Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: paradox22 on September 09, 2012, 06:09:02 AM
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I've played two games now (warlock v beastmaster & priestess v beastmaster), and both times I've fallen under a swarm sent forth by the beastmaster. Im looking for specific weaknesses he generally suffers from and tactics and strategies you guys find successful. Should I try to make it all the way over to his spawn zone and take it out? I will probably play the priestess vs him again...what does she offer to counter and defeat the beastmaster?
Thanks in advance for the help. : )
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I don't have a lot of experience with the game yet but I would think if you expect your opponent to bring a swarm of small creatures, go with zone effect spells like electrify. 9 Mana buys a lot of 4 dice attacks with great odds of Daze/stun effects. Put down some damage walls between you and if they come through, force push them back making them hit twice again before they can reach you. Put a gas cloud on the backside of the wall so they also take damage from that.
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yes AOE spells and damage walls can help (with pushes and such) taking out the spawn point can also help (or putting a gas cloud on the spawn point) also a damage barrier (the circle of lightning) can help greatly.
as the priestess you could try throwing up some walls of stone so he has to come through one point, put some knights of westlock guarding that zone, and some archers in other zones shooting in, with clerics and your mage healing as necessary. havent tried that personaly but it could work in theory if you can get it up fast enough.
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Those are some good suggestions. I hadn't thought of a gas cloud on the spawn zone or using walls to form a bottleneck. I'll have to playtest those a bit.
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Another suggestion: You can go with the "single big creature" approach. While your opponent is sending out tons of weeny creatures, you summon a big bad creature and then use the rest of your mana to make him virtually unkillable (nullify, block, reverse attack, reverse magic, bear strength, bull endurance, cheetah speed, etc.) then he should be taking out the little creatures one at a time pretty easily. While your opponent is running out of creatures to send at you, your one creature is just destroying them.
Another option is that the best defense is a good offense. Sometimes against a swarm, I'll just totally ignore the swarm and start throwing fireballs at the enemy mage, throw my big creature at him, or attack him with a mage with tons of equipment. In this way, he now has to focus on defense, but generally if a player has put all they've got into swarming, they don't have any walls, or mana crystals, or equipment on them.
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Good stuff! I've wanted to summon one of the big bad angels and "trick them out" since I first laid eyes on them.. Could possibly combine it with some bottlenecks. Can't wait to test some of this stuff out. :)
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Sean brings up a good point. Be aggressive.
The swarm is powerful, but slow. Time is what the swarm needs to build it's advantage. All those creatures come into play exhausted, i.e. a turn behind, whereas direct attacks happen now and on the next turn.
AoE attacks take out most swarm creatures in 1 or 2 turns.
Finally, the bottleneck strategy can work, if the other player is impatient and sends his creatures in one at a time. However, if he's patient, then you are just giving him the time he needs to grow the swarm, so be careful with that strategy.
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Sean brings up a good point. Be aggressive.
The swarm is powerful, but slow. Time is what the swarm needs to build it's advantage. All those creatures come into play exhausted, i.e. a turn behind, whereas direct attacks happen now and on the next turn.
AoE attacks take out most swarm creatures in 1 or 2 turns.
Finally, the bottleneck strategy can work, if the other player is impatient and sends his creatures in one at a time. However, if he's patient, then you are just giving him the time he needs to grow the swarm, so be careful with that strategy.
I will be playing the Priestess, she's not the most aggressive caster. My understanding of her playstyle is basically attrition...i.e. "out last your opponent." Not sure how well attrition can aggressively counter the swarm.
...Possibly get a big creature out to harass the opponent, then turtle up behind some walls and poison clouds...maybe get a couple knights out, backed up by some clerics? I dunno, seems like it'll take forever...
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You are right.
The Priestess does not have the arsenal of the Warlock, but she can be an effective offensive force. What she lacks in sheer power she can make up for in staying power. Her healing and protection spells allow her to hamper the enemy and stay in the fight, while she wears down her opponent.
Add in an Angel and some other support creatures/conjurations, and she might surprise you.
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Well...I played against the beastmaster again, and the Priestess got eaten alive by another swarm of teeth and claws.
I started off aggressive by summoning the big angel, Samandriel (sp?) and putting block, Nullify, and cheetah speed on her, then rushing the beastmaster in his starting space. Things were going very well. I was slaughtering any of the small level 1 or 2 beasts he was pumping out. Then he summoned Tarok, The Sky Hunter w/ Bear strength. My poor angel was quickly sent back to heaven. Tarok is a very powerfull counter to flying creatures. After she was killed my gameplan of using a big creature for interference while I built a good "fortress" quickly crumbled.
