Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Mages => Topic started by: silverclawgrizzly on August 04, 2017, 09:07:15 AM
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With Arcane Duels fantastic spoiler videos as of late we can finally start discussing a topic I've personally been eager to get into since the development for Academy: Warlord finished up. With cards such as the new Formation spells and particularly the new equipment we've seen I fully expect to see the Warlords to become "the mages to beat" in competitive play. Lets look at what these new cards can mean for both mages shall we?
Warlords can count as soldiers and their battle orders are free actions:
Might as well kick off the big reveal. While carrying the Ivarium Halberd a Warlord benefits from his own Battle Orders and from Formation Spells. That means an Anvil Throne can become Fast, get Piercing +2 on his attack spells, or just gain an extra +1 Armor and Tough -2. Bear in mind he's already Tough -2 so that's going to stack making it very difficult to apply conditions. Is he going to get a Colossus Belt and make it nearly impossible? What about wearing Chitin Armor so you're just not going to Corrode him? Oh you got a lucky roll on the effect dice? Thankfully I have these nice new pants to make you re-roll that crap! If he's wearing the Strategist's Helm he can get that quick burst of speed from Fast WHENEVER he wants it without having to use any action economy up. Oh and so will all his creatures so Goblins can frenzy like zombies now except cheaper and without costing a full action to apply. If he's not using the Halberd he might actually get the Horn of Gothos to apply it to every friend he's got in the arena.
For the Bloodwave he's going to benefit more from the Formations as they're going to stack his already formidable fighting ability. Press the Attack means he's swinging 6 dice while he's holding that halberd AND he can re-roll it. This re-roll of course being in addition to any he gets from putting a cheap Level 1 Enchantment called Akiro's Favor in his book, and frankly you've no excuse NOT to put that in every single War book you're going to make and half the non-War ones too. He's going to get beefier and meaner in the hitting people department. He'll also benefit from getting +1 range on his rocks he's throwing and if he's on a Hill and/or Hawkeye he's pretty much going to terrify people. The ability to make everything hit harder with Charge +1 means he's going to likely favor surging in fast even more so and he'll do well with creatures like Torgo and Izimbilla backing him up. Lets not forget his creatures like Izimbilla or the ole Orc Butchers are going to be using Promotion and being that much scarier and that'll stack with Vet Tokens making them super creatures. Don't forget he's also going to be able to make his guards stronger with +1 Melee and +1 Armor whenever he feels like it so the Dwarven Panzerguarde is really going to be something you might think twice about hitting now.
I wanted to go ahead and get this topic started, there will be more reveals that'll add to some of my points but my hype trains going pretty hard right now.
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Yes,Yes,Yes!!!
This set will help the warlord be on another level of awesomeness. I am pumped about this set because it adds a lot to several other mages and helps the warlord utilize his abilities even more. Formations and warlords equipment will set them apart from the paladin. Formations alone is enough for me switch to playing warlord more often and possibly being my new favorite of all the mages.
I'm pumped as well for the release of this set!
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Ugh. There's some extreme power in this set. Gear up is probably worth the price of admission by itself. I STILL dont and wont play warlords, but this set is certainly going to make them a hell of a lot harder to kill! Some good things that will work for any mages, but damn. No more complaining about warlords being crappy.
Now when does the priest get his ridiculously awesome equipment that makes him super viable? Hmm?
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The Warlords are both legit threats to everyone now. I'd better not hear a single complaint after Warlords start taking major tournaments. I'm honestly glad it's not Gen Con legal as nobody will have had time to prepare.
Priest is already viable but that's a debate for another thread(there's like 50 of em.)
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stirring the controversy, i still am of the opinion that the orc is viable before this academy set.
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I admit that there are a ton of new cards that seem to be ... very very cost efficient. And efficiency is key, if you invest x mana, get value out of it and then your opponent has to invest x+y mana, to get rid of it (perfect example is ghoul rot or mage bane) it is a net win.
And I see a lot of new potentially net-win cards on the warlords side.
Since I am no playtester I never played with the new lvl 1 goblins before, but they seem to be so strong for their mana cost and with all those new, cheap buffs it appears to me that the warlord might finally become a tier2 mage.
Your optimism that he suddenly gets a positive win ration against druid/necro/priestess is premature imho but I think it's unquestionable that these new cards are a huge boost for him.
