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Messages - Mithror

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Rules Discussion / Re: Stranglevine
« on: October 01, 2015, 02:41:46 AM »
Yes, errata is probably not necessary. A simple clarification in the rules supplement should be enough. I agree with all your points Zuberi. (2) would indeed change the actual mechanics of the life gain, but as you correctly pointed out, within the current ruleset, this would not make a difference. Another phrase that could have been used was: Each Crush token on Stranglevine gives it Life +2 and does 1 direct damage during upkeep.
Regardless, we should not dwell on what it should or could have said, as we can clarify via the rules supplement.

As to the reasoning why it gains 2 life for each crush token and does extra damage, I had an explanation for this in a previous post, but because it was in moderation, perhaps it was missed:

I can easily make the 2 life gain each time a token is added and increased damage make sense, as you could imagine the vine adding another coil for strangulation, each coil having 2 Life and starting with 3 coils. The first three just keep you in place, while each extra coil does 1 extra damage. Hence, each upkeep the damage increases, but the life gain does not.

It would have made more sense to be innate life in this explanation, hey, perhaps it uses magic to increase its length instead of growing and so Finite Life does affect it :)

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Events / Re: OCTGN Tournament: Thunderdome II
« on: September 30, 2015, 01:51:59 PM »
Ah cool, did not see that surging wave actually has the water attack icon. :)

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Events / Re: OCTGN Tournament: Thunderdome II
« on: September 30, 2015, 01:42:52 PM »
Awesome work, you guys. :)

Still trying to learn the game and I noticed something I couldn't explain: Why did Surging Wave roll 6 attack die against the Battleforge instead of 3? I did not see any increased ranged attack buffs.

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Rules Discussion / Re: Stranglevine
« on: September 30, 2015, 02:30:16 AM »
I think we all agree that it's just bad wording. If it would have said "Stranglevine has Life +2X", there would not have been any difficulties (except in the manner of interpreting variable traits dynamics). By using the word gain here and not starting after a line break, it can just as easily be interpreted as a continuation of the previous sentence and thus as an extra action in response to adding the Crush token.

Like, I said, in my now moderator approved post (thanks for that! :))), thematically it makes sense for Stranglevine to have 2 life extra each upkeep. But there are ways this could have been written down, that would have led to less confusion:
  • Give it the Life +2X trait (i.e. same as Upkeep +X)
  • Have the text say: When you pay Stranglevine's Upkeep cost, it gains 2 Life and the creature attached receives X direct damage
  • (Make the health an X and explain that X = 6 + 2 * number of Crush tokens.)
As it is right now, you *can* interpret it both ways, whether it was intended or not. Hence, why an addition to the rules supplement would be a good idea!

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Website Support and Feedback / Re: Posting limits
« on: September 29, 2015, 11:45:02 AM »
Is it still two posts? Because this is my third one and I still get the:

Note: this post will not display until it's been approved by a moderator.

message when I make a new post. Kind of difficult to add to a discussion if it needs to be approved each time, especially when living in a different timezone from the moderator :)

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Rules Discussion / Re: Stranglevine
« on: September 29, 2015, 02:26:37 AM »
A lot of interesting points, thanks for redirecting me to laddinface's post. That certainly makes it clear how to play it. In this case, though, it would have made more sense to have the card say: Gain Life +2. Or have it say Life +2X, next to Upkeep +X. As it is now, it would definitely need to be in the rules supplement to avoid confusion!

I can easily make the 2 life gain each time a token is added and increased damage make sense, as you could imagine the vine adding another coil for strangulation, each coil having 2 Life and starting with 3 coils. The first three just keep you in place, while each extra coil does 1 extra damage. Hence, each upkeep the damage increases, but the life gain does not. In this sense too it would have made sense if the card had said: Gain Life +2. As that could have been linked to the steps to undertake in the upkeep phase: add Crush token, X damage, Life +2. Even better, the card could just have said: When you pay Stranglevine's Upkeep cost, it gains 2 Life and the creature attached receives X direct damage.. A bit less text and more clear for ruling! :)