I admit I made some mistakes... I should've healed her more than I did... the first heal spell I used only healed 4 damage (my dice rolls were pretty horrible all night). I think instead of trying to attack Torok, I should have had Samandriel attack and destroy his Lair spawn point. That thing is instrumental in getting a swarm going. I also should've buffed the angel more with bears strength, regeneration, etc...
Hopefully I can get in another game this week and try again. I'm not giving up on the Priestess until I get her to work! : )
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from what ive seen its all pretty balanced overall you just have to find the right strategy and right nitch to do the job. how much of a fortress did you get going while he was dealing with your angel?
also take a look at the grey angels for healing. you can use them to attack and when you need them, (or when they are about to die) pop them for the healing.
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from what ive seen its all pretty balanced overall you just have to find the right strategy and right nitch to do the job. how much of a fortress did you get going while he was dealing with your angel?
also take a look at the grey angels for healing. you can use them to attack and when you need them, (or when they are about to die) pop them for the healing.
I had a pretty good amount of stuff out by the time she died... I had the temple spawnzone, the temple that can make a ranged attack, the hand of bim-shall and a mana crystal, along with rhino hide on the peiestess, and the electricity damage shield and the crown of protection.. As for creatures i had 3 clerics out along with a knight iirc. I wanted to put out some walls, but forgot to include them in my spellbook.
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And after all that on the battlefield The Beastmaster was able to kill you ? With all the support from the card that you mentioned? What happened ?
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the walls would have helped to create that chokepoint. i hate it when i forget to add something i wanted too.
with the temple spawnzone i would have stopped at 2 clerics (enough to max out the pray on the temple) the clerics are good support but alone they die horrably you want to keep them out of combat as much as possible. after you get your defencive force beefed you can summon more for healing.
the temple that makes the ranged attack im not sure i would have added to this build. with that you want as many cheap temples out as possible to make that attack larger (when it starts shooting 6 dice damage its dangerous) (this is another type of priestess deck you could try to beat the swarm) if you want the shooty temple in this deck, try not casting it till right before you want to shoot it so its a surprise. like, throw out 5 other temples, then the beastmaster starts to run up, then boom drop the temple and shoot it (since it doesnt take an action to shoot)
with the things on your priestess i would wait untill right before you need them. the damage barrier is nice but is useless untill you get attacked. if you can keep her out of combat with other creatures thats better. i would try to get the walls, 2 knights and 2 archers out asap. the 2 knights to guard the chokepoint and 2 archers to shoot in. then add to your numbers as you can.make sure you have healing for your knights and try to kill whatever enters the choke point the same turn it comes at you. if he really throws a lot at once maybe try a surprise chain lightning spell, or a AOE holy spell
these are just my thoughts i havent actually tried this at all.
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multi temples sounds fun, but aren't there only two included in the game right now? The spawn point, and the ranged attack one? don't have my cards with me atm.
Thanks for all the suggestions Klaxas
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There are, I believe, four different temples. I dont have my cards in front of me, but the holy spawnpoint, Bim-Shala, damage temple (remember, that structure is itself a temple and gets an attack die for itself), and one other that lets you re-roll dice under certain circumstances, pump the damage temple to four fairly quickly.
I've used a temple spell book twice, and it runs fairly well IMO.
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Wow, I'll have to check my cards when I get a chance... Had no idea those were "temples". Hell, I had the the hand of bim-shalla out along with the other 2, and I was only rolling 2 dice to attack with. ...Fail :pinch:
Gonna restructure my spellbook tonight, and probably all week. Hopefully have another game this Friday. really wanna utilize some walls with the priestess and try to "turtle up". Now, which wall do I want to use... Hmmmmm
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And after all that on the battlefield The Beastmaster was able to kill you ? With all the support from the card that you mentioned? What happened ?
Not sure which card youre talking about Kam, but the short answer is: After my BIG angel got pwned by his character bird w/ bear strength (the skyhunter), I simply got out mana'ed and swarmed with animals. I couldnt summon my expensive defensive troops as fast as he could summon 2-3 of his cheap offensive troops per round. It's what the beastmaster excells at, especially when he has his spawnpoint out (+ a mana flower and the mana amulet)...which is why I wish I'd had my Angel destroy that thing before she died and not focus on the giant bird.