Tier 1 mages (above average):
Druid, Necro, Priestess
Tier 2 mages (average):
All who are not Tier1 or Tier3
Tier 3 mages (below average):
Siren, Bloodwave Warlord
I know, Mage Wars player do never agree on those "rankings" but I think it is common knowledge that the Bloodwave Warlord was considered (by most) to be on of the weakest mages. So some efficient cards certainly do not offset the balance right away because he needed this. To become viable.
The strongest cards from this new expansion so far:
1. Elven Warrior
(https://i.gyazo.com/53f33531ea00aa58f82d04f9fedc397a.png)
If you compare him to other lvl 1 creatures, there are plenty of "equally" efficient creatures.
Mana Worm (6life/1armor/2dice + mana drain) for 5 mana
Acolyte of the Bog Queen (7life/2dice + "healing") for 5 mana
Skeletal Minion (6life/3dice) for 5 mana
Asyrian Cleric (6life/1armor/2dice + healing) for 5 mana
Wychwood Hound (7life/2dice + 1amor/1dice if another of them is present in the same zone) for 5 mana
And so on, and so forth. So at first glance his stats are nothing special. Buuut against other creature decks he excels if played by a Bloodwave Warlord because he can get veteran tokens and secondly those cheap formation buffs might really do something. Add the helmet for a "free" charge +1 every turn and they are at 4 dice, piercing 1. Not bad for a 5 mana trash creature.
Although, for 3 mana more you could get a butcher.. And he has 4 life and "1" dice more (technically 2 but you know).. I still think the goblin is more efficient, but we will probably see a mix of both? Because the Warlord only has 9 channeling, he's probably play with barracks + at least 1 outpost, so it's 11. And using 8 of those 11 mana every turn for a butcher probably is too much because you can't properly use your other 2 actions. But well, I need to play myself to say for sure.
2. Press the attack
(https://i.gyazo.com/54ddebe825f5449ab8fa9d4fc296e7a8.png)
Why only on #2 you ask? You are right, Press the Attack would be good without the Elven Soldier but Elven Soldier wouldn't be good without Press the Attack. Still, I think a strong, cheap lvl 1 creature is more valuable in general than a good buff. But this buff right here is wonderful. In most cases only costing 2 mana (because of the Ring of Commands) you basically get value out of this card even if you only use it by 1 creature.
Bear Strength costs 4-5 mana and gives you +2 meele. This card costs 2-3 mana and gives you meele +1. And the opportunity to roll all attack dice again for 2/1 mana. Soo... it is already decent enough if there is only 1 soldier in the zone - but honestly - how often is that going to happen in a swarm deck?
This card definitely is a key card for anyone who attempts to build a swarm Warlord.
And you can use it with the Paladin and a army of "Knights of Westlock" as well.. and they have 6 dice which they can reroll then... And since the holy school lacks regular power buffs in school like Bear Strength, this is a perfect card for such a build as well. Especially because paying 2 mana to reroll a 6 dice attack is much more attractive than rerolling 3-4 dice.
And probably the best part is, that with the new Warlord weapon the mage himself can use the effect to reroll his dice and gets an additional attack die as well. That's deadly efficient as well..
To sum it up, this card has many implications and is useful in a variety of situations and additionally is a very cost efficient card, certainly one of the best new cards!
3. Ivarium Halberd
(https://i.gyazo.com/d6d38b17b3629c526532f5ea526b94d5.png)
Doesn't look like much at first glance. But again, it is another one of those highly mana efficient new cards. Compare it to the last 2 released weapons (the Trident and the Paladin sword) and the first thing you recognize is that it is sooo much cheaper! Far cheaper but looking at the powerlevel it is as good as those weapons who cost 4-5 more mana! The Sword of Radiance costs 8 mana and has 4 dice (without piercing) but it has some other stuff (ethereal and +2 vs. non living) and you can daze/burn etc pp. The Trident also costs 8 mana, has 1 piercing more and Push on 5+ (and a theoretical ranged attack, ok..)
Still, my point is, that this card is super mana efficient if you consider wearing the helmet (+1 charge) and have a Press the Attack revealed in the zone. Suddenly you already have 7!! dice with piercing 1. (4+1[pta]+1[BO/charge]+1[ability]). And for 2 mana you can reroll those dice.
It's best compared to Vorpal Blade which I consider to be the most efficient weapon at the moment. But this weapon is - in the right setup - even stronger/more efficient.
