Psi-orb, Harshforge Monolith and hidden enchantments

[Kharhaz]

An object can legally have two copies of a hidden enchantment on it at the same time; mine and yours. You cannot knowing place the same hidden enchantment on a creature with the same name.


Name and school are not keyword traits true but they do not have a bearing on the game until the hidden enchantment is revealed.


If you cast a [mwcard=MW1E23]Jinx[/mwcard] while wearing an [mwcard=MW1Q01]Arcane Ring[/mwcard] you do not gain a reduction in mana. Only when you reveal it.

Casting ends at the resolve spell step and it becomes a hidden enchantment without a subtype.

... but does keep its name (because otherwise I could "knowingly" cast the same enchantment, etc) - right?

So it sounds like the only trait a face-down enchantment has is a name.  No subtype (or else you might get a discount on upkeep of a mind spell via Psi Orb when Harshforge Monolith is in play) or level (Enchantment Transfusion, for instance) or school (no reason... other than discount rings only work when it gets revealed).  But it has to have some identifier (e.g. name) to prevent you from "knowingly" casting a second Enchantment (face-up or face-down) that is already attached to the same object.

Is this in the rules/codex/supplement anywhere?  Probably should be...

The name is the only instance that a hidden enchantment can effect another spell in progress that I can think of in this moment; like moving my revealed bear strength to another one of my creatures with a hidden bear strength.

Keep in mind however that if there was a spell that said:
 
"Destroy all Bear Strengths"

It would only destroy the revealed bear strengths. The hidden enchantment name exception is isolated 100% to the owner for the purposes of having enchantments legally attached to it, as it is the only time it can come up currently.

So yes and no

[exid]

wow!
nothing's clear here...

i have one:
sectarus can't cast an enchantment without the curse type
but
you can cast a mind type enchantment on a creature with a mindshield

so the type is/isn't important for the casting of enchantment!, why would it be different later?
i think we are in a fog zone and need an official rulling...

[Kharhaz]

wow!
nothing's clear here...

i have one:
sectarus can't cast an enchantment without the curse type
but
you can cast a mind type enchantment on a creature with a mindshield

so the type is/isn't important for the casting of enchantment!, why would it be different later?
i think we are in a fog zone and need an official rulling...

[mwcard=FWE08]Mind Shield[/mwcard] is a different beast altogether since it is never a mandatory reveal. However, it is activated when an enchantment is revealed, and that is when you check target legality and it gets all its properties.

[exid]

wow!
nothing's clear here...

i have one:
sectarus can't cast an enchantment without the curse type
but
you can cast a mind type enchantment on a creature with a mindshield

so the type is/isn't important for the casting of enchantment!, why would it be different later?
i think we are in a fog zone and need an official rulling...

[mwcard=FWE08]Mind Shield[/mwcard] is a different beast altogether since it is never a mandatory reveal. However, it is activated when an enchantment is revealed, and that is when you check target legality and it gets all its properties.

right... sory...

[exid]

... but i still would love an official rulling about the unrevealed enchantments informations!

[Sailor Vulcan]

Are there any nonmandatory enchantments that both players would want on the same target object at the same time? I suppose maybe if two wizards wanted to put hoodwink on a sslak in Domination, or if two mages who like to use traps put decoys on the same zone, but other than that I can't think of any other examples...


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[Zuberi]

I think we are conflating separate things here. Spells, Hidden Enchantments, and Revealed Enchantments are all separate despite being represented by the same physical object; a card.

Spells, including Enchantment Spells, have lots of characteristics, such as traits and subtypes, that affect all sorts of things. They affect spellbook building as well as the abilities for different objects to prepare and cast the spell. They affect which targets are legal and the cost of the spell.

Hidden Enchantments have no affect on game play, unless otherwise specified. This means that they have no name, traits, types, subtypes, text, or other characteristics. Consider the front of the card to not even exist. While it's face down, it's a completely different object.

Revealed Enchantments again have lots of text and characteristics that tell you how they affect the game while they are in play.

Now that this difference is established, let's discuss some interactions. Casting a duplicate enchantment when the first is hidden is covered by an "otherwise specified" ruling that says known Hidden Enchantments can prevent further castings of the same card. This does not grant the Hidden Enchantment any affects on game play beyond this, so the Enchantment still does not have a name or any other characteristics. It's simply recognized as a known duplicate when determining legal targets for the new spell being cast.

Harshforge Monolith is another "otherwise specified" deal, where the Monolith specifies that Hidden Enchantments now do have a trait, the Upkeep +1 trait, while they are within it's range. The enchantment still is not a mind spell while hidden though, so it does not get the discount from Psi-Orb.

