Timing on Hellfire Trap and Caltrops Mangler in same zone

[ringkichard]

RAW is an abbreviation for Rules As Written. It conntrasts with Rules As Intended and Rules As Played.

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If -- during the upkeep phase -- a card causes an event that does one damage to every creature in the arena, then the player with the Initiative choses when that event happens. This is because that event affects multiple players' objects, and someone has to decide when to complete the event.

On the other hand, if the card causes multiple seperate events, one for each creature in the arena, then there are no conflicts of control and each creatures' controller choses when those events happen to each of their own creatures, seperately.

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If a spell, outside of the Upkeep Phase, causes multiple events -- acording to the FAQ for every card that I can think of where it would matter -- the spell's controller choses the order. There's clearly a lost ruling involved here, but that's what the FAQ says.

From a gameplay perspective, it's pretty clearly better this way anyway. We just need a rule to clarify the ruling.

[exid]

If -- during the upkeep phase -- a card causes an event that does one damage to every creature in the arena, then the player with the Initiative choses when that event happens. This is because that event affects multiple players' objects, and someone has to decide when to complete the event.

just to be sure: the controler of the affected object can choose when other event that affects only his object happen (befor or after the multi target event)?

[ringkichard]

Nope.
During the Upkeep Phase, the player with Initiative makes all contested choices. If the order is contested, the player with Initiative choses who goes first, last, and inbetween.

The player who controls the affected object choses the order of all events that affect only that object, but the player with Initiative can insert the contested event anywhere they want.

Think of it like this:

I control a creature that will be affected by upkeep events A, B, and C. My opponent has the Initiative, so they control contested event X.

So, what happens first? I want C. My opponent wants X. My opponent choses that X happens. Then I get to decide how I want to order A, B, and C.

Or

I want C, and my opponent who has the Initiative thinks that's fine, so there's no conflict. Then I want B. My opponent decides that instead, X will happen now. Then I chose the order of A and B.

Or

Suppose I want X to happen first. Too bad, X affects more than one controllers' objects, and my opponent has Initiative. I can't chose X to happen, and I have to choose something else.  So I pick C. Then I pick B. Then I pick A. Only then does my opponent decide that X happens.

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Basically, Initiative gives you two separate powers.

1. You chose the order of events for any control-conflicted event, as if it only affected your objects.

2. You determine who says what happens next. The chosen player may only chose from events that they have control over.

If Alice has only one upkeep event, the player with Initiative decides when Alice's event happens. If Alice has two events, the player with Initiative decides when Alice's first event happens and when Alice's second event happens, but not the order of events. Alice can chose either of her two events to happen first. This is consistent with Alice's power to chose the order of all events that affect only her objects. But whenever there is a contested decision on what happens first overall, the player with Initiative decides.

[exid]

wow...
it makes the initiative very powerfull!
are you sure of your interpretation?

I try to sumerise again:
The player with initiative goes first if both players want to act simultaneously.
The order of resolution of simultaneous effects is choosed by the controler of the effects's cause. Exception: during the upkeep it's the controler of the objects affected by the effects who chooses the order.
And if the two rules don't solve the timing issue, the player with initiative chooses the order (for example if an event affects objects from many players during upkeep).

[ringkichard]

Am I sure? Maybe 85%. There's no official, well spelled out, instructions with examples.

The official rules are that during the upkeep you make decisions affecting your own objects, and if there's a timing issue the player with Initiative decides. That's pretty much all that's written.

The examples I gave assume that the player with Initiative cares about the order of everything that he possibly can, so he or she gets to decide it all.

It's not nearly as powerful as it looks, though. Nearly all abilities that occur in the upkeep only effect one player's objects, or effect them with individualized events, so that no single event affects more than one object.

Burns, all curses except for Death Link, Regeneration, Upkeep +X except for Mind Control, etc all create single object events.

There's some rules ambiguity about which cards exactly qualify,  but off the top of my head, it's mostly only two categories of cards. Idol of Pestilence / Altar of Skulls and that sort of thing on the one hand, and Enchantments with Upkeep +X and a secondary effect like Force Crush on the other. And even with Force Crush, you can't do the damage before you pay the mana because of the way the card is worded.

Force Crush is actually an interesting corner case, because it may not qualify. Normally, the controler of Force Crush would be the one who decides when to pay Force Crush's Upkeep cost. It's not clear if the damage is a new event that the creature's controller must order, or if it's part of the same event, which would cause a timing conflict and be reaolved by Initiative.
Now that I think about it, being conditional like that probably means that Force Crush's controler is the only player who decides when to pay the upkeep, and the damage is added to the event too late for it to matter in the ordering of events.

So there you go. Not even Force Crush counts.

I do know that it matters for Skeelax, Taunting Imp, because if the flame is on an opponent's creature it might go out before Imp has a chance to regenerate.

Really, though, there aren't that many times when it matters. Most players probably never have it come up. You've played this far without worrying about it, right?

[exid]

the rules say you choose the order in wich EVENTS that affect your creature... and that makes a point for what you say...

[ringkichard]

Er, yes. I've been typing these responses on my phone.

[Kelanen]

the rules say you choose the order in wich EVENTS that affect your creature... and that makes a point for what you say...

Is that still in the v4 Rulebook? All references to Events were supposed to be removed at v4 because Events is not a defined game term (and this lead to all the changes in Enchantment reveal opportunities...).

[ringkichard]

Hmm, good question.

I'm pretty sure I've got the newest PDF. Hard to say since they stopped putting the version number in the file name.

You always choose the order in which events that affect your creatures and objects occur during this phase. In the rare case that a timing issue occurs,  the player with the initiative decides the order. Example: You control a Highland Unicorn with the Regenerate 2 trait that has a Burn marker on it. Since the creature has a lot of damage on it, the Burn effect could destroy it. You can choose to resolve the Regenerate trait first or the Burn condition first.

My sense is that "events" is being used in the natural language meaning of the word, not any sort of jargon.

[exid]

v4, yes.

[Kelanen]

My sense is that "events" is being used in the natural language meaning of the word, not any sort of jargon.

I agree, although I think it's a piece of natural language they should have avoided, having just removed it's rules connotation.

[ringkichard]

Personally, I wish they'd put it back and define it.

[wtcannonjr]

After looking over the rules again here is the simplest interpretation that I came up with and the one that i use in play.

Players act in the Action Stage AND whenever you must determine the order of events (this last clause covers Ready Stage and Action Stage) starting with the Initiative player and moving clockwise to remaining players. [Rules: p. 6 Phase 1: Initiative - "The player with the initiative acts first during the Action Stage and goes first whenever you must determine the order of events".]

In the Upkeep Phase this rule is used to resolve "the rare case that a timing issue occurs". The statement on p. 7 "...the player with the initiative decides the order" is interpreted as a restatement of the rule on p. 6, but in the context of resolving the order of events that affect your creatures and objects. So each player during Upkeep resolves events effecting their objects in their preferred order, but when a timing issue occurs all players must resolve in initiative order to determine the timing.

Revealing enchantments is resolved in initiative order except that players can continue to reveal after the first cycle if a player earlier in initiative order decided to reveal. [Rule p. 18 Revealing Enchantments - "If both [any] player want to reveal an enchantment at the same time, the player with initiative goes first. [...] Then the first player can reveal again, and so on."]

The Codex definition for Initiative p. 42 states. "Also, it is used to resolve any timing issues." So I use this as the basis for setting the sequence of timing IN Initiative order rather than giving a choice of timing to one player or another.