Okay, now the drawback - the reason why it is so comparatively cheap - it's a double handed weapon.
Pretty big disadvantage (no Elemental Wand to throw a stone every turn) but I think this weapon suits the Warlord better anyway. He was designed to fight in the front lines (meele +1 inherently and 36 life..) and it was strange to have this Warlord equipped with a Mage Wand in the one hand and an Elemental Wand in the other. That just never really fit. So I think this card is more balanced than the other 2 but still a strong card because it fits the theme perfectly.
4. Gear Up
(https://i.gyazo.com/64524b1f0a9e2cf5bfc698d14a547682.png)
This card is another thematically good card and I think a very important one as well for the "way to play" the new Warlord. Because you just cannot afford to play the barracks and a Battleforge. It slows you down, you need to press the attack and not stand in the corner, starting to mediate to get the mana for all your spawnpoints (you see what I did there? :p).
All those new stuff.. the helmet, the weapon and the Breeches want to be equipped but you only need it once the fight actually starts.
So it really makes a difference when you have to cast this equipment. If you have to cast equipment right from the start, you severely limit your options because it drains a lot of mana (BF [8] + 1-3 mana additionally every turn). In the best case you get your creatures out at fast as possible and the moment you have enough you sprint into meele and then you equip yourself, that way you have used your mana more efficient since the alternative would be that you had your equipment from the start but 1-3 creatures wouldn't be on the battlefield yet or they would but not ready to fight yet. I hope I could express why this card is so good for the swarm Warlord.
5. Strategist's Helm
(https://i.gyazo.com/aedfdf1b7338721ece5fef48c27611d4.png)
Well. I think this card is pretty strong and might make a ranged-build finally viable. I wonder if you can use Battle Orders twice in the same zone and turn? Once from Gurmash and once from the Warlord himself? Should be possible.. And if it is, that might be another strategy, maybe playing with Gurmash instead of barracks..? Or maybe with both? Though, both might be too slow..? Well, it's an interesting card which might allow for developing whole new strategies.
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Just want to point out that Formations are Warlord only. Paladin cannot use them.
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Oh, I mixed up Warmage and Warlord in my head. Thx for clarification.
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You mentioned the new level 1 goblin. To the best of my knowledge we haven't shown them yet.
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You mentioned the new level 1 goblin. To the best of my knowledge we haven't shown them yet.
I'm talking about the Elven Soldier. Just realized he is not a goblin, makes sense, thinking about the name ^^
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There's a lot of "giving fans what they want" in this set.
If one were to list most of the Warlord ability wish list items, it might go something like this:
- 10 channeling (or equivalent)
- Battle Orders is a free action rather than QC spell
- Warlord is a "soldier" (or at least benefits from his own Battle Orders)/li]
Now, on any turn, including turn 1, your Warlord could cast:
- Gear Up (2)
-- new cloak (3)
-- new helmet (2)
-- new halberd (4)
That's 11 mana and 1 QC to get all 3 effects listed above, plus effectively a Wolf Fury (e.g. The new weapon is 4 dice Piercing +1, for 4 mana and QC). So this costs you net 7 mana for abilities that one might argue should have been on the ability card to begin with. That's not terrible... but this also costs you 4 equipment slots and excludes the use of any wand (incl Helm of Command), Horn of Gothos, the equipment discount hammer, etc.
It's not bad... just pointing out it comes at a cost in terms of mana and equipment opportunity.
Hmmm. On a turn 1 without initiative, how about QC Gear Up with equipment listed above, then give yourself the Fast Battle Order as a free action with mana discount (0), then double-move to near-centre and put on Champion's Gauntlets (2). Next round, you have initiative and are likely in striking range with 4 equipment on and 15 mana to work with. And even if your opponent stayed put round 1, an Anvil Throne Warlord can always give his ranged attacks Piercing +2 (free) and Hurl Meteorite, plus final QC a Lesser Teleport to ensure you're in striking distance to start turn 3. ... Although you probably wouldn't have enough mana as you'd prefer to put some runes into those equipment... maybe play a Harshforge Plate and/or Armor Ward turn 2 to protect your investments.
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Playing gear up in the first round is a terrible idea as I explained above :p
Why would you do that? Better increase your mana channeling or try to generate an action advantage.
