Reverse Attack and Defense

[gw]

Hi,

stumbled upon the following question and only found an unanswered similar problem.
Question is :

1. [mwcard=MWSTX1CKC06]Guardian Angel[/mwcard] attacks Mage.
2. Mage reveals [mwcard=MW1E34]Reverse Attack[/mwcard]
Can the Guardian Angel roll a Defense against his own attack ?

Irritation :
RA states : "the attacker, who now becomes the target for that attack for the next 2 steps (roll dice & dmg)"
Does that mean we either a) already left the avoid attack step (unlikely imho) or b) during the avoid attack step the Guardian Angel hasn't become the target yet (likely imho) ? Both would mean "No, he can't defend his own RA'ed attack."

similar discussion I found:
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=15395.msg49729#msg49729

[Boocheck]

No, he cant.

[mwcard=MW1E34]Reverse Attack[/mwcard]

There is 8 steps, each you have to resolve if you are attacking. Card clearly states, that you have to take 2 of these steps which are already after step in which you can use defense.

[Zuberi]

I apologize that the previous thread left the question with an ambiguous answer for you. iNano78 referenced an old thread that no longer seems to have accurate information. Meanwhile, Kharhaz was correct that if you follow the normal rules for avoiding an attack nobody would get hit, however this ignores the fact that Reverse Attack specifically states that you will go through steps 3 and 4 with the original attacker as the target of the attack before proceeding onto step 5 with the original target back as the target. Specific card text overrides general rules.

Thus, the answer to the question, like Boocheck stated, is that during step 2 the target does not change. After reverse attack is revealed, you finish step 2, and then proceed to roll dice and apply damage and effects with the original attacker as the new target for these things. The original attacker will not get a chance to use any defenses because they do not get an avoid attack step while they are the target of the reversed attack. Then, after damage has been applied, you will proceed to step 5: additional strikes with the original target back on the receiving end.

[iNano78]

I apologize that the previous thread left the question with an ambiguous answer for you. iNano78 referenced an old thread that no longer seems to have accurate information. Meanwhile, Kharhaz was correct that if you follow the normal rules for avoiding an attack nobody would get hit, however this ignores the fact that Reverse Attack specifically states that you will go through steps 3 and 4 with the original attacker as the target of the attack before proceeding onto step 5 with the original target back as the target. Specific card text overrides general rules.

Thus, the answer to the question, like Boocheck stated, is that during step 2 the target does not change. After reverse attack is revealed, you finish step 2, and then proceed to roll dice and apply damage and effects with the original attacker as the new target for these things. The original attacker will not get a chance to use any defenses because they do not get an avoid attack step while they are the target of the reversed attack. Then, after damage has been applied, you will proceed to step 5: additional strikes with the original target back on the receiving end.

I'm more confused than ever.  Since the original attacker is only the defender for steps 3-4 (roll and resolve damage and effects), it seems a Damage Barrier and Counterstrike on the original defender would trigger (steps 6 and 7), adding insult to injury, as it were.  e.g. Creature A melee attacks Creature B, who has a Damage Barrier (e.g. [mwcard=MW1Q05]Demonhide Armor[/mwcard] or [mwcard=FWE02]Circle of Fire[/mwcard]), a guard token, and Reverse Attack.  Reverse Attack takes over during the Avoid Attack step, so Creature A becomes the defender for steps 3-4.  Then Damage Barrier kicks in against Creature A, and finally Creature B Counterstrikes and removes the guard token.  Nasty!

[Puddnhead]

It does make sense, though.  5 mana is an attack spell and that's the reveal cost on Reverse attack.  So it would make sense that you get to pay mana to have an extra attack.  I may have to look more closely at including this card in future spellbooks

[iNano78]

It does make sense, though.  5 mana is an attack spell and that's the reveal cost on Reverse attack.  So it would make sense that you get to pay mana to have an extra attack.  I may have to look more closely at including this card in future spellbooks

It's a lot better than a 5-mana attack spell.  It's a 2-for-1, since you negate the opponent's attack AND hit them back.  The power level is dependent on the opponent's attack, but another way to look at it is it's like healing + attacking in one (after being attacked) ... except better because your creature won't be destroyed before getting around to healing. Oh, and your creature still gets its own action, so you don't even waste an action on the turn it triggers (e.g. could Reverse Attack and then attack normally immediately afterward). 

The downside is you don't get to choose when it triggers - e.g. could be against a healthy creature with lots of armour that is attacking with its weakest attack, or could even get discarded to an Unavoidable attack.

[gw]

Thanks 

[Zuberi]

A Counterstrike does indeed still occur from the original defender, just like if the attack was avoided by a normal defense roll. However, Damage Barriers do not occur when an attack is avoided and so will not occur when Reverse Attack is used.

I actually had a fully healed Samandriel die from attacking a guarding Steelclaw Grizzly which only had 2 life left because it also had a Reverse Attack on it. Taught me a valuable lesson.