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Author Topic: Exile and arcane ward  (Read 16049 times)

zolikk

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Re: Exile and arcane ward
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2016, 02:55:25 AM »
I think he's saying that by restricting arcane ward, one is also making dispel practically unstoppable. With very few , costly exceptions.

Jinx isn't costly. But of course, it's not entirely reliable either.

I think the best way of countering Dispel is to just keep your enchantment hidden until it's most effective to reveal.

Either way, I don't find Dispel overpowered. It's an exactly 1-1 ratio to the enchantment in terms of mana cost and action cost. You lose the enchantment, the enemy loses the dispel. You will have a lot more enchantments than they have Dispels. So you just have to be adaptive and have a plan B, C etc. If he puts Dispel on a wand, then take the wand out, of course.

I guess you could change dispel to target the creature, not the enchantment, so that Nullify would protect against it... But I really don't agree that Dispel is overpowered just because it can't be stopped.

After all, arcane ward is a pretty new card, was Dispel considered overpowered before? I don't think so.

Halewijn

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Re: Exile and arcane ward
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2016, 03:18:28 AM »
I guess you could change dispel to target the creature, not the enchantment, so that Nullify would protect against it... But I really don't agree that Dispel is overpowered just because it can't be stopped.

If anything, I would argue that it's better to change Dissolve so it targets the equipment.  ::)

Dispel/disperse --> enchantment
[mwcard=DNJ02]Corrosive Orchid[/mwcard]/Crumble --> equipment

Dissolve is the only exception that targets the mage. (In reality we all know that the spell is spell is targeting the equipment too)

This way, the mechanics for enchantments and equipment would be the same. Changing this would also increase the value of the ward on equipment, as mentioned before in this tread.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 03:21:05 AM by Halewijn »
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iNano78

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Re: Exile and arcane ward
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2016, 07:14:02 AM »
I guess you could change dispel to target the creature, not the enchantment, so that Nullify would protect against it... But I really don't agree that Dispel is overpowered just because it can't be stopped.

If anything, I would argue that it's better to change Dissolve so it targets the equipment.  ::)

Dispel/disperse --> enchantment
[mwcard=DNJ02]Corrosive Orchid[/mwcard]/Crumble --> equipment

Dissolve is the only exception that targets the mage. (In reality we all know that the spell is spell is targeting the equipment too)

This way, the mechanics for enchantments and equipment would be the same. Changing this would also increase the value of the ward on equipment, as mentioned before in this tread.

There aren't enough differences between equipment and enchantments as it is, imho.  Making them "more the same" ... might as well change equipment to being a subtype of enchantments that can only target mages.

Given that enchantments are kind of unique to Mage Wars (the face-down thing with "instant speed" reveal that's the closest effect to being "in response" to something - although technically happens after a sub-step of an action), in order for equipment to feel "good" they have to do something that enchantments don't do.  e.g. Chestpieces are like Rhino Hide but usually get a "damage type -X" to make up for the fact that they don't get the "surprise" instant-speed reveal.  It would be nice if they were also more difficult to remove or to protect.  Armor Ward is kind of like Enchanter's Wardstone for equipment (but itself is an enchantment rather than a conjuration).  Battle Forge is a universally used spawnpoint for equipment (there are familiars that can cast enchantments, but they're all "mage-type only").  The Anvil Throne Warlord has abilities that work with equipment, letting him favour them over enchantments.

I liked that equipment could only be revealed by targeting the mage - and thus effects like Obscure on the mage could prevent equipment removal.  But Crumble (and Corrosive Orchid) changed things; now equipment is more like another type of enchantment, minus the instant reveal that makes enchantments really good.
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zolikk

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Re: Exile and arcane ward
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2016, 10:05:06 AM »


If anything, I would argue that it's better to change Dissolve so it targets the equipment.  ::)


Things like Dissolve target the Mage specifically so that Nullify works against them. Losing an important piece of equipment (not just the plain buffs ones but those that provide attacks/spells) hurts a lot more than an enchantment.

Doing what you suggest would essentially guarantee that Arcane Ward becomes a mandatory card in all spellbooks. I think we have enough of those already.

