Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Mages => Topic started by: rant on June 12, 2017, 06:43:41 PM
-
I'm looking at my book, which has be refined with new expansions over the last four years, and 29 out of the 60 spells are out of school.
Dark is a school that is flush with spells, but have they been relevant for the Arraxian Crown? Is the Necro hurting the AXC Warlock?
I have my assumptions and bias, obviously. But I'm curious to hear what others think.
-
AX Crown has been unplayable since DvN
-
AX Crown has been unplayable since DvN
Oh man. This was the response I feared the most. I have no more words.
-
i disagree with biblo. i feel it is a top tier mage still.
-
I also disagree with Biblofilter and believe the Araxian can still win tournaments.
-
I played with an Ax Crown twice in the last tournament and won both my matches. What is it in particular you find about him unplayable?
-
no way to remove enchants, while remove curse exists. Big dice attack spells like luminous blast from holy. Eye for an eye without an answer. The new quick cast force master spells.
AX warlocks have the worst spawnpoint and familiars. DOTS are garbage against heals. Deathlink ( which I love) cost too much and only works against living and if the warlock has damage. The newer cards force the mage to either take damage or life loss.
such a shame for a core mage.
-
so you must make changes to your book. as well as how you play it. stack fewer enchants, kill healing, run cloak to get light minus. there are a myriad ways to get around these obstacles.
-
so you must make changes to your book. as well as how you play it. stack fewer enchants, kill healing, run cloak to get light minus. there are a myriad ways to get around these obstacles.
You are obviously not an AX main
-
i actually have a decent ax.warlock. clearly very different from yours.
-
fair enoug, but since remove curse, it makes the AX worthless.
-
looks like we will have to agree to disagree. your mind is made up and there is no way to have you see it any different.
-
playtester vs player is how I see it. In time (might be a long time) it will balance itself out.
-
not sure what you mean by pt vs plyr. a matter of experience? there are great players who are not testers, and there are some testers who are not as experienced as players, but are good at card evaluation for balance or ideas.
everyone builds books differently. that is what makes the game so interesting. my approach to book build is to try to forecast scenarios and cards i may face and build accordingly. rinse and repeat. i have spread books out and agonize over how to fit in some cards that did not go in initially. the 120 pts is frustratingly awesome.
-
Lol I'm A LOT better player than I am play tester.
-
I build my book the same way. you may have missed my first post. Let me make this clear:
THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH IN SCHOOL SPELLS TO MAKE THE AX WARLOCK COMPETITIVE.
I'm sorry if that was unclear. MY Warlock is good but it relies on too many out of school spells. I think this is a symptom of the necro.
the reason why I say it's a PT problem is because I don't see a PT maining AX. BUT, I do see that the mages that PT main seem to have an answer to everything.
-
I'll take you up on that offer Rant. I'll take your tickets. As Gen Con judge I have use of a free spot in both the practice session and the tournament itself.
No I'm not competing(you can relax folks) but I always have people interested in participating who are unsure about the cost.
-
i did miss that part for the post. i play warlord and wizard as my favorites. and the original warlord at that. people dog that one the most too. doesnt matter to me, i still like it.
-
Dude Bloodwave is legit. Speaking of play tester view points I can say this without spoilers: The days of bad mouthing the orc warlord are over come Academy: Warlord. If people think the spoilers for Academy: Force Master are nice, they haven't seen jack yet. Don't believe me just watch 8)
-
I'll take you up on that offer Rant. I'll take your tickets. As Gen Con judge I have use of a free spot in both the practice session and the tournament itself.
No I'm not competing(you can relax folks) but I always have people interested in participating who are unsure about the cost.
all yours. I will see you personally griz
-
We can arrange dropping them off via PM if you like.
-
Bro, I'll be by the booth bright an early. Like I eluded to earlier, It was the main reason why I purchased gencon ticks.
Such a waste of a core mage. Now, when everyone buys the core, they know not to pick warlock.
-
I also disagree. Arraxian warlock is still pretty darn good. Why would he be any less competitive than the adramelech warlock? All his abilities are great, the dark school is huge and he is trained in the fire school too.
