Temple of Light module

[Preacher]

So, when building another book a few months ago, I noticed Temple of light wasn't tied to any specific mage or even to a 'Holy mage' which interested me greatly. Add to this, Hand of Bim Shalla is one of my favourite cards and one of the most useful 'toolbox' cards IMO and the whole lot got my cogs whirring.

I've been chewing it over since then and pondering which books the following module would fit best in and which strategies it would compliment, given that both cards are very strong.

Temple of Light x1 (or 2)
Hand of BS x3 (or 4 for borrowing 1    )

So in a non-Priestess book, you're only looking at 10 cost (double) and 15 for Warlock for the base 4 cards. If you wanted to go crazy you could add Dawnbreaker.. probably becomes prohibitive for most mages and *certainly* the Warlock then but considering how many bases it covers for 4 cards I like it in a few other books.

Basic examples
1. I could see a very nasty Forcemaster book using this to compliment the core FM strategy, give heal/armour and more importantly even more melee damage and to limit movement with the Stun effect, all of which adds to an already strong book.

2. Beastmaster. Another one that could really use all the effects of the cards in the module well with a mid-sized swarm and the Temple doing extra damage and pinning the enemy mage to the spot.

Now, I'm not presenting this as the be all and end all but it is very versatile both offensively and defensively and allows you to heal a little, get a few vital points of armour when needed and at worst is a very good distraction as IMO the Temple of Light is one of the few cards in the game that you almost always HAVE to deal with in one way or another when it hits the table.

Food for thought... any ideas?

[reddawn]

1. The FM doesn't have proper creatures to defend those conjurations, unlike the Priestess, and won't get the full value from them as they will thus die much more quickly.  I'd much rather have a Mana Crystal than a Hand anyway, since it pays for Deflect (or other initial upkeep things) over the course of the game whereas Hand doesn't do anything for the first couple turns.

2.  Seems more feasible conceptually, but based on the forming metagame I'm not really convinced.  The Beastmaster has such a good early game (second only to the Warlock, by a small margin) that I wouldn't usually try for a longer game in which most other mages have the advantage.  There are also in-school options that while less "flexible," are most powerful and less expensive, especially with the Enchanter's Ring.


The problem with your choices is that both of those mages are pretty aggressive, and I don't think that's where these conjurations shine.  I think they're much better with their intended mage, the Priestess, who already has the most mana-efficient dazing/stunning spells in the game with which to really cut down on an opposing mage's early action advantage.  An exception could be the Wizard, who has the defensive creatures, powerful late-game, and action-sapping spells  to really see a cumulative effect from those conjurations.

[baronzaltor]

I use a few temples in my Forcemaster build, I really like it.  

Temple of Dawnbringer for example is really handy with the Forcemaster since she has a passive defense chance.  Temple of Light works great even with just itself and 1-2 other temples, extra ranged etherial damage and stun/daze checks that require no further cost or action on your part is a no brainer.  Its extra damage vs non living also helps when dealing with pesky Iron Golems (who are immune to practically everything in her build)   Also her natural Pull ability lets you keep someone from getting too close or too far from it.

With just two Bim-Shallas and Temple of Light your attack chain gets really heavy:
6 dice galvatar, 3 dice dancing scimitar, 3 dice+stun temple beam without counting any other boosts.

[Preacher]

1. The FM doesn't have proper creatures to defend those conjurations, unlike the Priestess, and won't get the full value from them as they will thus die much more quickly.  I'd much rather have a Mana Crystal than a Hand anyway, since it pays for Deflect (or other initial upkeep things) over the course of the game whereas Hand doesn't do anything for the first couple turns.

2.  Seems more feasible conceptually, but based on the forming metagame I'm not really convinced.  The Beastmaster has such a good early game (second only to the Warlock, by a small margin) that I wouldn't usually try for a longer game in which most other mages have the advantage.  There are also in-school options that while less "flexible," are most powerful and less expensive, especially with the Enchanter's Ring.


