Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spells => Topic started by: DaveW on December 02, 2018, 07:27:30 AM
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Has anyone used Swamp much? I happened to have it in a book that I played Friday night... Saturday morning... depending on what time it happened.
My opponent cast a little invisible Force dude with Elusive through a Minds Eye in my zone. I panicked thinking that I had no counter. You can't target the stupid thing without a zone attack or the like... and I had a bunch of Zombies in the zone... I'd have to put everyone in the zone on guard just to be able to kill it (or accept that it was going to get attacks in with impunity until it dissipated).
Then I read the details on the Swamp spell during Spell Prep. Get's rid of Elusive... so now he has to go against guards... cool. Then I also saw that it makes all Creatures slow... so other creatures entering the zone can't attack on the same turn... even better. Then I realized that I was playing a FM with his annoying Force Pull ability and that the Swamp keeps my Creatures from being pulled out of the zone... I'm sold. Send me a dozen.
Maybe it was just a niche application that night... but I'm wondering whether anyone else may have any Swamp success stories. If so, with which Mage? I was playing a Necro that time.
Anyone?
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I have an Arena Druid spellbook that uses Swamp and Elephant Grass along with a Shoalsdeep Crocodile. The Academy Druid has some additional spells that should combo nicely with this terrain, but I have not updated my spellbooks yet.
The Swamp spell also combines with the Whirlpool for added damage and restricting movement. The Druid is the only mage fully trained in the Swamp spell so I primarily use it with that mage. However, it also fits with Siren strategies and has general application for other mages as you point out above.
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Johktari can walk into swamp and still act.
She also has synergies with crocs and falcons, who don't care about swamp.
Not getting Pulled is also a nice thing if you have a bow equipped and want to stay away. If you place two swamps in the center zones you can walk from one to the other and basically make melees worthless.
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One thing that I didnt note earlier, is that having Slow from the swamp doesn't impede Zombies when using Zombie Frenzie.
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Also remember anything can walk out of the swamp and act normally...
Swamp would see a lot more use if Steep Hill didn't exist. It's not a bad card at all, but it needs specific combos, the hill is generally better to slow offense.
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Also remember anything can walk out of the swamp and act normally...
Swamp would see a lot more use if Steep Hill didn't exist. It's not a bad card at all, but it needs specific combos, the hill is generally better to slow offense.
So the Slow only lasts while in the Swamp... I don't get how this works.
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Also remember anything can walk out of the swamp and act normally...
Swamp would see a lot more use if Steep Hill didn't exist. It's not a bad card at all, but it needs specific combos, the hill is generally better to slow offense.
So the Slow only lasts while in the Swamp... I don't get how this works.
If a non-Fast creature moves into the Swamp, it's turn ends (e.g. can't take a quick action after movement). But a creature can double-move into a Swamp, whereas it can't double-move into Steep Hill. (Also a Fast creature can't move into a Steep Hill and follow up with a Quick action, whereas it could into a Swamp since it would merely lose Fast). Similarly, a creature can get Pushed into a Swamp, but not out of it.
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Perfect explanation from iNano78.
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zuberi !!
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Perfect explanation from iNano78.
Except that my confusion is on what happens when a creature leaves the swamp... not enters it.
EDIT: To make it more clear... my question revolves around the "loss" of Slow upon exiting the Swamp. The Creature then is considered "normal" (i.e. no longer slowed)... so could it then take a second move or attack, etc. in the new zone?
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Perfect explanation from iNano78.
Except that my confusion is on what happens when a creature leaves the swamp... not enters it.
EDIT: To make it more clear... my question revolves around the "loss" of Slow upon exiting the Swamp. The Creature then is considered "normal" (i.e. no longer slowed)... so could it then take a second move or attack, etc. in the new zone?
From the slow condition:
"If this creature takes a move action, its
Action Phase immediately ends. It does not get to take a quick action
after moving."
So if you take a move action while you have the slow condition, that action ends immediatley after the move action.
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Sorry DaveW for not addressing that concern. Basically it's a question of when do you check for the slow trait ending the creature's action. I don't think it's made it into the supplement, but the decision is at the end of the move action. That way if something gains slow mid move it still affects them, as opposed to checking when they begin their move action.
