November 21, 2024, 01:44:10 PM

Author Topic: Push Direction  (Read 17576 times)

Wildhorn

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Re: Push Direction
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2014, 08:06:35 AM »
There is no "away" in Force Push.

Shad0w

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Re: Push Direction
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2014, 09:14:59 AM »
There is no "away" in Force Push.

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You choose direction for FP  8)
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Zuberi

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Re: Push Direction
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2014, 02:44:28 PM »
My thinking still goes back to the sentence "Unless the effect says otherwise, the Pushed creature must move one zone away in the opposite direction from the source of the Push." All of the rules within that sentence come after the conditional statement "Unless the effect says otherwise," and are thus ONLY applicable if the effect doesn't specify it's own rules for direction and distance. When the effect does specify such information, then you ignore the normal rule and completely replace it with the effect in question.

Force Push actually does a very good job at replacing the rules within that sentence. The card specifies both the Distance (still one zone) and the Direction (of your choice) in a very clear and concise manner. If you ignore the entire codex sentence I quoted, because it's conditional statement has not been met, and replace it with the card text, everything makes perfect sense.

The confusing spell, for me, would actually be [mwcard=FWI04] Force Wave.[/mwcard] This spell seems to replace the normal Push rule regarding direction with the line "away in the same direction." Unfortunately, this line is not very clear. By "away" do they mean in the opposite direction or just an increase in distance from the caster? I tend to rule for the former case, but I can see people choosing the latter legitimately.

ringkichard

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Re: Push Direction
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2014, 06:55:40 PM »
Ok, here's a big list of every push effect in the game right now, as far as I can remember them, and how I've always played them. Card images are mouseover-linked to the titles.

[mwcard=FORCEMASTERABILITYOUTLINE]Forcemaster Ability Card[/mwcard] -
You always push toward the Forcemaster. At range 2, if you're on a diagonal, you can chose either of the two zones that would make the target closer to you.

[mwcard=MW1C40] Whirling Spirit[/mwcard] -
Standard push. Since it's a melee attack, it's always coming from the same zone as the target, so you chose any direction because they're all away.

[mwcard=MW1A09] Jet Stream[/mwcard] -
Standard push. Always pushes away, again with the diagonal choice at range 2.

[mwcard=FWI04] Force Wave[/mwcard] -
Nearly standard push. All creatures must go away, and it's range 1-1, so there's no diagonal choice.

[mwcard=MW1I12] Force Push[/mwcard] -
"In the direction of your choice." You can push them toward you, away from you, whatever.

[mwcard=FWI03] Force Bash[/mwcard] -
Again, "In the direction of your choice." Bash them as you see fit.

[mwcard=FWI07] Repulse[/mwcard] -
Random direction, like it says.

[mwcard=DNC21] Thornlasher[/mwcard] -
Snatch is Toward.

The general rule is that if it says, "Push" then you must push away. If it says "Push away" then you must push away. If it says, "Push Toward" then you push toward, and if it says "Push in the direction of your choice" you push in the direction of your choice. This isn't complicated, don't make it any harder.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 07:08:09 PM by ringkichard »
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Zuberi

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Re: Push Direction
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2014, 08:37:32 PM »
I worry that I may be pulling things off topic, but I am going to play devil's advocate a little bit. The general rule is not that Push means to Push away, as you say ringkichard. It is actually much more specific than that. It is push 1 zone in the opposite direction from the caster. Thus, when Force Wave says to Push them 1 zone away in the same direction, it does not necessarily mean the same thing as the general rule. "Away" can have a much broader meaning than the general rule for Push.

First off, it seems to me that Force Wave was worded that way to ensure that you could not move different creatures in different directions. This, however, would imply that such a thing was possible to begin with. If you don't ever have a choice in the direction pushed, how could you ever possibly move two creatures in different directions? Since the spell is a range 1-1 you'll never have the issues of the caster standing at the diagonal OR the issue of them being in the same zone. Thus, neither of those situations will ever occur to give you a choice in direction. The only other possible thing to give you a choice is if the effect itself allows you a choice.

Now, the word "away" can legitimately be defined as increasing the distance between two objects, rather than  moving in the opposite direction. Thus, it does seem like a reasonable ruling to say when you use Force Wave you can choose any direction to push them in except into the caster's zone, but then all of the creatures have to be moved in that direction.

Personally, I would tend to still use the spell as pushing in the opposite direction just to avoid any hassle or argument, however if someone else wanted to use it otherwise I can see their point and would not be able to argue against it. I could actually even see someone arguing that the text on Force Wave means pushing the creatures "away" from the target zone instead of "away" from the caster, which would actually allow them to be pushed in any direction including towards the caster. I don't personally believe this was the intent, and would probably argue against such a case, but it isn't completely without merit either.

I apologize if I am making this more complicated than it needs to be, ringkichard. I just thought that since this was a thread about ambiguities with Push effects, I would throw in one I think really is not covered very well.

ringkichard

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Re: Push Direction
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2014, 10:24:54 PM »
I guess you could make the argument, but you have to read the card's use of "away" as substantially different than rulebook's use of "the Pushed creature must move one zone away in the opposite direction from the source of the Push." I think if the card meant "Not Toward" it would say that, and further I read "in the opposite direction from the source of the Push" as clarifying the meaning of Away, since Away is an English word in this circumstance, and not a defined codex rules word.

Given the very restrictive range, I think it's clear from context what's meant, but I'll concede there's room for debate, especially because in my interpretation the word "away" is functionally superfluous and only serves to clarify. I thought for sure this had been asked previously, but if it had, I can't find it now.

Oh, and I forgot
[mwcard=MWSTX1CKA01] Surging Wave[/mwcard]
and
[mwcard=FWC13] Selesius, the East Wind[/mwcard]
in my push list. Both are basic pushes.
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wtcannonjr

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Re: Push Direction
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2014, 05:51:22 AM »
For me it would be clearer to have a Codex definition for Push/Pull effects with Push meaning away from the caster and Pull meaning towards the caster. Then spell effects could be described as Push, Pull, or both.

What always confused me somewhat was that pushing towards something is used in the context of someone else doing the pushing. "I push the ball towards Jim" means that Jim is not the one 'pushing'. Whereas, pulling towards something is a term used when you are moving something towards yourself. It is not common syntax to say "I pushed the chair towards me" and it feels a little counterintuitive. However, the intent seems clear now with how this effect works in the game.
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Wildhorn

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Re: Push Direction
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2014, 07:23:45 AM »
You assume it is your mage who is doing the push, while it is the magical force that you created (behind your target) that does it. So pushing toward you is perfectly normal and logic.

jacksmack

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Re: Push Direction
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2014, 09:37:48 AM »
For me it would be clearer to have a Codex definition for Push/Pull effects with Push meaning away from the caster and Pull meaning towards the caster. Then spell effects could be described as Push, Pull, or both.

There is no pull effect in the game.
(The forcemaster ability called force pull is a push effect with limitations.)

Related to what you talk about we got:
Push.
Snatch.

Push is clearly defined in the codex, the same goes for snatch.
All cards such as the incantation "Force Push" that can do more than the codex clearly defines it in the text on the card.

At one point i hadnt bothered reading the specific codex for push - or i had forgot it.
I was basing push effect (jet stream mainly) by how the Incantation "Force Push" worked. (i chose direction regardless.)
In one game i learned it the hard way and i turned things upside down from that point - taking the codex as being the standard and exceptions on each card overruling it.

Really... its fine as it is.