Oh well... lesson learned. :)
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as for which wall to use, currently i would say wall of stone. its the only one that completely prevents movement till its destroyed.
also another thing you could have considered is using your angel to kill his lair off. remember the lair is epic so once you kill it he cant get it back.
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Yep, I agree, already added in two stone walls. Also agree that before my Angel died I should have had her destroy the lair. Next time I'll know better.
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and if he kills off your angel with skyhunter, you could always shoot him down with archers then resurect your angel.
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and if he kills off your angel with skyhunter, you could always shoot him down with archers then resurect your angel.
Oh, I have two Gray Angels in my book. Speaking of...How many creatures do you guys think is optimal for the priestess? I figured since she provides alot of staying power for her creatures she might not need that many. Between +armor from the crown, Aegis from enchantments, and healing/regen, they should stick around fairly long.
Think I've got the following: 2 clerics, 1 archer, 2 gray angels, 2 knights, a unicorn, Smandrial and Brogan Bloodstone.
I dunno, feels like I don't have enough though... :unsure:
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One thing I noticed tonight playing my Wizard against swarm is using reverse attacks and and aoes really helps. I'd generate a ton of mana. Then zap all his stuff then use a big spell on him. Anything you can do to get them to waste actions helps. Set him on fire so he has to dowse his burn instead of buffing. Play decoys so he goes to disenchant them. Teleport a lot so he has to move a lot. Unpredictability seems to be the key against the swarm. A tactic I wanna try is baiting them all into a corner zone, walling it off then teleporting.
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except if you wall it off you couldnt teleport out as you have to see the zone you want to teleport too. which you cant if there is a wall. unless you want to fly.
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except if you wall it off you couldnt teleport out as you have to see the zone you want to teleport too. which you cant if there is a wall. unless you want to fly.
You can teleport anywhere you want. You need line of sight from the caster to the target. Since, in this scenario, the Mage is targeting himself, line of sight is irrelevant.
Furthermore, the section in the rule book on teleporting (pg. 14) specifically says that teleportation bypasses all walls.
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Plan your turns and you will be good. Your are correct let the swarm player be the person who overextends.
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if you have an ability that lets you move as a teleport (ie the blue gremlin) yes it bypasses walls, but if you look at the teleport card it doesnt say target creature, it says target creature and target zone, you move target creature to target zone so both have to be in line of sight.
and both have to be within the 0-2 range so you cant teleport yourself 4 squares. although you could teleport one creature 2 squares away to a zone 2 squares on the otehr side of you.
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if you have an ability that lets you move as a teleport (ie the blue gremlin) yes it bypasses walls, but if you look at the teleport card it doesnt say target creature, it says target creature and target zone, you move target creature to target zone so both have to be in line of sight.
and both have to be within the 0-2 range so you cant teleport yourself 4 squares. although you could teleport one creature 2 squares away to a zone 2 squares on the otehr side of you.
That is correct we talked about this at Gencon.
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I stand corrected.
I did not notice that the teleport spell has 2 targeting requirements.
Good to know.
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most people do not notice it. I even missed it after a 14 hour day of demoing.
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honestly, ive missed targeting requirements on a lot of cards. the ones i usually miss are "non mage" and i assume they can target any creature.
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out of curiosity, how effective is Mordok's Obelisk at oppressing/suppressing a swarm? Is that strategy best used with the Wizard (with other mana sapping effects) or can it be used effectively with another mage type?
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It all depends on how much your opponent has played against mana draining builds. If they do not plan for it a well time Mordok can be game breaking. Personally I try to have no more than 5 creatures down during my swarm just in case of of things like Mordok's.
Also if your going to slow down somebodies mana add Mana Siphon and Essence Drain (put if on the threat creatures not the weenies.)
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Priestess doesn't have much of a problem in my games. She can control the direction of attack with walls and her Archers tend to be able to weaken the swarm as it approaches enough to finish off the weenies before they are too much a threat.
-nihil
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Priestess doesn't have much of a problem in my games. She can control the direction of attack with walls and her Archers tend to be able to weaken the swarm as it approaches enough to finish off the weenies before they are too much a threat.
-nihil
I have recommended this before and it does work if they give you the few extra turns to set it up.
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If I start the game by laying down a wall I have immediately shut down 1 avenue of attack, thus forcing my opponent to approach from the angle of my choosing or deal with the wall. Depending on the situation and the opponent I will often do this and a mana flower or this and an archer or this and a spawnpoint or whatever. The wall immediately forces the opponent to play on your terms. I don't need them to "allow" me to put down a wall...I just do it.
