trying to keep in mind the idea that the Forcemaster is not meant to have tons of creatures and that the Mind school as a whole is not meant for that.

Laddin, do you mean the FM isn't meant to have a lot of creatures in school, or a lot of creatures in play?  i.e. you're trying to force (see what I did there) it to be more solo/big buddy builds?  I'm kind of presuming the former.

The trouble is the mind creatures we've got kinda suck.  They've all got some good coolness to them, but (and perhaps its a meta problem), they struggle to stay alive and be worth the mana and tempo cost for getting them out.  I mean the Psyloc should be awesome, but its a one swat pony.  I looove invisible stalker, but spend most of my time trying to maintain action advantage so he does't go visible and leave the mage a chance to splat him and as a result hardly attacking with IS (I've read the discussion about the advantage of having the enemy mage constantly holding back an attack to strike IS).

If AW isn't anti FM's with lots of mind creatures in play, then the cantrip 'thought spore' concept seems kinda cool.  Like FM drops a thought and it cognates over 2-3 rounds and then eureka, you've a mind creature. 

Its ok, I think both are now just battling for world record longest rule discussion thread titles...

I never said it was idiotic.  There are ummm 'features'  to the immunity vs guard interaction that some people find less than intuitive and that others value for their simplicity.

I still like a tweak to guarding that you can't guard against an attack you're immune to, but don't think I'd introduce it over the rules as written.  There is a lot of hidden complexity in mage wars that mostly appears as elegant simplicity.... Until you break it.

I mean despite some of the issues identified on these forums (probably some of the most detailed mage wars discussions around I'd imagine)  most of a huge number of  spells, creatures and effects can be played easily,  as they appear/you'd think they should and without argument.  That's pretty amazing.

Enchantments are suppost to be revealled and benefit you immediatly.

I thought this was an interesting point, but wasn't sure of its umm integration with the MW design ethos/intent.  The end of this 'benefit you immediately' seems more a true statement for incantations.  I mean if you cast and incantation and it did nothing, itd be a dumb card (or really poor play).  But an enchantment is played face down for tempo, bluff, hedging your bets, mana conservation etc.  Knowing/deciding when to reveal it is a big part of the ebb and flow of the game, too soon you reveal your hand (sic), too late and you miss the optimum timing. 

Like someone (Sike I think) said, AF seems like it could go either way and I can see merits to both. But it doesn't seem that big a deal for the card to get revealed before the dice roll.  You've got something you really need to make sure you kill, you reveal it then.  Having it revealed doesn't negate the card or make it useless.  In some ways saving it up until you know it must be used seems a bit stronger, for 2 mana you can guarantee one timely re-roll (still doesnt guarantee a good roll, but its a statistical improvement). 

I guess one of the problems is that the dice roll is the primary point of uncertainty.  So almost everything else you can better estimate when you should reveal for best initial/immediate benefit.  AF revealed before a dice roll doesnt give you that certainty, you might reveal it, then roll awesomely.  Does that mean it wasn't worth having revealed it?  If your creature gets killed that round, probably annoying.... otherwise its an emerging threat to be considered.

I can't think of another decision with the same uncertainty - the other main uncertainty is around opponent face down enchantments, or what they will do with their actions.  But all of these would give you opportunity to reveal your own enchantments before resolution i.e. if a creature with a large stack of hidden enchantments declared an attack on your imp with face down rhino hide or similar, you can wait right through to the end of step 5 before you reveal it, so you'll have seen whatever they've rolled and what effects they're using before you decide.  I have been caught out by surprise teleports or rouse the beast moves which have meant I thought I'd picked the right moment to reveal my protection/use my defense and something nastier came along, but that's good play (or bad on my part).

I guess Jack's comment seems as good a question of intent as any, just how good an in the pocket card was AF meant to be?

PS I don't mean to be rule lawyering the fun out of the game, I was just enjoying the curves of the discussion. There are plenty of other threads that just seem meh, this one seems interesting and has people bouncing some interesting design/intent/solution thoughts around.


 

Its always kinda cute and a little bit encouraging for the rest of us when even the playtesters (who I sort of regard as the most experienced with the game nuances) get confused.

Indeed!

I guess I'd never thought of the dice re-roll as part of the spell effect, so kind of its own step.  So step 5 has ended, you reveal AF, and that allows you to do something.  In this case re-roll the dice. 

Ninja'ed

I don't know what it was, but defense isnt a guaranteed save whereas a block is... but then 1 mana is pretty cheap, I'd cast it