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Author Topic: On the potential competitive viability of free for all  (Read 6282 times)

Sailor Vulcan

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On the potential competitive viability of free for all
« on: July 06, 2016, 10:29:59 AM »
I recently played a game of three player free for all Mage Wars Arena and lost in round 3 or 4 to an aggressive johktari beast master via wall of thrones push combo into a spiked pit terrain, then pushing me again back through the wall. In retrospect, I was so behind at that point so early in the game, that I think if he had stuck a poisoned blood on me with arcane ward on it or something and then made our other opponent try to finish me off instead, he would not have lost so many resources from killing my Mage and would have been able to win the whole game outright, even though he was using a rush deck. Now I suspect that the supposed imbalance between aggro and control in standard free for all arena might not actually exist. I think we need to play more free for all games before we dismiss it as not viable as a competitive format.

Thoughts?


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Re: On the potential competitive viability of free for all
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2016, 10:52:14 AM »
I don't have much experience with FFA Mage Wars, but in many 1v1v1 3 player games it's the player who stays out of the fighting most effectively that ends up winning.  I would focus on 2v2 team games.  Even 2v2v2 team games would be good because you have 3 1v1s happening between teams and no one will be out of the fighting.
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Re: On the potential competitive viability of free for all
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2016, 11:08:01 AM »
This problem is not unique to Mage Wars.  Many conflict-driven multiplayer free-for-all games suffer from conflict-avoidance (or whatever you want to call it; "turtling and building up?" - Basically "starting in Australia" in Risk). I'd recommend adding incentive to being aggressive / punishment to turtling, and/or considering a different win condition:

(1) Consider "win when the player on your {right/left} is defeated."  So you kind of want to keep the guy {left/right} from dying (but maybe reduce his attack power) while simultaneously killing the player on your {right/left}.  Probably best with 4 players though, as then you're (at least indirectly) helping the guy across from you rather than the guy that's directly trying to kill you... which is one step away from making it a team match.

(2) Play Domination.  Victory points as an alternate win condition means it isn't just about killing everybody.  But occasionally the two players behind on V'tar need to gang up on the leader, killing him, then battling it out for a V'tar win (since in our experience, it's very hard to kill 2 mages before somebody achieves the V'tar goal, even if that's what you built your spell book around).  Most of the best conflict-driven multiplayer free-for-all games that I enjoy have some element of a victory point system as either a primary or alternate victory condition (e.g. Small World, Chaos in the Old World, Risk: Legacy, Cosmic Encounter, Ascending Empires, etc).
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Re: On the potential competitive viability of free for all
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2016, 12:26:20 PM »
I recently played a game of three player free for all Mage Wars Arena and lost in round 3 or 4 to an aggressive johktari beast master via wall of thrones push combo into a spiked pit terrain, then pushing me again back through the wall. In retrospect, I was so behind at that point so early in the game, that I think if he had stuck a poisoned blood on me with arcane ward on it or something and then made our other opponent try to finish me off instead, he would not have lost so many resources from killing my Mage and would have been able to win the whole game outright, even though he was using a rush deck. Now I suspect that the supposed imbalance between aggro and control in standard free for all arena might not actually exist. I think we need to play more free for all games before we dismiss it as not viable as a competitive format.

Thoughts?


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I was the aggro mage he walking talking about. If I had possible blood and arcane ward in the deck, I would have let sure I kill him, while building up my resources.
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Re: On the potential competitive viability of free for all
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2016, 10:40:44 AM »
so i played another game of 3-player standard free for all Arena, and it was the most fun game of mage wars ive had in a long time. It was EPIC!  What you guys are all saying about how whoever stays out of the fighting most effectively wins doesn't really do the format justice. There's a lot of strategy and tactics and bluffing and temporary alliances involved, and trying to make your opponents overextend themselves is not the same thing as "staying out of the fighting". It is very skill-based, and very fun, and when someone wins a game in the format they actually do have to earn it. It's not like the best player is always going to lose right away because the other players gang up on him. The best player is going to do what it takes to win against two opponents, not just one. If you immediately try to come at both your opponents at once big and scary and threatening, and they decide to team up against you, it's your own fault for overextending yourself and showing your hand.

We were on the standard version of the map Triumvirate (same as the domination version of the map but without the orbs or sslaks). I was playing wizard, my two opponents were using druid and adramelech warlock respectively. Naturally I would prefer it if the warlock took out the druid's treebond instead of me, since he had fire and i didn't. And the sooner he takes out the tree the better.

the Warlock had a strange opening. R1 was regrowth belt followed by an idol of pestilence. I opened with a battle forge in my starting zone (the one that isn't a corner) and a wizard tower right in the center of the Arena. The druid opened with vine tree and i dont remember what the other spell was but it might have been a facedown enchant or something.

