What if creatures from spawnpoints was summoned "untapped"

[jacksmack]

I was thinking about a simple way to overall improve spawnpoints, simply because i want them to be part of the game and have a viable function as part of a competetive spellbook.

The current consenssus is that it takes too long for a spawnpoint to give back the initial cost - more so in terms of mana and less so in terms of the action it requires.

What would happen if a creature from a spawnpoint summoned during the deployment phase starts with its action marker ready side up?
 - It would add another surprise element that the opponent would not be able to plan cards for (We are past planning phase when the creatures come out of spawnpoints).
 - It would reduce the amount of rounds it takes for a spawnpoint to "repay itself" in terms of actions.
 - Guards with or without intercepts coming to aid in an instance!
 - familiars can assist straight away! though both a familiar and a spawnpoints starts to become a heavy mana investment.

 - The pentagram could potentially reduce the cost 1 by triggering the mana income on the spawnpoint by attacking a creature with the just summoned (for instance) firebrand imp.
 - Clerics can put mana on Temple of Asyra one round earlier.
 - If timed with initiative gorgons can come out and directly place weak tokens on enemy creatures from the Voltari.
 - Beastmaster can do well timed summons of "boss" creatures that buffs friendly creatures of the same type. (redclaw for instance)
 - A Barrack near the enemy can summon AND move goblin bombers. The goblin builder will be able to move and actually build something in the round after (2 action phases from here). Thorg coming out Taunting, sniper coming out sniping etc.

Overpowered? Bad idea?
What do you think?

[cbalian]

Are you suggesting creatures come out of spawn points at any time or would the standard spawn point rules apply and it would be only during deployment phase but they just aren't inactive (summon sick) their 1st turn?

I like the idea overall, especially the suprise/support element.  My general view is pretty against changing something that is already in print (see my comments on not nerfing/changing Temple of Light etc).

BUT that isn't to say there isn't ways (even FUN NEW ways) to make that happen.  I think it was suggested somewhere to have a "face down trap card" that is ambush and it lets you summon creature(s) out of it as a "surprise" element.  So you could put a face down zone enchantment that lets you summon a creature when you reveal the enchantment.  Since you can reveal an enchantment almost anytime it would sort of do what you are talking about BUT it wouldn't be so overpowered.  Maybe it is a one time use sort of thing, plus it is limited to the zone the enchant is in (but so is the spawnpoint).

Personally for me I don't look to my spawnpoint as a return on my mana investment, the point of the spawn point (for me) is the extra action it allows me (THAT is huge).  I've even played as a Beastmaster and I went creature heavy but I never summoned a single animal the entire game (I let the spawn point summon them all for me) and I still won with little trouble because I use my FULL ACTION to do damage rather than "wasting" my action phase summoning a creature, I nearly always summon creatures during deploy phase not action phase.

Anyways I think the idea sounds AWESOME, but I'd love to see it implemented in a way that doesn't change existing spawnpoints.  So either a new type of spawnpoint or the enchantment/ambush type thing would work and still provide balance so it isn't overpowered.

[jacksmack]

@Cbalian
In my suggestion nothing is changed to the spawnpoints. Its only a matter of changing the summoning rules to:
Creatures summoned by a spawnpoint during the planning phase comes into game with their ready marked active (ready to use).


In regards to the trap that summones a creature i believe it should be made as a normal specific CREATURE that is allowed to be put facedown to a zone (like a trap) for an additional 2 mana cost (face down cast cost on enchantments) and then when revealing its normal cost.
This way you dont get to choose what creature you wanna put, but rather its a trait for a possible future creature. You of course have the option of never "revealing" it, and then only 2 mana is spent.
Anyway that is a different discussion that should be in a different subject

[cbalian]

Changing rules that fundamentally seems almost as bad as changing existing cards, but I see what you are saying.

The other thing I was thinking is if you made that change it would take away part of the advantage of the Beastmaster since his/her creatures can take actions/moves/attacks/guard the same turn they come into play with Rouse the Beast.  Rouse the Beast would definitely lose it's value (not that I've ever used that card myself, I don't mind waiting a turn to attack/guard etc).

Now as to face down CREATURE cards, THAT is a cool idea.  Like that wolf spider lays in wait to spring on its victim or something.  But that is an idea/discussion for another thread.

[jacksmack]

Big problem with my suggestion involving rouse of the beast yes.

Rouse of the beast would still Work and would actually allow for 2 turns for the new creature if played accordingly. That would no doubt be too strong.

Anyway my idea was not something that should change anything dramatically, just a minor tweak to the spawnpoints that currently seem inferior to pretty much all strategies. Perhaps spawnpoints will be viable with Conquest of Kumanjaro or in future releases.

[nitrodavid]

nearly every Mage that uses living creatures can use rouse the beast (it is a lvl 1 spell).

how about this for balance. when a spawn point summons a creature, spawn it with action marker active AND a 2 SLOW tokens (this turns a fast creature into slow) remove the tokens at the end of its action phase.

 this is a slight buff to spawn points but is still not as good as rouse the beast.

[Sausageman]

I can't believe you think spawn points aren't that good.... There's only one I think is overall 'poor', the others are excellent.

[haslo]

I haven't played the game that much yet, but isn't the prime benefit of all spawn points that you can spawn creatures (which would normally require a full action) in addition to doing whatever you want to do? This seems to be true for all Spawnpoints, even the relatively worse ones.

[nitrodavid]

mathematically spawn points cost you mana-efficency to gain a action-efficency. spawn points take 4.5 to 12 turns mana pay off but gain there action pay off on the next turn.

[Shad0w]

mathematically spawn points cost you mana-efficency to gain a action-efficency. spawn points take 4.5 to 12 turns mana pay off but gain there action pay off on the next turn.

Dave is 100% correct this is how they were balanced.