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Author Topic: On mana crystal effects and efficiency  (Read 79448 times)

sdougla2

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Re: On mana crystal effects and efficiency
« Reply #135 on: October 30, 2014, 06:37:13 PM »
I would say that Meditation Amulet never breaks even if you do not have another source of spell actions such as a Spawnpoint or Familiar because in that case actions are extremely valuable to you, whereas if you have a Spawnpoint, it may be worthwhile because mana can be more valuable than the full actions you are giving up.

To be fair, Crown of Protection costs 1 to cast, then 2 to activate.
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Enti

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Re: On mana crystal effects and efficiency
« Reply #136 on: October 30, 2014, 08:40:43 PM »
I don't think there is a way to exactly determine the efficiency of a mana crystal. Generalising you could state the obvious: If your mage wants to play long games, because of many different reasons (you have much more spells in your book, you have equipment that can bind spells, you need to build up a mana base before starting to summon creatures, …) you probably cast mana crystals in the beginning. Thus because you think, they are going to pay off.
If you play a beatdown/rush deck and you want to pressure your opponent as fast as possible, you probably will not “waste” a qc nor the mana for a crystal.

fas723

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Re: On mana crystal effects and efficiency
« Reply #137 on: November 05, 2014, 12:58:17 AM »

The value of a card just equals its mana cost? That is just not true. This is not fullmetal alchemist. There's no rule of equivalent exchange where the output resources (the stuff that gives it value) must always be equal to the input resources (actions/mana).


You have a point in that the action to cast the spell also contributes to its value. However most spells types have only quick cast or full cast within its type. So when comparing, let's say two enchantments they all zero our in delta in this aspect since they all are quick spelld. The hard part is to compare quick spell creatures or lightning bolt vs thunder bolt.

Maybe I should emphasize that I really see value of a card and it effect as two different things.
Value to me is the cost (mana and action) to play the card / spell.
Effect is how the played card / spell effects the game play.

So again. Two cards with the same value might have different effects (output / effect on the game) , and they might differ a lot! No matter what,  when AW have determined a value of a card it will be set and it's effect will be benchmarked towards other cards with the same value. Some cards will be used more then others because their effect will influence the game play enough to justify their value. 

Sailor Vulcan

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On mana crystal effects and efficiency
« Reply #138 on: November 05, 2014, 08:14:44 AM »

The value of a card just equals its mana cost? That is just not true. This is not fullmetal alchemist. There's no rule of equivalent exchange where the output resources (the stuff that gives it value) must always be equal to the input resources (actions/mana).


You have a point in that the action to cast the spell also contributes to its value. However most spells types have only quick cast or full cast within its type. So when comparing, let's say two enchantments they all zero our in delta in this aspect since they all are quick spelld. The hard part is to compare quick spell creatures or lightning bolt vs thunder bolt.

Maybe I should emphasize that I really see value of a card and it effect as two different things.
Value to me is the cost (mana and action) to play the card / spell.
Effect is how the played card / spell effects the game play.

So again. Two cards with the same value might have different effects (output / effect on the game) , and they might differ a lot! No matter what,  when AW have determined a value of a card it will be set and it's effect will be benchmarked towards other cards with the same value. Some cards will be used more then others because their effect will influence the game play enough to justify their value.

Why didn't you just say "cost" then? Using the word "value" like that makes it sound like you value a card more because it costs you more, rather than because it helps you more in the game.

And the ratio between cost and benefit of a card isn't always the same for every card, since the benefit of each card changes with the metagame, matchups and luck, even though the cost usually doesn't, so it can be difficult to perfectly predict exactly how much a card should ideally cost.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 08:18:27 AM by Sailor Vulcan »
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reddawn

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Re: On mana crystal effects and efficiency
« Reply #139 on: November 06, 2014, 10:31:22 PM »
As sIKE suggested earlier, I think the mana conjurations have value in that they can allow you to cast things you know you need while still having enough mana to be prepared for whatever else you might need later on.  For example, if you're going first and you're unsure what your opponent will do, and therefore unsure what you should play, something that gives you more mana is probably the safest play you can make, assuming you cast the next category...

Creatures.  You can always use more dice as rolling dice is pretty much the only way to win, and creatures are the most flexible way to get extra dice.  Creatures (sometimes other card types) with no specific abilities beyond providing dice, fat (hp/armor), and the ability to guard things, all at an efficient cost, are what I've come to call "generically good" or "vanilla."  These kind of creatures are spread across level and school, and I believe a mage's ease of access to these vanilla creatures is something that really contributes to the strength of that mage, because they're almost always a good play that helps you win, assuming you play them at the appropriate stage of the game (early, middle, late).  Here's a list of some by level:

Level 1 - grunts, foxes, falcons, skeletal minions, firebrand imp

Level 2 - timber wolves, butchers, slingers, gremlins, sentries, alchemists

Level 3 - the holy and dark knights/archers, bridge troll

Level 4 - grizzly

After level 4, I would say it gets less clear on which creatures are generically good to cast, but from level 5 onward, creatures either start flying, gaining enormous amounts of health, and/or ridiculous abilities like Unstoppable. 

After Acid Ball came out, I think this is why spawnpoints became good; they're basically engines that make dice, and given that more dice help you win, spawnpoints reliably contribute to wins.  Battleforge works in a similar, if more restrictive way.

Of course, there are cards that are not creatures that also help; Bear Strength, Rhino Hide, Regrowth, Agony, Divine Protection, various dice/armor boosting equipment, etc.  They all modify dice in some way and that's why they're staples; things that modify your ability to achieve your win-con and deny your opponent's ability to achieve their win-con are strictly good in any deck.  Though, you'll want to make sure you have enough offense; committing too much to defense won't actually help you destroy your opponent's mage.

Basically, I see mana flowers and crystals as a way of putting you in a position to keep spending mana on more powerful "generically good" creatures (and buffs) without being mana starved later on.  The class rings should come first, however.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2014, 10:34:58 PM by reddawn »
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