-nihil
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I used 2 walls to create a bottleneck and my opponents buffed up warlock simply smashed his way through. It slowed him down a bit, but thats about it. Walls are good, but not without flaws/counters.
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I used 2 walls to create a bottleneck and my opponents buffed up warlock simply smashed his way through. It slowed him down a bit, but thats about it. Walls are good, but not without flaws/counters.
Key phrase has been bolded.
Your opponent had to utilize resources to smash his way through, much like you had to expend resources to make him need to do so. The difference is that you were forcing the avenue of attack, and he had to take time and resources to deny that force. Controlling the flow of battle whether he goes around or goes through is the same result; he's playing on your turf, and playing by your rules. Yes, walls can be destroyed. Yes, they are not too difficult to destroy. However, in destroying them, you are taking time away from your attack and that is just as good from the defender's perspective. While you take your actions to destroy my wall, my Archers are taking shots at you. While you concentrate on my wall, I'm free to drop the Aegis 1 zone enchantment in the area I'm protecting.
At any rate, no, nothing is foolproof or certain, but Walls are very important strategic elements, and, when used correctly, can utterly devastate an in-your-face approach.
-nihil
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Remember Nihil, that walls block LoS so if your archers can't see the over the walls then they can't attack over them.
Though, using walls to block a spawn point or bottle-neck certainly is the way to go. Especially when you have put up DOT zones like Poison Cloud to cause their creatures early damage when coming out of the spawn point, and depending on where they placed the spawn point, you could completely isolate the creatures coming from the zone. A good tactic that I have developed to deal with those points in to play a Poison Cloud, and throw in two or three Walls of Fire, depending on placement of the spawn point, so that the walls can't be hurt by physical attacks and i have a forced path for walkers to take. The DOT damage makes killing a lot easier, and the loss of the "sprint" action keeps swarmers from running creatures out of their spawn points. Should they try to run through the fire I have a Force Push waiting to send them back. Sure, I have to spend 3 mana to send them back through, but that equals out to 10 attack dice worth of damage at a max of 20 regular damage (if you perfect rolled reg. dmg) or 20 crit damage (again if you perfect rolled) and 2 - 4 burn tokens.
If a swarmer tries to run through that, their creatures would seriously be in pain.
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As a Wizard I would just put on a Suppression Cloak and laugh as the swarm guy ran out of Mana. It's almost hilarious how strong Suppression Cloak is.
As the Warlock I would blast the entire swarm out of existence with Firestorm or Ring of Fire. No subtlety required.
As the Priestess, check out Sacred Ground. The AoE Aegis 1 is just amazing against swarm decks. Reducing 2- and 3- dice attacks to 1- and 2- dice means that a lot of the enemy hits will do zero damage against anything with positive Armor. Even Asyran Clerics (1 armor, 5 hp) can be annoyingly hard to kill when standing in Sacred Ground.
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yes AOE spells and damage walls can help (with pushes and such) taking out the spawn point can also help (or putting a gas cloud on the spawn point) also a damage barrier (the circle of lightning) can help greatly.
I love the cloud on the spawn point. That is great.
Suppression Cloak works well, as does flying. Just cast Eagle Wings.
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Suppression Cloak works well, as does flying. Just cast Eagle Wings.
Be careful. Eagle wings is non-mage only, and the beastmaster can always counter flying with Tarok the skyhunter...awesome defense, and +2 vs flying creatures. Couple that with bears strength, and the bird can dominate with air superiority.
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Suppression Cloak works well, as does flying. Just cast Eagle Wings.
Be careful. Eagle wings is non-mage only, and the beastmaster can always counter flying with Tarok the skyhunter...awesome defense, and +2 vs flying creatures. Couple that with bears strength, and the bird can dominate with air superiority.
Eagle Wings is non-mage only? Crap! Totally missed that. I used that in my last game on my mage, doh. Those targeting lines sure are pesky and easy to overlook :oops:
That's kind of crazy that it's non-mage only though. If it was seen as powerful for a mage, why not just have a steep Magebind cost? Guess they don't want their mages flying...looks like I'll have to rely on Teleport and gaining the Fast trait for my mobility.
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yeah, I missed it too during my second game. ...Wanted to have my priestess flying with her bow + eagle eye raining down shots. : )