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Ok let's refrain from criticizing each other's strategies. The reasons to Gear Up on turn 1 are fairly straight forward, to get the benefits immediately. If YOU don't want to please understand not everyone is bound to agree. :)
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One thing I'm wanting to do, obviously not on Turn 1 is to combo gear up with a dwarves runes. You could get 5 armor in one turn if you're willing to pay for it.
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Well, equipping both rings + cloak might even be decent, when I think about it since that is comparable to getting additional channeling. But why would you equip a weapon and the helmet in t1? Just curious about the strategy behind it.
@silver: Criticizing is such a negative word. Discussing fits better and this thread is especially made for discussions about the new cards, isn't it?
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Tbh, I already found the Anvil Throne warlord incredibly strong and now he's even better. Denying he will be really good after this expansion comes out seems ridiculous to me.
I never played bloodwave, but I'm taking Zot's word for it that he wasn't as bad as so many people thought he was.
I will post a card analysis later today or tomorrow.
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I admit that there are a ton of new cards that seem to be ... very very cost efficient. And efficiency is key, if you invest x mana, get value out of it and then your opponent has to invest x+y mana, to get rid of it (perfect example is ghoul rot or mage bane) it is a net win.
And I see a lot of new potentially net-win cards on the warlords side.
Since I am no playtester I never played with the new lvl 1 goblins before, but they seem to be so strong for their mana cost and with all those new, cheap buffs it appears to me that the warlord might finally become a tier2 mage.
Your optimism that he suddenly gets a positive win ration against druid/necro/priestess is premature imho but I think it's unquestionable that these new cards are a huge boost for him.
Tier 1 mages (above average):
Druid, Necro, Priestess
Tier 2 mages (average):
All who are not Tier1 or Tier3
Tier 3 mages (below average):
Siren, Bloodwave Warlord
I know, Mage Wars player do never agree on those "rankings" but I think it is common knowledge that the Bloodwave Warlord was considered (by most) to be on of the weakest mages. So some efficient cards certainly do not offset the balance right away because he needed this. To become viable.
The strongest cards from this new expansion so far:
1. Elven Warrior
(https://i.gyazo.com/53f33531ea00aa58f82d04f9fedc397a.png)
If you compare him to other lvl 1 creatures, there are plenty of "equally" efficient creatures.
Mana Worm (6life/1armor/2dice + mana drain) for 5 mana
Acolyte of the Bog Queen (7life/2dice + "healing") for 5 mana
Skeletal Minion (6life/3dice) for 5 mana
Asyrian Cleric (6life/1armor/2dice + healing) for 5 mana
Wychwood Hound (7life/2dice + 1amor/1dice if another of them is present in the same zone) for 5 mana
And so on, and so forth. So at first glance his stats are nothing special. Buuut against other creature decks he excels if played by a Bloodwave Warlord because he can get veteran tokens and secondly those cheap formation buffs might really do something. Add the helmet for a "free" charge +1 every turn and they are at 4 dice, piercing 1. Not bad for a 5 mana trash creature.
Although, for 3 mana more you could get a butcher.. And he has 4 life and "1" dice more (technically 2 but you know).. I still think the goblin is more efficient, but we will probably see a mix of both? Because the Warlord only has 9 channeling, he's probably play with barracks + at least 1 outpost, so it's 11. And using 8 of those 11 mana every turn for a butcher probably is too much because you can't properly use your other 2 actions. But well, I need to play myself to say for sure.
2. Press the attack
(https://i.gyazo.com/54ddebe825f5449ab8fa9d4fc296e7a8.png)
Why only on #2 you ask? You are right, Press the Attack would be good without the Elven Soldier but Elven Soldier wouldn't be good without Press the Attack. Still, I think a strong, cheap lvl 1 creature is more valuable in general than a good buff. But this buff right here is wonderful. In most cases only costing 2 mana (because of the Ring of Commands) you basically get value out of this card even if you only use it by 1 creature.
Bear Strength costs 4-5 mana and gives you +2 meele. This card costs 2-3 mana and gives you meele +1. And the opportunity to roll all attack dice again for 2/1 mana. Soo... it is already decent enough if there is only 1 soldier in the zone - but honestly - how often is that going to happen in a swarm deck?
This card definitely is a key card for anyone who attempts to build a swarm Warlord.
And you can use it with the Paladin and a army of "Knights of Westlock" as well.. and they have 6 dice which they can reroll then... And since the holy school lacks regular power buffs in school like Bear Strength, this is a perfect card for such a build as well. Especially because paying 2 mana to reroll a 6 dice attack is much more attractive than rerolling 3-4 dice.