The Adra Warlock moved on zone to the left, putting him in range of my wizard tower, and casting ignite on it. It was a very smart move, since he could do some damage to it for cheap and the druid would have to deal with it instead. Initially the warlock was going to make my wizard take down the tree instead, but i had other ideas. I cast chains of agony on the warlock, teleported him two zones to the left, and then had my tower cast jet stream on him in order to try to push him into the tree's zone. Unfortunately for the warlock, the druid had cast a wall of thorns in front of his tree. Fortunately for the warlock i failed the push roll on the jet stream. But now he was kinda trapped. He had no armor. There was a wall of thorns protecting the vine tree to his left. There were two vine snappers and a thornlasher in the zone above him, and if he moved right he would risk setting off the spiked pit trap terrain. Not to mention he was still in range of my wiz tower. He decided to stay where he was and summon a fire elemental. The next round the fire elemental moved before i could jet stream it through the wall of thorns. I wanted the tree to die quickly, so instead of sending the elemental through the thorns first, i had my tower jet stream the adra warlock instead. He instantly took something like ten to fifteen damage or so. However, I didn't want him to die just yet. His fire was too useful against the druid's plants. So I took a calculated risk. I wouldn't kill the adra warlock right away. Doing so much damage to him gave me bargaining power over him. I could kill his mage fairly easily at that point, but I didn't want to. If he wanted to stay alive against the druid, he needed my help. Even after the fire elemental had attacked the wall of thorns, it had miraculously stayed alive. In order to ensure that the warlcok and the elmeental stayed alive long enough to destroy the treebond, i moved down into the druid's kill zone (which was right next to the zone with my tower) and teleported the elemental into the druid's starting corner. Then I cast fogbank to block los. Since the druid was also in his kill zone with me and it had a spiked pit trap terrain that had already been set off, the trap did not attack me and it still hindered him. However, I took a lot of damage from druid's plants, since i only had two armor and the voltaric shield. Since i used my mage's quickcast and full action for fog bank and teleport i had no actions left for rhino hide and all of my armor equipments gave only one armor each. The druid had too much mana for repulsion cloak to make a difference. So instead, I deployed a staff of storms, hoping to use it on one of the dice rolls for electrify the next round. However, the fire elemental attacked and destroyed the vine tree in one hit (it already had 3 damage from adra warlock's melee attack earlier in the game) and the druid moved down to attack his own wall of thorns to get at them. The Wall of thorns died, and the warlock started attacking the druid with attack spells, bringing his damage over 20. Now the druid had the most damage, and the warlock had the least. The next round I decided to switch to an alliance with the druid. Unfortunately the druid conceded. This wouldnt have been a problem if he hadn't waited until AFTER the planning phase to do it! Fortunately my spell choices were at least a little flexible. They were a regrowth (which i was going to use on myself) and a teleport (which i was going to use to get the adramelech warlock into the druid's kill zone. The druid was all the way across the arena by this point (he had teleported himself) and so was fairly safe as long as he agreed to ally with me. But he had conceded before I got the chance to teleport the warlock to his kill zone. When the druid died it brought all her creatures with her. Fortunately, despite the fact that I had almost twice as much damage as teh warlock (he had 9 i had 16) I had a bit of a board advantage. I had a bunch of equipment, a battle forge enchanted with reinforce, and not quite dead yet wizard tower that I could replace. His fire elemental was almost dead, and he had no other creatures. However, he had taken some actions and mana to destroy the druid's tree as well as to do a ton of damage to the druid. And I had more channeling. It could have been anyone's game at that point, but we were unable to continue because after the druid conceded we got the game over bug that wouldn't let us do anything else. Resetting the game wouldn't have helped because at one point the warlock's deck was edited while we were waiting for the druid's player to get back from something he was doing afk. if we had taken a screenshot and reset we would have not been able to continue where we left off. It was late, and so we agreed to have a rematch another day.