Another option would be a constant check, but that doesn't feel right for cases in which it is removed mid move. For example, you start your move action, and your opponent reveals Enfeeble. Well, now you're slowed. You then reveal Cheetah Speed. That cancels it out and you're not slowed. By the time you end your movement, should you have lost your quick action due to being Slowed for just a microsecond? No. That would defeat the entire point of the counterplay.
So, bringing that in to the situation of leaving the Swamp, you lose the slow trait before ending your movement. Thus it doesn't negatively affect you.
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Sorry DaveW for not addressing that concern. Basically it's a question of when do you check for the slow trait ending the creature's action. I don't think it's made it into the supplement, but the decision is at the end of the move action. That way if something gains slow mid move it still affects them, as opposed to checking when they begin their move action.
Another option would be a constant check, but that doesn't feel right for cases in which it is removed mid move. For example, you start your move action, and your opponent reveals Enfeeble. Well, now you're slowed. You then reveal Cheetah Speed. That cancels it out and you're not slowed. By the time you end your movement, should you have lost your quick action due to being Slowed for just a microsecond? No. That would defeat the entire point of the counterplay.
So, bringing that in to the situation of leaving the Swamp, you lose the slow trait before ending your movement. Thus it doesn't negatively affect you.
I don't disagree with logic, but the wording of takes leads me to think that the slow "effect" is present when you TAKE that action, regardless of whether or not the condition remains at the end of the move action, and at any time during that action.
In your example, you have the opportunity to reveal the speed before the slow resolved. Split second slowing is nothing new. You can Enchantment Transfusion an enfeeble for a "microsecond" slow.
I always understood it as the difference between takes and action vs took an action. Mid-move is taking an action whereas if it said took a move action then it would only check at the end of the action.
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Thanks for chatting about it... I look forward to your esteemed decision.
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I look forward to your esteemed decision.
The decisions was made a year or more ago. It's just not made it in to print, which is down to AW.
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Oh good... glad to hear.
What was the decision? Or do I have to wait for AW to print it?
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The decision was as I described it. You check at the end of the move action and thus you can leave the swamp unaffected. Kharhaz just didn't get the memo, which I'm sure a lot of people didn't. It was just handled in private chats and hasn't made it into print yet.
I also want to recognize that Kharhaz's logic is sound. That is probably how I would have interpreted the codex definition also. The key thing here is that that definition was written before this was a problem, before movement had steps. Back then, you just moved and it was instantaneous. Which had its own problems (there's reasons we don't do it that way anymore) but did mean that this wasn't a concern. You couldn't lose slow mid move. You either had it or your didn't.
The decision wasn't based on that previous definition so much as what was best for the game. Basically, the arguments I talked about regarding if we checked at the beginning, end, or constantly were all discussed and it was decided that checking at the end worked best.
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soo, to clear things a little in my head,
swamp is nice for being defensive, they cant attack you if they move it, BUT if they leave it's stop affecting them and you can do two moves/attack etc. well you leave the swamp ,it kind of annoyed me at the start but it makes sense, you leave the swamp, it doesnt affect you anymore
was it different at any point of the game before?
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soo, to clear things a little in my head,
swamp is nice for being defensive, they cant attack you if they move it, BUT if they leave it's stop affecting them and you can do two moves/attack etc. well you leave the swamp ,it kind of annoyed me at the start but it makes sense, you leave the swamp, it doesnt affect you anymore
was it different at any point of the game before?
They actually can attack on entry in some cases. For example, Cervere is Fast. If he moves from an adjacent zone into the Swamp, he then gains Slow. At that point the Fast and Slow nullify each other and Cervere can take any other action that it wants... to move again or to attack in the Swamp. Note that if Cervere moves into the Swamp, and then out, it sounds as if it could attack in that second zone as it no longer has Slow (regains Fast) once in that new zone. Note also that a Fast Creature moving from two zones away (or a "normal speed" Creature from one zone away) can not attack after entering the Swamp as it then gains the Slow condition, and has no action choices to make at that point.
Terrain in general is new-ish. You could have revealed an Enchantment to give a Creature Slow before, but I think that is discussed in other threads. Also, it is very clear at what point that the effect of the Slow from an Enchantment goes into effect (and is removed if the Creature gains Fast afterward during the same Activation). The main question in my mind was whether the Slow gained from the Swamp impacts a Creature after leaving... which it does not. We never had to deal with that before.
Thanks again, everyone, for helping to clarify!
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Just handing some stickers out for the pleasant conversation!