And probably the best part is, that with the new Warlord weapon the mage himself can use the effect to reroll his dice and gets an additional attack die as well. That's deadly efficient as well..
To sum it up, this card has many implications and is useful in a variety of situations and additionally is a very cost efficient card, certainly one of the best new cards!
3. Ivarium Halberd
(https://i.gyazo.com/d6d38b17b3629c526532f5ea526b94d5.png)
Doesn't look like much at first glance. But again, it is another one of those highly mana efficient new cards. Compare it to the last 2 released weapons (the Trident and the Paladin sword) and the first thing you recognize is that it is sooo much cheaper! Far cheaper but looking at the powerlevel it is as good as those weapons who cost 4-5 more mana! The Sword of Radiance costs 8 mana and has 4 dice (without piercing) but it has some other stuff (ethereal and +2 vs. non living) and you can daze/burn etc pp. The Trident also costs 8 mana, has 1 piercing more and Push on 5+ (and a theoretical ranged attack, ok..)
Still, my point is, that this card is super mana efficient if you consider wearing the helmet (+1 charge) and have a Press the Attack revealed in the zone. Suddenly you already have 7!! dice with piercing 1. (4+1[pta]+1[BO/charge]+1[ability]). And for 2 mana you can reroll those dice.
It's best compared to Vorpal Blade which I consider to be the most efficient weapon at the moment. But this weapon is - in the right setup - even stronger/more efficient.
Okay, now the drawback - the reason why it is so comparatively cheap - it's a double handed weapon.
Pretty big disadvantage (no Elemental Wand to throw a stone every turn) but I think this weapon suits the Warlord better anyway. He was designed to fight in the front lines (meele +1 inherently and 36 life..) and it was strange to have this Warlord equipped with a Mage Wand in the one hand and an Elemental Wand in the other. That just never really fit. So I think this card is more balanced than the other 2 but still a strong card because it fits the theme perfectly.
4. Gear Up
(https://i.gyazo.com/64524b1f0a9e2cf5bfc698d14a547682.png)
This card is another thematically good card and I think a very important one as well for the "way to play" the new Warlord. Because you just cannot afford to play the barracks and a Battleforge. It slows you down, you need to press the attack and not stand in the corner, starting to mediate to get the mana for all your spawnpoints (you see what I did there? :p).
All those new stuff.. the helmet, the weapon and the Breeches want to be equipped but you only need it once the fight actually starts.
So it really makes a difference when you have to cast this equipment. If you have to cast equipment right from the start, you severely limit your options because it drains a lot of mana (BF [8] + 1-3 mana additionally every turn). In the best case you get your creatures out at fast as possible and the moment you have enough you sprint into meele and then you equip yourself, that way you have used your mana more efficient since the alternative would be that you had your equipment from the start but 1-3 creatures wouldn't be on the battlefield yet or they would but not ready to fight yet. I hope I could express why this card is so good for the swarm Warlord.
5. Strategist's Helm
(https://i.gyazo.com/aedfdf1b7338721ece5fef48c27611d4.png)
Well. I think this card is pretty strong and might make a ranged-build finally viable. I wonder if you can use Battle Orders twice in the same zone and turn? Once from Gurmash and once from the Warlord himself? Should be possible.. And if it is, that might be another strategy, maybe playing with Gurmash instead of barracks..? Or maybe with both? Though, both might be too slow..? Well, it's an interesting card which might allow for developing whole new strategies.
Uh press the attack is warlord only.
Did you forget the falcon as being on of the level one creatures?
I also think the hallbard has some serious juice. You didn't seem to talk at all about the abilities it has.
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Enti I'll completely agree discussion is most welcome, let's all be careful with our word use however...you too Red though I'm glad to see you back.
I honestly do believe the Anvil Throne is capable of taking on anyone after this. I refuse to use the tier system of ranking but you'll see him win some popular events at least.
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Enti I'll completely agree discussion is most welcome, let's all be careful with our word use however...you too Red though I'm glad to see you back.
I honestly do believe the Anvil Throne is capable of taking on anyone after this. I refuse to use the tier system of ranking but you'll see him win some popular events at least.
I agree. Anvil Throne was already an extremely good mage. Now he's even better.