3-player Standard Free-for-all is now one of my favorite formats, and I highly encourage everyone to play it. It's really fun.
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Re: On the potential competitive viability of free for all
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2016, 09:23:50 AM »
I agree- I love 3 player arena matches. It adds a bit of a political component to the game. And I like what you said about not showing your hand too early. Unfortunately, my gaming group hates 3 player arena matches. They complain that it's two guys teaming up against one. While that's technically true, to your point, alliances can shift, and it's on us as players to do what we can to ensure that doesn't happen- and if it does, what creative strategies can we employ to handle two players?
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Re: On the potential competitive viability of free for all
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2016, 11:27:47 AM »
I kind of hate it - our last game took 7 hours before we decided to quit. The Beastmaster had a big lead, but both keechjen and I played priestess both with Resurrect. For free for all I prefer Domination.
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Re: On the potential competitive viability of free for all
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2016, 12:38:36 PM »
I kind of hate it - our last game took 7 hours before we decided to quit. The Beastmaster had a big lead, but both keechjen and I played priestess both with Resurrect. For free for all I prefer Domination.
Why did it take 7 hours? Let me guess, beastmaster had overwhelming action advantage, priestesses teamed up and kept healing in spite of that?


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Re: On the potential competitive viability of free for all
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2016, 02:40:53 PM »

(1) Consider "win when the player on your {right/left} is defeated."  So you kind of want to keep the guy {left/right} from dying (but maybe reduce his attack power) while simultaneously killing the player on your {right/left}.  Probably best with 4 players though, as then you're (at least indirectly) helping the guy across from you rather than the guy that's directly trying to kill you... which is one step away from making it a team match.

(2) Play Domination.  Victory points as an alternate win condition means it isn't just about killing everybody.  But occasionally the two players behind on V'tar need to gang up on the leader, killing him, then battling it out for a V'tar win (since in our experience, it's very hard to kill 2 mages before somebody achieves the V'tar goal, even if that's what you built your spell book around).  Most of the best conflict-driven multiplayer free-for-all games that I enjoy have some element of a victory point system as either a primary or alternate victory condition (e.g. Small World, Chaos in the Old World, Risk: Legacy, Cosmic Encounter, Ascending Empires, etc).

# 1 is brilliant. I'd like to try that.
# 2 is fun as well, though in my group it's still "gang up on the guy who is in the lead."
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Re: On the potential competitive viability of free for all
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2016, 03:18:33 PM »
I kind of hate it - our last game took 7 hours before we decided to quit. The Beastmaster had a big lead, but both keechjen and I played priestess both with Resurrect. For free for all I prefer Domination.
Why did it take 7 hours? Let me guess, beastmaster had overwhelming action advantage, priestesses teamed up and kept healing in spite of that?


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Nope me and keejchen always tries to take each other out, both of us practically ignored the Beastmaster. As a result he got an massive army. Still if keejchen and I had stopped hitting hard on each other we might have team up ( unlikely)killed some snakes and cubs instead. Keejchen had an insanely buffed Lightning Raptor while I had Goblins!

We both had lots of healing going on with multiple Mage Wand and starting zone Battle Forges - not easy to get through. That's before any of the new stuff.

I like Domination better. (even whitout Galaxus or Domination cards) Puts a timer on, so games don't go on for that long.

On the plus side: we drank a couple of good bottles of red wine and some of my dice bag whiskey.
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On the potential competitive viability of free for all
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2016, 05:31:29 PM »
How many of you guys actually have tried three player free for all in standard Arena? It is a very skill based, very fun format and it seems pretty balanced as far as I can tell. What you guys are saying about two players teaming up against one is technically true to some extent, but it also misrepresents the format. There is more mind games and bluffing in three player free for all, and the negotiating aspect opens up a whole new dimension of tactics that you don't get in 1v1 or in team play.

Saying that standard arena three player free for all is less balanced and skill based than 1v1 because two players will usually team up against the third, is like saying that if the world were divided into three equally sized countries with just as much access to natural resources, and one country became the most powerful, and then the other two teamed up against it, that that somehow proves that the scenario is totally unbalanced and unfair and the ultimate outcome is already determined the moment two countries team up against the third, and that having and developing good troops and economy and outsmarting the enemy and making them think you're more or less powerful than you really are, that none of that really matters because the outcome is simply determined by who teams up against who first. I'm sorry but that's just not true. You really should try playing the format before you jump to such conclusions.


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Re: On the potential competitive viability of free for all
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2016, 06:14:49 PM »
We play 1v1v1 and 2v2 on a 4x4 arena (just put another arena under and slide 1)

I never said I was unbalanced. Still it often feel like it gets 2v1 a lot of the time. Sometimes a player cannot win anymore, but he can decide who is going to win. And games are naturally longer than 1v1.

Last year at Viking-Con we did play the final as a 1v1v1, because we was 3 players left before last round.

We have played that format a lot, but I do like 2 vs 2 vs 2 Free for all better :)

And I just prefer some kind of timer so the games don't go on for ever. (I know this also happens in 1v1 arena)
All the new holy stuff are probably not going to help finish game early.
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