With regards to Finite Life, I think it makes sense that the Life is stuck at whatever is was before the trait applied and gets bumped to the correct (6 + 2X) value once the trait goes away, so I agree with the assumption  made that this is probably the correct way to interpret:

3. Changes to the variable have their own time stamp separate from the Life +X trait, allowing Finite Life to prevent further increases to the trait but not negating the increases already acquired. This is what I believe to be correct, but only by making assumptions as to the designers intentions. All three are equally valid according to the official rules we currently have, as far as I know. As echephron stated, I too was not a playtester yet for this card.
It would be nice to get confirmation of this in the rules supplement though :)

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Rules Discussion / Stranglevine
« on: September 28, 2015, 10:45:21 AM »
So, I'm fairly new to MW, been playing with the GF and we love it. I've been looking at the new videos for the Ro8 of the Thunderdome II tournament (awesome work, you guys) and I now have a question about this card. This actually also kinda come up a game we played here yesterday.

The description on [mwcard=DNJ10]Stranglevine[/mwcard] is as follows:
Quote
The target is Restrained and gains the Unmovable trait. Each Upkeep phase, before paying Stranglevine's upkeep cost, place 1 Crush token on Stranglevine. X = the number of Crush tokens on Stranglevine. When you pay Stranglevine's Upkeep cost, this creature receives X direct damage. Stranglevine gains Life +2X.
Stranglevine cannot target creatures with the Flying or Uncontainable traits. Ranged attacks cannot target Stranglevine.

The way we played it, was that the life of strangelevine just equals: 6 + 2X and that seems to be the consensus when looking info on this card and looking at how the tournament deals with it. However, I'm beginning to believe that this is wrong. Is there any official ruling on this? I have not found anything in the rules or rules supplement.

The issue with this card stems from the phrase: Stranglevine gains Life +2X. No where is it specified when it gains this. Imo, there are two ways to interpret the description, with the first one being:

Quote
The target is Restrained and gains the Unmovable trait. Each Upkeep phase, before paying Stranglevine's upkeep cost, place 1 Crush token on Stranglevine. X = the number of Crush tokens on Stranglevine. When you pay Stranglevine's Upkeep cost:
  • this creature receives X direct damage.
Stranglevine gains Life +2X.
Stranglevine cannot target creatures with the Flying or Uncontainable traits. Ranged attacks cannot target Stranglevine.
Which is what the appears to be the accepted way of playing this card. The idea is that the text fires once and it now has Life +2X trait on it, after which the phrase does not do anything anymore. Thus, because of the trait, every upkeep it increases its life by 2 (if you keep paying upkeep and is thus not discarded). But... it does not say it gains the Life +2X trait. It just says that it gains Life +2X. With that in mind, you could actually rule it as firing once, when cast and thus gaining no extra life. After which the phrase does nothing anymore. There are more complications as well, see later.

The second interpration could be:
Quote
The target is Restrained and gains the Unmovable trait. Each Upkeep phase, before paying Stranglevine's upkeep cost, place 1 Crush token on Stranglevine. X = the number of Crush tokens on Stranglevine. When you pay Stranglevine's Upkeep cost:
  • this creature receives X direct damage.
  • Stranglevine gains Life +2X.
Stranglevine cannot target creatures with the Flying or Uncontainable traits. Ranged attacks cannot target Stranglevine.
Here, the phrase is triggered every upkeep phase, just like the damage. It does not need to specify it is gaining a trait, it just gains +2X life. Hence, first time it gains 2 Life, second time it gains 4, then 6, ... I can't find any complications here, like I do with the first interpretation. So, to me, this seems like the correct interpretation. Other than that it seems like its giving it a lot of life, which might break the card's balance?

It seems to me that this card should probably be clarified a bit more, perhas in the rules complement to indicate what the correct ruling is here.

For those who know the situation that occurred in the tournament, it probably would not have made any difference. Deathlock should either have stopped the gaining of an additional 2 or an additional 2X. Though with Deathlock in play, the first interpretation becomes even more troublesome, because we can't tell what happens when you change a trait. Does the first one go away to be replaced by the new one? Does it change instantly? These distinctions would need to be made for Deathlock to be properly evaluated. Another complication which does not arise in the second interpretation.

Any thoughts?

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