I'm glad to see the warlords getting love. The arcane restriction always really hurt them, but cards like the harshforge golem should help that A LOT. I also personally really like the new troll.
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The new cards are far better / more fitting for the Bloodwave Warlord. Not convinced that the Anvil Throne is really getting a (significant) boost. I'd still prefer to play him with BF and 2 wands and protecting the wands with the gloves and without the barracks. The Bloodwave on the other hand... Excited to test it.
But the FM isn't even available on OCTGN yet, so we probably have to wait quite a bit... Still, looking forward to it! :)
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Well the main obvious advantage the dwarf is getting is Fast whenever he wants it. While not discounting that, the +1 Armor and Tough - 2 he can pick up as well. That's not negligible at all.
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Well the main obvious advantage the dwarf is getting is Fast whenever he wants it. While not discounting that, the +1 Armor and Tough - 2 he can pick up as well. That's not negligible at all.
My thoughts exactly Grizz.
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One thing I've been wanting to try is my "Don't Care Warlord" build. Basically I put on Chitin Armor with the protection rune along with the new pants and some leather boots. I now have 5 armor. Putting on the helm, halberd, and Veteran Belt I am very unlikely to suffer much corrosion when an Acid Ball would need a 6- 8 twice. Yes it'll take build up and I'll need a creature or two before I completely get dressed but there are....other benefits yet to be revealed that synergize with the build up.
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Well, equipping both rings + cloak might even be decent, when I think about it since that is comparable to getting additional channeling. But why would you equip a weapon and the helmet in t1? Just curious about the strategy behind it.
@silver: Criticizing is such a negative word. Discussing fits better and this thread is especially made for discussions about the new cards, isn't it?
For free Fast. My 10 second thought was that a rush mage would love to end round 1 with 4 items equipped and positioned at NC starting round 2 with initiative and 15 mana, again with the option of free Fast. I'm 100% sure there are at least 15 better uses of Gear Up. This was simply something that came to mind when I saw the video that is predictable (eg doesn't depend on what your opponent does or what creatures are out or face-down enchantments to worry about, etc) and can't be countered (because it's at the end of round 1). Double-move + Armor Ward might be a better opening, saving Gear Up for a round 2 engagement with more mana = more options = more optimal equipment.
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Enti I'll completely agree discussion is most welcome, let's all be careful with our word use however...you too Red though I'm glad to see you back.
I honestly do believe the Anvil Throne is capable of taking on anyone after this. I refuse to use the tier system of ranking but you'll see him win some popular events at least.
Using the tier system of ranking to describe matchups for specific kinds of spellbooks *might* make sense. But generalizing it to entire mage classes is just plain wrong because of the spellpoint system. As I have explained elsewhere on these forums, the presence of a spell point system shunts most imbalances from gameplay to deck design. That's why before his errata the wizard didn't seem conventionaly OP even as he massively overcentralized the metagame.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320A using Tapatalk
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I think the tier system makes sense and secondly I think the actual ranking inside the system is also correct.
It's not about individual matchups, that would make is far too .... murky?
It's about their overall powerlevel. And Necro, Druid and Priestess are - generally speaking - stronger than the other mages. Generally. In general.
Same with Siren and Bloodwave Warlord. They are - overall speaking - weaker than the other mages.
That does not mean that Tier2 Mages don't have a chance against Tier1 - far from it. It just means that Tier1 is generally favored if playing against a lower tier mage.
Back to the Warlord: I think the new changes catapulted him into Tier2. Now only the Siren is lacking behind. But I guess we have to wait and see, if the warlord really performs as expected.
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i think the bw warlord is a strong mage. not top shelf, but certainly not the bottom as you suggest. the new stuff definitely improves him too. i am still considering playing bw warlord for gen con.
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i think the bw warlord is a strong mage. not top shelf, but certainly not the bottom as you suggest. the new stuff definitely improves him too. i am still considering playing bw warlord for gen con.
I agree with zot.
The Bloodwave really isn't that bad. People smash on the priest all the time. The priest is really good. Just like the Bloodwave.
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i think the bw warlord is a strong mage. not top shelf, but certainly not the bottom as you suggest.
Seriously. What can I do to convince you, that BW Warlord is the weakest mage (together with Siren)?
I am not even sure, if the Warlord CAN win at all against druid/necro/priestess, even with enormous luck and constantly rolling above average.