The problem with your choices is that both of those mages are pretty aggressive, and I don't think that's where these conjurations shine.  I think they're much better with their intended mage, the Priestess, who already has the most mana-efficient dazing/stunning spells in the game with which to really cut down on an opposing mage's early action advantage.  An exception could be the Wizard, who has the defensive creatures, powerful late-game, and action-sapping spells  to really see a cumulative effect from those conjurations.

I don't agree on most of your FM points there. If you're worried about upkeep costs (of which there could be a few), I'd much rather have the Force Orb at 2 more mana than a Mana Crystal, let's face it you're gunna play the Forcefield so that Orb is going to pay for itself even with only FF and innate Defence used. I prefer more proactive tactics myself and tend not to use the mana boosters too much unless the deck really calls for them and if there's no other option. Again, I'm a more aggressive and proactive player so not sure defending the temples is high on my agenda; if my opponent is taking time destroying the temple of light, they are taking hits from it and other sources and getting distracted, all of which I like. A lot.

[edit: minor point but remembered innate defence isn't 'Upkeep']

I think the 'best' FM book looks to get into the opposing mages face pretty quickly and I like the thought of dropping Hands down (behind you) as you go in the early phases to then use all game in the 1 to 1 and then dropping the Temple down mid game to really seal the game or up your damage and board control.  

I like certainty and longevity where possible in a game where there are a fair few horrible random possibilities and as such prefer things like the +1 melee on HoBS for 'most' of the game on a creature, rather than say a Bear Strength on a creature that might die quite quickly (in the BM swarm book we are talking about). It's very much about the likelihood of something getting used for me too and I *always* use HoBS where single card enchants can be a little harder to actually get on target in my experience.

Yep, I was thinking the BM might not be the best example but haven't tried the module in that book yet. His conjurations and stuff like Call of the Wild do suit that swarm build better but I know a lot of folk like the BM beatdown build too so...

Well, as I said I like more proactive effects in the game and really don't agree that HoBS and Temple of Light necessarily sit best with the Priestess who often really struggles to get melee damage on target and actually do the dice damage needed to defeat the enemy mage. That said, Priestess Temple is a strong book as we all know but one that wins tournaments of the future? I don't think so personally.

Oddly I don't see much use here for the Wizard at all! Just goes to show you how differently we look at the game eh  B)  He doesn't much use the melee bonus in most books but I guess the Temple is pretty damn useful where and whenever it comes out.

[Preacher]

I use a few temples in my Forcemaster build, I really like it.  

Temple of Dawnbringer for example is really handy with the Forcemaster since she has a passive defense chance.  Temple of Light works great even with just itself and 1-2 other temples, extra ranged etherial damage and stun/daze checks that require no further cost or action on your part is a no brainer.  Its extra damage vs non living also helps when dealing with pesky Iron Golems (who are immune to practically everything in her build)   Also her natural Pull ability lets you keep someone from getting too close or too far from it.

With just two Bim-Shallas and Temple of Light your attack chain gets really heavy:
6 dice galvatar, 3 dice dancing scimitar, 3 dice+stun temple beam without counting any other boosts.

Agreed and one very very important thing for me is that attack chain can happen every round, not nice at all. I very much subscribe to the spell damage effects as being efficient finishers but give me a good perm set up like this in the early to mid game any day.

A couple of well placed Thoughtspores with Force Push or another control spell could really help with positioning for the Temple hits and the Daze effect acts like another mini defence for attacks missing on top of the FMs innate defence and anything else you layer on her to make her a very tough cookie to take out.

ToL also helps with flyers, something the FM can be a little weak against.

As I say, I've not tried it but interesting to hear it's working well for you, cool!

[reddawn]

1. The FM doesn't have proper creatures to defend those conjurations, unlike the Priestess, and won't get the full value from them as they will thus die much more quickly.  I'd much rather have a Mana Crystal than a Hand anyway, since it pays for Deflect (or other initial upkeep things) over the course of the game whereas Hand doesn't do anything for the first couple turns.

2.  Seems more feasible conceptually, but based on the forming metagame I'm not really convinced.  The Beastmaster has such a good early game (second only to the Warlock, by a small margin) that I wouldn't usually try for a longer game in which most other mages have the advantage.  There are also in-school options that while less "flexible," are most powerful and less expensive, especially with the Enchanter's Ring.


