The rarely used (bad) creatures just go even worse with DvsN

[Shad0w]

Well, let me define some terms to make sure we're not talking at cross-purposes. When I say I want the game to be "vibrant" I mean that at mid-level* play I have the maximum number of build types that are effective, so for a vibrant game I want to be able to have the option of playing as (or playing against) a psychic heavy forcemaster or a necromancer or a golem-based wizard or a lot of other things. I want them all to be viable options. In option 1 (above) the psychic heavy forcemaster isn't viable because he just won't be able to play against the necromancer or the golem wizard, and I feel like that's a loss. In option 2, the necromancer and golem wizard have faded from play in favor of possibly-less-wonky-creature builds, and I feel like that's also a loss. Option 3 is the only option in which the number of viable builds (and, hence, "vibrancy") is maximized.

*I'll define this term, too. I think of mid-level games as the kind where all the players are competent, but no one is getting ready for a tournament or anything, and I don't know which mage I'm getting ready to play against so I haven't tailored my book for anything in particular. These are the kinds of games I spend most of my time playing and I suspect the same is true of others as well.

Great topic for another thread. Type of players and how they fit into MW community.

[Zuberi]

I don't think there's anything inherent in option 2 that says necromancer and golem wizard aren't still viable. Less common, yes, but in turn psychic control becomes more common and other builds as well. Overall the game remains quite diverse. Ideally every mage would be equally popular, which would give you currently a 1/10 chance of facing any given mage. Not all wizards go with golems or jellies, so your chances of a poor match up would be around 1/7. That's decent enough to still go with psychic control, though you will indeed be frustrated when you find yourself up against such a build. If this is too frequent a match up for you, then it can be reduced by adding new mages and creatures, increasing the diversity and vibrancy while making poor match ups for you less common.

[webcatcher]

Well, I guess we've just reached the agree-to-disagree part of the discussion.

[Myrddin]

No one's saying that creatures are useless in general if they can't stand up to nonliving creatures. Let's remember that the power levels of cards don't exist in a vacuum, their usefulness is defined by their interactions with other cards. The problem here is that the Johktari Beastmaster as she is, while she's pretty good in living matchups, she's at a HUGE disadvantage against nonliving. While it might not be entirely accurate to say that you can NEVER win against a Necromancer as the Johktari Beastmaster, it seems likely to me with her current spells and abilites that if someone plays her against a necromancer of equal skill, the necromancer will almost always win.

At the risk of stating the obvious, I think it's worth saying that one of the good things about Mage Wars is that it allows you to balance out your weaknesses. I don't have DvN yet, but my Jokhtari already has a handful of holy attack spells, precisely to balance her weakness against non-living. Obviously covering weaknesses carries a price, but it's not impossible, and the challenge is finding the balance between exploiting strengths and covering weaknesses.

As I said, no experience of fighting the necromancer. I suppose the best approach would be a straightforward attempt to assassinate the necromancer themselves. Obviously Wounded Prey would be wasted, but at least the Dire Wolves aren't forced by bloodthirst to munch on the cheap, hard-to-kill zombies and can focus on killing the necromancer.