Well, I am online on OCTGN and if I lose 1 out of 5 matches with tier1 against tier3 I might reconsider my position. But honestly, I don't see it happening. The tier1 advantage really exists, it's not something I made up to be edgy in a forum.
/edit: Keejchen, Powlich, Jack.. if you read this.. you know what to do (if you don't agree with my assessment :p)
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i think druid and priestess are both tier two in a timed event.
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Still way stronger than BW Warlord ;D
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So if you take GenCon as the End/Beginning of a year I would say that going into this year that Forcemaster and Priest are the weakest mages.
This next year with FM and Warlord academy to add to the collection, and maybe others, Warlord is getting a significant boost in viability. Forcemaster? Not so much.
Forcemaster is and always will be a mage style that has not been supported in a long time. Actions win games and the forcemaster is a tough mage to play, I would say the hardest. She's "weak" because of the lack of options that she can use to stay competitive and when you bring the game out of the vacuum of theory craft into a setting where one book must run the gambit on a majority different play styles, her book just cannot cut it.
No other mage is in such a position and that's why she is the bottom of the pool.
Lets also remember that terms such as "weak" and "low tier" are not death sentences, these mages can win; They just have to work harder than the rest.
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agreed.
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i think the bw warlord is a strong mage. not top shelf, but certainly not the bottom as you suggest.
Seriously. What can I do to convince you, that BW Warlord is the weakest mage (together with Siren)?
I am not even sure, if the Warlord CAN win at all against druid/necro/priestess, even with enormous luck and constantly rolling above average.
Well, I am online on OCTGN and if I lose 1 out of 5 matches with tier1 against tier3 I might reconsider my position. But honestly, I don't see it happening. The tier1 advantage really exists, it's not something I made up to be edgy in a forum.
/edit: Keejchen, Powlich, Jack.. if you read this.. you know what to do (if you don't agree with my assessment :p)
You don't convince us, that's the thing. You can argue all you want online but I've seen enough matches in person(and remember I judge tournaments for Arcane Wonders as a part time job) to know that no mage is truly inferior and no mage is superior.
We're arguing opinions here, that's all. Your opinion is your own and that's worthy of respect, but so are others. Respect.
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agreed. all mostly opinion based on folks meta exposure.
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but I've seen enough matches in person(and remember I judge tournaments for Arcane Wonders as a part time job) to know that no mage is truly inferior and no mage is superior.
What must happen for you to admit/realize that not all mages are equal?
Would you only be convinced if you see 1 specific mage losing every single time? Even if the best player in the world plays against a total newby? Would only that suffice?
Because it is natural for you to see a lot of games in which BW Warlord wins. Actually the more games you judge, the more often/regular you will see Warlords on the winning side. But does that have any, ANY, relevance to what we are talking about?
Because your previous poster phrased it beautifully:
Lets also remember that terms such as "weak" and "low tier" are not death sentences, these mages can win; They just have to work harder than the rest.
And I am not sure why you think that real games are more meaningful than online games. Were you referring to the time limit?
In the end I just want to explicitly confirm that it is not disrespectful in any way if 2 people are arguing, right? And that I don't disrespect you as a person because I don't share your view of "everything is perfectly balanced and there are no tangible differences between the Mage's powerlevel".
(I just want to check, because I have the nagging feeling that you might feel personally insulted that I want you to convince you from my point of view)
Not that I like to repeat myself, but somehow this statement gets ignored:
We could even do a "live test" in the forum, collecting some data on this subject.
Could look for example like that:
Self-evaluation from both players before the game: They need to assign a number to their experience (from 1-10)
And then we wait for a few games to happen. If the so called tier1 Mages are not inherently favored, it should sooner or later be something like 50/50 when it comes to win/loss ratio between roughly the same skilled opponents. But I think it'd be more to 75%, 3 out of 4.. in favor of the tier1 mages. And literally 0% that someone who has less experience wins against another player with more experience who also plays the stronger mage. (Well, 'stronger mage' - in my eyes)
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i do agree that not all mages are equal. we just differ on which mages are strongest, weakest, and the others in the middle. and the list could change based on time limits. and i was stirring the pot just a bit because i know most folks disagree with me about the bw warlord. and that is ok.
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I'm not trying to be rude but I've already told you Enti, you're not convincing anyone of your view point. Get that straight. IT. IS. NOT. HAPPENING. Any and all attempts will be ignored as someone who's not even listening, thus why should I listen to you?