The problem with your choices is that both of those mages are pretty aggressive, and I don't think that's where these conjurations shine.  I think they're much better with their intended mage, the Priestess, who already has the most mana-efficient dazing/stunning spells in the game with which to really cut down on an opposing mage's early action advantage.  An exception could be the Wizard, who has the defensive creatures, powerful late-game, and action-sapping spells  to really see a cumulative effect from those conjurations.

I don't agree on most of your FM points there. If you're worried about upkeep costs (of which there could be a few), I'd much rather have the Force Orb at 2 more mana than a Mana Crystal, let's face it you're gunna play the Forcefield so that Orb is going to pay for itself even with only FF and innate Defence used. I prefer more proactive tactics myself and tend not to use the mana boosters too much unless the deck really calls for them and if there's no other option. Again, I'm a more aggressive and proactive player so not sure defending the temples is high on my agenda; if my opponent is taking time destroying the temple of light, they are taking hits from it and other sources and getting distracted, all of which I like. A lot.

[edit: minor point but remembered innate defence isn't 'Upkeep']

I think the 'best' FM book looks to get into the opposing mages face pretty quickly and I like the thought of dropping Hands down (behind you) as you go in the early phases to then use all game in the 1 to 1 and then dropping the Temple down mid game to really seal the game or up your damage and board control.  

I like certainty and longevity where possible in a game where there are a fair few horrible random possibilities and as such prefer things like the +1 melee on HoBS for 'most' of the game on a creature, rather than say a Bear Strength on a creature that might die quite quickly (in the BM swarm book we are talking about). It's very much about the likelihood of something getting used for me too and I *always* use HoBS where single card enchants can be a little harder to actually get on target in my experience.

Yep, I was thinking the BM might not be the best example but haven't tried the module in that book yet. His conjurations and stuff like Call of the Wild do suit that swarm build better but I know a lot of folk like the BM beatdown build too so...

Well, as I said I like more proactive effects in the game and really don't agree that HoBS and Temple of Light necessarily sit best with the Priestess who often really struggles to get melee damage on target and actually do the dice damage needed to defeat the enemy mage. That said, Priestess Temple is a strong book as we all know but one that wins tournaments of the future? I don't think so personally.

Oddly I don't see much use here for the Wizard at all! Just goes to show you how differently we look at the game eh  B)  He doesn't much use the melee bonus in most books but I guess the Temple is pretty damn useful where and whenever it comes out.

I guess I just don't get that if you think the FM is best rushing against the opposing mage (which I don't agree with for several reasons; her low health, lack of melee skill, etc), why you think longevity is all that important.  That is the disconnect here; if you are looking to end the game quickly, Hands are for sure not worth it.  They are not necessarily going to hurt you, but there are far better plays for the short term.  And, it is far easier to defend against Dispels and Dissolves with a simple Nullify than worry about a conjuration that needs protecting (assuming you can anticipate initiative well).

And if this discussion is focusing on what is strictly competitive, as implied by your comment about "tournaments of the future," I definitely do not encourage temples outside of Priestess builds.  In a competitive context, spellbook points are so fundamentally important that you should only look to the most needed out-of-school spells, like counterspells and enchantment/equipment removal, as competitive considerations.  Even then, there are usually options in-school to deal with a problem, they're usually just more subtle (i.e., Eagle Wings to counter a Quicksand, rather than the less elegant, more catch-all Teleport).

I don't see what a temple offers that the FM doesn't have in some better way that is specific to her.  In fact, I have a hard time believing most conjurations work well for her; beyond mana-conjurations, which are universally useful, by far her most useful conjurations are walls.  Orb of Suppression also is a good inclusion against more late-game oriented Warlords (if you run out of Force Hammer) and Beastmasters.

[sdougla2]

I agree that there are more efficient aggro options than Hand of Bim-Shalla like Bear Strength and Gauntlets of Strength. Going with a temple plan would move your more towards control than aggro. As for how good it is, I'm not sure. I haven't tried it, but I'd like to at some point.