What the holy hand grenade of antioch is going on with the necromancer?

[DeckBuilder]

How does Necromancer cope with the Beastmaster Swarm build stickied?
6 Falcons + 4 Rajan's Fury = dead Necromancer
Etherian Lifetree and Renewing Rain for Pestilence delay.
Then there are those Thorns my Foxes move fast through.
You wanna damage race me? First you have to catch me!
Cheetah Speed + Mongoose Agility, watch as I move 2, summon another Falcon and cast another Fury...

The more I think about it, the more I think fears that Resilient is too powerful are totally unfounded.
If Cervere was Resilient, now that would be SICK!
You need to treat Resilient as part of a package of Slow/Lumbering + Bloodthirsty + Nonliving + often Pest
That's a lot of generally debilitating traits to offset.

4 Brutes by turn 5 all summoned from Near Centre with 14 Channel for Frenzies etc is simply awesome.
Shaggoth Zora is good value just as is, even without its ability to eat a doomed Brute who has attacked.
But all the other Pests? Meh. Just cleverly designed Fool's Gold ("ooh infinite armour!") with fatal flaws.

Despite my hopes (see Etherian Lifetree & Corrode thread), Swarm is still a nice idea not fully realised.
Both "Me And My Buddy" and "Send Forth The Elites!" (Raptor Vines, Brutes) are sadly still more viable.

On the positive side, the gap is narrowing and Swarm is stronger now. And it sure is fun in casual play.
I have high hopes this will all change very shortly.

[IndyPendant]

In reality, I believe only the 5 non-Pest Zombies (4 Brutes, 1 Shaggoth) are good
Maybe 1 Plague Servant + Sacrificial Altar to leverage Eternal Servant and Plague Master
Otherwise the concept of a Slow/Lumbering Pest Swarm is flawed vs. competitive builds

I just thought I'd comment: the Necromancer has become my third-favourite mage (after Beastmaster and Priestess), and I agree with most of what you posted DB--except for a few minor points:

--I actually rather like the Zombie Minion.  7 mana for a 7 (un)Life Resilient zombie with 3 base attack and 1 bloodthirsty.  Uses: first attack on my opponent's target creature, to hopefully damage it and trigger the Brutes' Bloodthirsty (also to remove Guards); Pest is a non-issue because you usually don't/can't guard with your zombies anyway; they help reduce the heat on your Brutes; and they're better sacrifices to Shaggoth when wounded.

--A few Zombie Crawlers can be good to include to pump up Shaggoth as well.  Low in spellbook cost and good to cast when you don't have mana for anything else.

--One Plague Zombie is insanely good, even better with Sacrificial Altar, particularly considering it's only three spellbook points!  It's a late-game play though, when many of your other undead are already on the table and you don't have terribly urgent uses for that nine mana you have to save.  Both cards are auto-includes in any Necro book I build.

--If you're intending to guard, add some skeletons.  Or better yet, drop zombie entirely and specialize in skeleton.

My current zombie build includes four each Crawlers, Minions, and Brutes, and one each Adramelech, Shaggoth, and Plague.  I'm using a modified version of the starter I think you originally posted somewhere: Crystal/Double-Move, Ring/Brute, Crystal/Brute, Crystal/Brute, Crystal/Brute, fuzzy.  I've had a lot of success with it, so far.

[Aylin]

Indy, the main problem with Pest is that Pest creatures don't hinder.

[DeckBuilder]

Hi Indy

I think your points are perfectly valid
And I defer to your experience with the Necromancer as I've only played him once!

I think we are approaching the Necromancer with 2 different archetypes
Your build seems more Swarm and from your Crawler comments, uses at least 1 Spawnpoint?
Because of Orb and Obelisk (surely must haves for any Wizard or Forcemaster), I avoid Swarm

That's not to say that Swarm cannot just overwhelm

The one time I did play Necromancer (a rare vanilla game without playtest cards), I had just

4 Brutes
1 Shaggoth (because he's good value)
1 Plague Zombie (for Eternal Servant + Sacrificial Altar, as you say)

No spawnpoints
Cloak of Shadows with Nullify on top (important as I was playing against Fire Wizard, popular with DvN out)
The rest was all move spells (Frenzies, Teleports, Force Push) and debuffs (acid ball, marked for death etc)

It was this build, probably with a few last minute changes (I'm a tinkerer)

http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13497.msg28645#msg28645

I Eternal Servant my vanguard Brute as I knew he would be damaged by Wizard's Tower
When he died, I recast it and saved Eternal Servant for Plague Zombie + Altar shenanigans
But they played no part as the opponent was dead by then! I was shocked at the efficiency.

The ability to Frenzy, which cannot be countered by any means, is incredible, even if a full action.
To truly abuse it, you ensure you do not injure any other creature except enemy mage: Kill the King.
I had Cloak and Nullify protection against Teleport, safely 2 away from Tower.

I think the speed of
4 Brutes + 14 Channel by turn 5
Force Push guard/enemy (whichever has no Nullify) + Frenzy
Rinse and repeat
(Sometimes just simple Marked to Death to trigger any Nullify then Teleport)
It was just obscene...

