Initiative & dissipate

[Halewijn]

Very similar to the post below, jacksmack and I had a disagreement about this. I'll just the specific example and I would like someone (*cough cough Zuberi) to confirm or debunk it.

1) Whirlpool's last dissipate token is removed. According to me, I control Whirlpool, so it is me who decides If I choose the damage first or remove the dissipate first. In other words, damage is added. 

According to Jack (correct me if I misinterpreted your explanation), he had the initiative, so he could choose when he adds the damage. Since he chooses to do that effect after the dissipate token is removed, the damage is not added.

2) Same issue with other spells like slumber.

3) The only spell that I can currently think of that works differently is death link, since the transfer of life affects both the warlock and the creature at the same time, so initiative matters.

[jacksmack]

Its more or less what i said.

To keep it simple lets pretend that whirlpool is the only thing that happens during upkeep and there is only 1 creature in the zone.

As we start upkeep it should be clear that 2 things are about to happen, and they will happen simultaneously.

1)
the last dissipate token is to be removed which will result in the destruction of whirlpool.

2)
the creature will take 2 direct damage.

The player with initiative decides what happens first. If its the creature owner he can choose to let opponent resolve the effects for his whirlpool first. There is only 1 effect on whirlpool and that's dissipate.
Whirlpool is then destroyed, so we never get to damaging the creature as when we do come to the resolution the effect is no longer in play.

Imagine that whirlpool had another effect such as roll the effect dice on 9+ add a dissipate token. Then the owner of whirlpool could choose if he wanted to remove a token first (destroying whirlpool) or roll effect dice first.
And this would be after the initiative player asked you to resolve dissipate before he damages his creature, because you choose the order of resolution on your own cards.

[exid]

I agree with Jacksmack: the damage affects his creature, he decides when (Halewjin decides for the token on his whirlpool).
But it seems to me that Jqchsmack's creature will take the damage anyway since the whirlpool is there at the begining of the upkeep phase: the damage triggers automatically. For me the order doesn't matters and the player with initiative has no need to choose.

[jacksmack]

Consider the water cloak.

Will the burn you removed also roll for burn? I hope we can agree that its a no.

(assuming you choose to pay 1 mana for removal before you let burn resolve.)


its not a 1-1 example, but it still an argument for: not all effects that that are supposed to happen during the upkeep will necessarily take place in the cases where they are removed before we get that far.

[Zuberi]

I just wrote an in depth post that answers this, so not going to repeat myself. In short, Jacksmack is correct. Here is the full post if you want the long answer.

I agree with Jacksmack: the damage affects his creature, he decides when (Halewjin decides for the token on his whirlpool).
But it seems to me that Jqchsmack's creature will take the damage anyway since the whirlpool is there at the begining of the upkeep phase: the damage triggers automatically. For me the order doesn't matters and the player with initiative has no need to choose.

The whirlpool can't cause damage once its been destroyed or otherwise removed from the game.

[Enti]

Since I was the one Hale played with I'm going to tell you how we did it in the game:

We played it like this:

The person who controls the card with the dissipate token, can decide what happens first.
If he wants the dissipate token to be removed before the effect takes place or afterwards. And of course Hale decided to use the effect and then remove the dissipate token.

From my point of view that is the same with Pillar of Righteous Flame. No matter the initiative, you always get a hit for each dissipate token removed from it. And I've never seen anyone play it differently.

So I am really no fan of this unnecessary complication that suddenly somehow initiative is involved.

[Zuberi]

Pillar of Righteous Flame is written differently. It deals damage WHEN the dissipate token is removed. So there is no order to determine. And this rule isn't something sudden, it's been in the rulebook since day one so we've had over 4 years to get used to resolving timing issues. Granted, timing issues did use to be a lot rarer.

[Enti]

Okay, I just saw that it is written like this in the supplement.

But it is highly illogical (or I just don't understand the reasoning behind it^^).

Here's a screenshot:




It especially says that "the controller of Whirlpool decides when to remove the Dissipate token". But in the next sentence it counteracted this statement by stating that it doesn't matter what the controller of the Whirlpool decides because initiative is deciding. (Because this "decision" to apply dmg and then remove the dissipate is not really a decision, it 99,9% it's a no-brainer)

I really have a problem with this ruling because it makes it unnecessarily complicated. Even someone like me who plays a lot online and a lot of different people didn't know that until now. And I can guarantee you that the majority of MW player don't play it like this.
So maybe we should make the rules more intuitive? I think everyone would benefit from that, the game is already complex enough without having a slightly different ruling on every single card?

[Zuberi]

As the person who wrote that section, I'm sorry that it comes off as illogical. The thing is, the person who controls whirlpool decides when the dissipate token is removed in relation to all of the other upkeep effects that affect their objects. So, I can decide when to remove the dissipate token in relation to when I regenerate my unicorn, and I roll for the burns on my mage, etc. Or when Whirlpool damages MY creatures.

However, my opponent decides when it damages their creatures in relation to the other upkeep effects that affect their objects. So they decide when their creatures take damage in relation to when their troll regenerates, or their mage takes rot damage, etc.

Then, the person with Initiative decides when the dissipate token is removed in relation to their creature's taking damage from the whirlpool, because these effects are controlled by different people and you thus have a timing issue.

[Ridethesandworm]

So I'm very new to mage wars but I've poked around these forums a few times and I registered because of the whirlpool initiative discussion. I want to make sure I understand this properly.

I now understand the rules around whirlpool (although I think those rules negatively effect the game) but what about a card like lullaby. Can the victim of the card choose to have the dissipate go away before rolling the effect die? Does lullaby effectively only last one round (unless extended by the Siren)?