKL]

Yeah, I finished messing around with my spellbook,
Eagle wings was already there, but I added Agony, 1 Teleport, Tarok, Maim Wings (last two for flying troubles), Fellella (to help protecting the animals), Harmonize (For Lair, or mage), Unicorn (Regen ALL the Animals!). But had to take out some attacks and healings!  But I think it's more versatile now! =)

Thanks again for your support guys!  It was very helpful!

[malgor]

very helpful discussion.  I've been working on my warlock curse deck and not able to find as many opponents as i'd like, but beastmaster is def in my short list of new decks to build and try.  these tips will be used for sure.

[ringkichard]

Thank you Red and Ringkichard!

I was just at this moment trying to put a teleport in my BM Spellbook, with some other things. But I'm having (a lot of) trouble with "What-to-remove" to open space for them!!!  :S

But 3 Teleports Ringkichard?!!  :blink:  12 spellbook points?  Can you post your spellbook for me to see what you putted in (and out)!

Up front, I should say that this is a non-standard Beastmaster build. Some of these irregularities will be innovations (I hope!), and some will be errors (I'm sure).

Because of the limitations of the CardGameDB (no forcemaster update) the Force Hammers have been replaced with lightning bolts in this list.

Deck Created with CardGameDB.com Mage Wars Deck Builder

Mage:
Beastmaster (Core)


Total Cards: (57)

Total Spellbook Cost: (120)

Attack: (2)
Lightning Bolt (Core) x2 (actually Force Hammer x2)

Conjuration: (0)

Creature: (12)
Bitterwood Fox (Core) x3
Steelclaw Grizzly (Core) x2
Timber Wolf (Core) x2
Valshalla, Lightning Angel (Core) x1
Thunderift Falcon (Core) x3
Fellella, Pixie Familiar (Core) x1

Enchantment: (19)
Agony (Core) x3
Bear Strength (Core) x3
Cheetah Speed (Core) x2
Jinx (Core) x2
Maim Wings (Core) x1
Mongoose Agility (Core) x2
Nullify (Core) x2
Rhino Hide (Core) x2
Vampirism (Core) x2

Equipment: (9)
Elemental Cloak (Core) x1
Enchanter's Ring (Core) x1
Gauntlets of Strength (Core) x1
Leather Boots (Core) x1
Mage Staff (Core) x2
Regrowth Belt (Core) x1
Ring of Beasts (Core) x1
Bearskin (Core) x1

Incantation: (15)
Battle Fury (Core) x3
Dispel (Core) x2
Dissolve (Core) x4
Shift Enchantment (Core) x1
Teleport (Core) x3
Seeking Dispel (Core) x2

Wall: (0)

[reddawn]

After some thought, why not just give a Grizzly Eagle Wings?  I can't see Valshalla operating as well with the BM as with the Priestess. With the Priestess, she offers tension between killing Clerics and killing her; in your build, there is no such tension and an opponent could just focus fire her without punishment.

I mean, it's an interesting idea, but competitively speaking I'm not so sure it would work out.  I think including a couple Clerics to support a Gizzly, rather than a few small critters to support Valshalla, could be a better idea and less painful on your 120 point book limit.  I think an "Animal Cult" build like your has potential, but I would recommend starting small with Clerics.  I'd also recommend the combination of Wand of Healing and Staff of Beasts; it would make your bear nigh-unkillable.

[FernandoKL]

Wow, that's what I call boldness, not even a Lair?  :blink:

Maybe I'll try your book, it seems quite agressive but also versatile.  

[ringkichard]

After some thought, why not just give a Grizzly Eagle Wings?  I can't see Valshalla operating as well with the BM as with the Priestess. With the Priestess, she offers tension between killing Clerics and killing her; in your build, there is no such tension and an opponent could just focus fire her without punishment.

I mean, it's an interesting idea, but competitively speaking I'm not so sure it would work out.  I think including a couple Clerics to support a Gizzly, rather than a few small critters to support Valshalla, could be a better idea and less painful on your 120 point book limit.  I think an "Animal Cult" build like your has potential, but I would recommend starting small with Clerics.  I'd also recommend the combination of Wand of Healing and Staff of Beasts; it would make your bear nigh-unkillable.

I thought we were talking about teleport.  

You're right that the Valshalla costs 6 more deck points over another Steelclaw. And actually, if I cut the angel I'd probably add in an Eagle Wings, another Force Hammer (or maybe 2 Geysers), a Poisoned Blood, and I'd swap the Bearskin for a Dragonscale Hauberk.

But in mana cost during play, Valshalla is actually a point cheaper than a pet Steelclaw (the book's other major opening), and the opportunity cost of the Eagle Wings on the Griz is Vampirism or Bear Strength or whatever on Valshalla.

My thinking is that I pay for book choices at the end of the game, when I run out of spells that I want to cast. I pay for creatures at the start of the game, and if I can win the first engagement decisively I can end the game before I have to pay for my book at all.

Similarly, in this book, I'd rather have 2x Heal than 1x Heal and 1x Mage Wand. Wands make sense for control books because they're re-useable and more versatile, but they're also slower and more mana-expensive than just stacking an extra heal in the deck, so I'm not in love with them for an agro book that needs to prioritize economy and speed.

Also, maybe things are different in other metas (mine's small and new), but wands seem to be choice targets for enemy dissolves. This deck, for example, packs 4x Dissolve, and has no intention of allowing an enemy to use a wand unless it's very late game (and if it's very late game, I've probably lost anyway).

All that said, here's a rough outline of the plan with Valshalla:
[ol]
  [li](19) Walk, Ring of Beasts, Fox. -6[/li]
  [li](22) Walk, Fox, -4[/li]
  [li](27) Walk, Fox, Disruption to their anti creature strategy, whatever it is. (Agony or Disolve or Teleport, depending on who the enemy is). Foxes get into combat. [/li] -9 or -10.
  [li](26) Valshalla. -21. First fox probably dies, Valshalla hopefully gets a counter. Nullify or Vampirism depending on available mana.[/li]
[/ol]

The version of this that uses the Falcons is similar, but with less disruption or less falcons.

Valshalla can obviously be cast on turn 3 if there's no good disruption target, but the goal is to provide the tension you talked about between killing foxes and attacking Valshalla. Asyran Clerics have healing and armor, but Foxes and Falcons have teeth and talons. And in this book, with no Lair, no Mana Flowers, and not even a Harmonize or a Moonglow Amulet, I'm looking for every point of damage I can get.