I truly get you what you mean about Minions being good against guards
But I avoid wounding guards (Pestilence only comes out once enemy mage is wounded beyond healing)
I play the Necromancer like somaddict plays the Forcemaster Grizzlies
And just from that one game, I just found this approach too fast - the Wizard was brutalised
I now understand why somaddict's Forcemaster plus Grizzlies build is such a dangerous build
But this seemed to be an upgrade

I think it's upgrade but it may not be...
Because it was recently ruled that Forcemaster's Force Pull is an untyped spell
This was very important as it further weakens Nullify

Still Cloak of Shadows + Nullify gave me the protection to focus solely on the attack

Anyway, I have only played one game as Necromancer and played him different to how he was designed
So I really do defer to your greater experience when playing him
Also the Wizard could have been played a bit better, mistakes were made

But from that one game, I am surprised anybody bothers with a longer game strategy
You only need to do 32-40 damage maximum in a game usually, anything else is Win More
I was just sharing that insight

I think what you wrote, Indy, is totally true for a more traditional Zombie Swarm build

[jacksmack]

It sounds like you think you can ignore guards when there is a wounded target in the same zone.

[Wildhorn]

Yes, but they also have no Armor. So while there is Ethereal attacks to counter to Incorporeal, Resilient creatures have no armor  and typically lower life than equivalent level creatures. So that is the built in counter to Resilient. I know, I know Incorporeal creatures also have no armor (remember I do all of the data entry for the sets in OCTGN). So I think in the end the comparison holds up.

Here is where I agree with others (you know whom you are), more dice, more dice, and more dice.

Resilient is equivalent of infinite armor.

[DeckBuilder]

It sounds like you think you can ignore guards when there is a wounded target in the same zone.

No, I know Bloodthirsty doesn't allow that (it would be an awesome positive trait)
I just Force Push the guard away before the first attack to maul the Wizard
This Fire Wizard put Nullify on himself but not the Hydra or Jelly

He made a big mistake by casting a Jelly first over a Hydra second
Because the Jelly has no counterstrike and I'm not distracted by it
I see his logic (he expected Pestilence, Deathlock etc) in that my Zombies would be neutered by it
But I wasn't playing Board Control, I ignored his Tower mana sink etc
Why attack the monkey when you can attack the organ grinder?

But I don't think the mistake would have changed the result, just lengthened game
Yes I had to attack the Hydra once (Agony helped minimise hurt there)
But this was after the Wizard was wounded
So Hydra being wounded didn't distract the remainder of the Brutes attacking the Wizard in that zone

Other mages will not be as constrained as Wizard who uses Slow guards
And that's where Indy's use Minions to distract Guards (like Butterfly) is indeed sound advice
However other Mages would be less prone to having Nullify protection
So you would assume you can move them more often with Force Push
So with Wizard you move the guard, with other Non-Dark Mages (no Cloak) you Force Pull the Mage

All I am saying is that I never appreciated the power of Frenzy until I played it
Especially if you have a QC (and mana) left to Force Push a wounded blocker out of the way

I'm starting to think we are not giving AW enough credit here about reacting to the meta
I think both the Druid and the Necromancer have the tools to beat the dominant Wizard
We're just learning the new cards, trying to understand how they work in practice
I know I'm far behind on the curve on that
And that's why I'm more than happy to be told I'm wrong because I probably am wrong

I have to say my opponent could have played better (I have to take my few games where I find them)
But then I feel I made some new-to-these-cards mistakes that I wouldn't in future

Did we play it suboptimal? Most definitely
Did we play it wrong? I don't think so

The Brutes/Shaggoth hinder once they attack you and this is huge
Leave without Teleporting and you cannot double move to escape
There was often 2 paths to the Wizard along a diagonal with 1 blocked
Oh look what I cast - Frenzy - no matter where I am in the arena!

I don't know, jack, I may be totally wrong here
But my first impressions were "this can be fine tuned to be even more brutal"
I wish I had the opportunity to test it more like I did before finally unveiling Golem Pit
Potential 4x 7dice Fast is absolutely disgusting (once softened by Acid Ball, maybe buffed by Marked to Death on top)

Is 44 mana Brutes + 9 mana Frenzy (simplistic, I know) with Channeling 14 too fast for such pain?
Certainly not. Compare to 4+ Falcons + 4 Furies Beastmaster Swarm. It's about right for Super Aggro.
So I am not saying there's anything broken here.

All am I saying is if Necromancer has this perfectly viable Super Aggro option, why go slower?
The slower you play, the more Control takes control
And the more you summon, the more vulnerable you are to Epic Control pieces

Necromancer was obviously designed to be played Mid Range Spawnpoint
But I suspect he'll actually end up being played Super Aggro (that 10 Channelling is better than +1 Melee)
That's all I'm saying: nothing broken here, nothing all that controversial either

[DeckBuilder]

Just realised what I should have done in that game!
I should be using the Eternal Plague Zombie as my guard distractor! Doh!
(Just like Indy does with his Minions)

Let's compare Sacrificial Altar and Frenzy
9 mana to cast Frenzy: Fast + 4x +1 Melee
9 mana to recast Eternal Plague, Rot all enemies in zone and add +2 Melee / +2 Piercing to 1 attack
Even without Graveyard synergy, I think Plague Zombie may be better only because it's a free action
But sometimes you just need Z-style Fast Zombie Frenzy...

This is what I mean: we both played sub-optimally
We are all still learning to play these new mages
But I just don't see the point of Necromancer going Mid Range Spawnpoint