The Mind Shield question by Exxid is an interesting one. Technically I think you could reveal it during the casting of an enchantment spell. However, you would just be guessing as to whether or not the spell was a legal target. I do not think the rules currently cover how to handle this situation. If you are wrong, then you have to discard Mind Shield without effect. If you are right, their spell is countered. But how do you determine whether you're right or wrong? Do they just tell you without revealing or do they have to reveal their spell to prove it? If they reveal, that gives Mind Shield a powerful new capacity that I don't think it was designed for.

I would personally play it as they just tell you without revealing. After all, there's already a lot of inherent trust with enchantments, such as the duplicate rules and ensuring specific objects cast the correct types of enchantments, and none of it can be proven until they are later revealed.

[bigfatchef]

Hidden Enchantments have no affect on game play, unless otherwise specified. This means that they have no name, traits, types, subtypes, text, or other characteristics. Consider the front of the card to not even exist. While it's face down, it's a completely different object.

Well, they have a Strategic effect like traps and bluffs. There seems to be something and can change a lot.
Also hidden enchantment are not really like empty cards. If I am not totally wrong you can only attach them -even hidden- to a legal target (as long as you know about it). So you can not put bear strength in a zone. With empty cards it would be like that.

[exid]

I am not totally wrong you can only attach them -even hidden- to a legal target (as long as you know about it). So you can not put bear strength in a zone. With empty cards it would be like that.

yes, but that's a casting question

thanks Zuberi!
clear, as usual.

[Laddinfance]

Thank you, Zuberi. I think you've summed things up pretty well.

[iNano78]

I am not totally wrong you can only attach them -even hidden- to a legal target (as long as you know about it). So you can not put bear strength in a zone. With empty cards it would be like that.

yes, but that's a casting question

... that also comes back during an Enchantment Transfusion (e.g. you can't Transfuse to an illegal target for your previously-cast face-down Enchantment).  So the target still applies while face-down.  And it can't be Transfused onto an objectt that "knowingly" already has an identical Enchantment you control attached to it, whether that identical Enchantment is face-up or face-down.

[Zuberi]

I am not totally wrong you can only attach them -even hidden- to a legal target (as long as you know about it). So you can not put bear strength in a zone. With empty cards it would be like that.

yes, but that's a casting question

... that also comes back during an Enchantment Transfusion (e.g. you can't Transfuse to an illegal target for your previously-cast face-down Enchantment).  So the target still applies while face-down.  And it can't be Transfused onto an objectt that "knowingly" already has an identical Enchantment you control attached to it, whether that identical Enchantment is face-up or face-down.

Which is an "otherwise specified" situation. You have a specific card telling you to double check if it's being attached to a legal target, like you would when casting it, AND restricting legal targets further to a different creature in the case of enchantments that can normally be attached to other things, such as Harmonize. The target requirements are not in constant effect and we have evidence of this in the core rule book.

When you reveal an enchantment, check to be sure the target
listed on the enchantment matches the object it is attached to.
If it does not, destroy the enchantment without effect. In some
cases, the object may have changed and is no longer a valid target.

So, we have a hypothetical case where the object you've attached the enchantment to has changed during the course of game play. Perhaps it's become non-living without being destroyed first. Whatever the case, it is no longer a legal target of your enchantment even though it was when you cast it. This quote from the rule book seems very clear that as long as the enchantment is still face down, it does not get discarded despite the illegal target. You don't check legality again until it is revealed.

It's only because of the specifics of Enchantment Transfusion that the target is checked again while face down, and as soon as that is resolved the Hidden Enchantment again loses that characteristic.

[bigfatchef]

Thanks for the sumup. But what I wanted to point out is that a facedown enchantment can not be considered a card with no front because since attaching it to a target was only possible by respecting legality rules for that (and those are ruled by the front).

Now I guess you are strictly talking about a frozen moment when a fd enchantment is already attached. At this point there is nothing to take care of and your wording is exactly true.

[Kharhaz]

Thanks for the sumup. But what I wanted to point out is that a facedown enchantment can not be considered a card with no front because since attaching it to a target was only possible by respecting legality rules for that (and those are ruled by the front).

Negative.

When you cast an enchantment you follow all the normal rules for casting a spell; which includes checking targeting, range, etc. This is why you must have LoS to cast an enchantment. When that spell is resolved it becomes a hidden enchantment, instead of the normal spell casting procedure.

"Enchantments are different from all other types of spells in Mage Wars because they are played face down."

While it is a hidden enchantment it has no impact on the game as per the other box in the rules; unless otherwise stated by another effect that specifically acknowledges them.


Another example:
[mwcard=MW1E29]Nullify[/mwcard] works because it still follows the normal steps for casting a spell.