Mystery

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Re: Exile and arcane ward
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2016, 10:50:13 AM »


If anything, I would argue that it's better to change Dissolve so it targets the equipment.  ::)


Things like Dissolve target the Mage specifically so that Nullify works against them. Losing an important piece of equipment (not just the plain buffs ones but those that provide attacks/spells) hurts a lot more than an enchantment.

Doing what you suggest would essentially guarantee that Arcane Ward becomes a mandatory card in all spellbooks. I think we have enough of those already.

I would change anything about dissolve, rather crumble if a change, but the diversity is nice

and arcane ward or/and decoy is already mandatory for me!!!

Donovan

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Re: Exile and arcane ward
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2016, 12:13:47 PM »
I liked that equipment could only be revealed by targeting the mage - and thus effects like Obscure on the mage could prevent equipment removal.  But Crumble (and Corrosive Orchid) changed things; now equipment is more like another type of enchantment, minus the instant reveal that makes enchantments really good.

I liked your reasoning here. What is the difference between equipment and enchantments? Which one should be easier to remove? The answers to these questions should drive what is being targeted and what the spell costs are.

If you imagine how a "real" battle would go, I would however argue the other way around. You should be able to target equipment directly without targeting the mage. After all these are things he has on himself or holds in his hands.

On the other hand, enchantments are supposed to be magical alterations that mages produce. It would be "logical" to me if enchantments would require targeting the mage. This would be even more obvious if all enchantments had something like upkeep cost or disperse on them, which would underline that the mage's attention is needed to keep them active.

Enchantments that do not require upkeep/disperse would then be in fact conjurations. These would be objects that are created from magic and then become independent from the mage who conjured them.

But looking at the way Mage Wars has evolved enchantments, equipment and conjurations, in a relentless effort to offer us something excitingly new, everything has started to get attributes of everything. Now we have equipment with their own action or that act as enchantment. We have conjurations that act like creatures or display incantation-like behavior, we have enchantments that act like equipment and incantations that cannot be stopped by enchantments that were probably originally designed to stop those incantations and enchantments.

So everything is already blurred and the desire to keep things "pure" is probably already a lost case.

So I guess the best option we have is to go with the flow and take things as they are and as they are being offered to us and accept the fact that even despite the fact that the differences between equipment, enchantments and conjurations have started to blur, our imagination can still play along.

Maybe in a new future game the scope and restrictions of equipment, creatures, enchantments, incantations and attack spells can be thought out in advance and can be kept pure while evolving. But note, that this is much easier now based on the experience with Mage Wars then it was before Mage Wars saw the light. On the other hand, do we really want conjurations that cannot attack? Do we really want to add armor through equipment and not through enchantments? Do we really want upkeep cost or disperse on every enchantment?
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Halewijn

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Re: Exile and arcane ward
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2016, 12:41:07 PM »
I don't think every enchantment needs upkeep or dissipate tokens. Dissipate represents an effect that only lasts a minute or so but does not require any attention once it has been cast, like Giant Size or the song boosts, while bear strength and so on are smaller changes (enlarging muscles instead of entire body) that can easely last more than an hour. (aka, entire game)
Upkeep represents something that would disappear immediately once focus is lost.

Granted, there is a flaw with the dispel/dissolve/... thing, but it works fine for the game mechanics. I really do not feel at all that the difference between them is fading at all.

Conjurations are always objects that are not attached to your mage
Equipment is always an object attached/around your mage
Enchantments are basically incantations that last for a long(er) time
...

I also still feel a big difference between equipment and enchantments because of the interaction with so many different effects and spells. While protection for a nature mage can easily be done with enchantments, a warlock or warlord with a battle forge will probably rely on his equipment more.

- Dwarf ability
- Purge magic (not there for equipment)
- Arcane corruption
- Battle forge (universal)
- fellela (Nature mage only)
- armor ward
- Enchanters wardstone


My decission in a deck between enchantments and equipment is based on many things for each different deck.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 12:43:32 PM by Halewijn »
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Donovan

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Re: Exile and arcane ward
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2016, 01:11:49 PM »
I agree with you that these concepts are still very usable and although separations are not as pure as they were or could have been, there is still enough difference in place to work/strategize with, have fun with and to imagine how it would look like if it was real.
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