I get that you have a view point. I even understand you're not alone in this view point. I do not share it and there isn't a way you'll convince me otherwise.
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Hey guys I think we are going in circles. Can we stay on topic. That is awesome new Warlord stuff!
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Agreed Coshade.
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free battle orders is awesome.
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Am i the only one concerned that a couple of these cards are way more powerful in arena than the counterparts that already exist here? I mean I'm not crying out anything but this cam at least pull the conversation back into focus.
I know that they are designed for both games but some of these effects are freaking ridiculous when you scale them up. Gear up is insanely powerful and does something that currently no other cards do, and does it on demand. The options are nearly endless as well. The halberd wouldn't worry me quite so much but it's costed for academy. It's crazy cheap for what it does. There's no doubt that a new play style is emerging for the warlords wth a very warlord feel. But damn, its got me a bit concerned at what I'm gonna see come outa this set for arena specifically.
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Am i the only one concerned that a couple of these cards are way more powerful in arena than the counterparts that already exist here? I mean I'm not crying out anything but this cam at least pull the conversation back into focus.
I know that they are designed for both games but some of these effects are freaking ridiculous when you scale them up. Gear up is insanely powerful and does something that currently no other cards do, and does it on demand. The options are nearly endless as well. The halberd wouldn't worry me quite so much but it's costed for academy. It's crazy cheap for what it does. There's no doubt that a new play style is emerging for the warlords wth a very warlord feel. But damn, its got me a bit concerned at what I'm gonna see come outa this set for arena specifically.
This was a very real concern during the entire development life of Gear Up, which was a very long time. Gear Up first hit playtesting before the Battle Fury / Shalla / Temple errata years ago.
So I cannot express enough about the degree, care, and level of testing that this card has undergone and the various iterations that came and went to get exactly what was desired from a card of this power. It's a very good card! A book defining card that can even turn the tide of a game. One thing this card shows is that there are not many cards that have that kind of potential.
There are only a few cards in Mage Wars that I personally hold to the "top tier" of power cards, Mordok's Obelisk being my personal choice as "most powerful card in Mage Wars"; gear up is a close second. I remember playing my newly built Crown Warlock book vs Zot's Disciple of Radiance book at last years GenCon. I let him build up to some 7 or 8 creatures and dropped a Orb that would let me win the game.
This set has that kind of potential but its not as obvious and wont necessarily win games the same way as the orb. Most importantly in my eyes is the ability for the warlord to truly swarm with mid cost creatures as early as turn one; extremely fun way to play and Academy Warlord, so far, is the most important Academy expansion to come out.
Like all good new cards, this set forces a change in current books and book building strategy; which is overall a very healthy thing for the game.
Long Story longer, Your concerns have been voiced long before you knew that you had them :P and great care has been taken to insure that Mage Wars remains a fun game to play without adding silly "Timmy" cards unnecessarily.
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indeed, the obelisk ruined that game. it was a mid range book summoning a bunch of asyran clerics who were to help heal the priestess as she beat on stuff. the mana drain proved too much for her.
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Im a bit sad to see gear up being mage cast.
I would have loved for Gurmash being able to cast this as it would provide a lot more new openings for at least the BW warlord.
Still a very nice and refreshing card.
The new helm (love the artwork) together with gear up takes ring of command from horrible to a very good , but not required choice. I like that.
Regarding the formations I'm excited to see them in Play.
I'm not yet convinced that they as strong as other perceive them. (For arena.)
But very interesting expansion for arena so far.
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I completely understand the concern about Gear Up. It is flippin insane. Lol imagine the fun if an opponent slipped a Nullify on you and you tried Gear Up thinking it was just a curse, it'd be an instant table flip ;D As Kharhaz said the play test for Gear Up was intense and I can remember several different arguments being made for it. I'm actually delighted how it eventually came out.
There's a few other cards hinted at already such as the new goblin. Listen to the spoiler video and you get the gist of it: You can cast more than one with a single action. That's obviously going to be a new strategy right there as you can swarm ridiculously fast.
One thing to remember about formations is they're all dirt cheap to cast and cantrips. So there isn't a single reason not to have one out at any given time if you have even one buddy.
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Am I the only one whom Gear Up reminds of this: https://youtu.be/KbSp-bFxVwc (https://youtu.be/KbSp-bFxVwc)?
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Yes you were - until now.