"I'm sorry if that was unclear. MY Warlock is good but it relies on too many out of school spells. I think this is a symptom of the necro.
It's true that PvS didn't give them as much as other mages but they have gained chant of rage (which is one of THE best cards PvS) altar of infernia, Bloodthirsty strike, curse item, and a few other cards. Warlocks don't even need dissolve anymore.
Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5HZnNQB1BI
-> Final stages of the ADMW tournament. Arraxian warlock beating a priestess. Making some awesome use out of curseweaving.
-
Warlocks don't even need dissolve anymore.
no to that, curse item alone doesnt work against mage wands and can still be dispeled, explode is costy
I still like playing the warlock and he is still pretty nice, but remove curse made it harder and Pillar of flame one of the current must have cards in my pov costs tripple
-
Im sorry if i offended some - and i may have overdone my statement a bit.
It usually generate a bit of discussion - which is great.
Ax Crown did really well in the ADMW Winter Special - but the point remains vs a Necro your not in good shape.
You might have 20% or more of your spellbook not working, on top of that if he/she runs fire protection its really uphill.
Ax Crown has amazing healing = Deathlock still good.
If you don´t play vs Necros then your all good :)
-
You could also run an Enchanter's wardstone and some arcane wards to protect some of your curses. The wardstone is much better than most people give it credit for. Also you need mind shields to protect your blood reaper from psychic spells such as chant of rage. Things like that. Also don't be so afraid of going out of school.
Also the warlock is very good at attacking things. If you're facing a necromancer don't agonize over not being able to put Ghoul rot or poisoned blood on him. Just attack him more and have your own Deathlock ready when you need it.
-
Well some good news!
I don´t think a single non-Warlock mage cast Dragonscale Hauberk in ADMW Winter Special.
There are lots of fire protection out there, but if Warlocks are no treat nobody are going to run it.
7+ dice, piercing 1 Firestreams might just be good enough.
Why not enter him in Gen-Con and lets see.
-
In General the Chitin armor seems to be the out-of-school-auto-include-chest-piece replacing Dragon Scale which should help both warlocks a bit.
Sersiryx is not bad.
I have no idea why there is so much hate on this guy. He has reasonable armor and reasonable HP. He can be guarded unlike flying familiars.
In the hands of the female warlock he even has a decent melee attack. (potentially 4 dice against something with marked).
He can benefit from ring discount unlike most other familiars.
He can guard for you when needed (not pest). Also he can hinder, which can be used to stop the enemy mage from escaping.
He is probably my favorite familiar.
AX warlock struggles vs necromancer and druid.
Vs necromancer you should consider not to make use of your Bloodreaper as you may be forced to put down Deathlock (or mby the necromancer does it).
Curse equipment, eye of baal, molochs torment, magebane and arcane corruption can give you alot of direct damage - even without ghoulrot.
Ignite is underrated for a nullify probe and ensuring that the curse you cast right after will go through. And its just 1 spellbook point.
(if your lucky it also adds to the direct damage).
Vs necromancer you gotta put pressure on him early. If you allow him to get 3 brutes out then your done.
Force him to armor up = less brutes out. Then swap to Curse equipments. Remember timing, so that when he lets equipment die then you have initiative and can QC fireball.
So makes sure you start to deal with him round 4 or 5 the latest.
Vs druid i dont have much advice. While in theory fire beats druid, the problem comes from the tight spellbook building the AX crown is under in order to be versatile and stand a chance vs multiple books.
I know everyone is saying AX beats druid with fire... but that's just not what i have found to be the case.
If he had points for 3 helions and LoF then druid would probably be an easy fight... but imo he is giving up too much vs other mages if he chooses to include that many fire creatures.
-
wardstones only pay off if you the oponent dispels something every other round at minimum else a mana crystal of him will just counter it already, I do run one still, but more for opportunity costs to mess with mana calculation etc .
Protecting with arcane ward is not that easy, purify, remove curse and purge magic target the mage, dispel and disperse the enchantment so they can always work against one. I still run it but its not straight forward.
The Warlock still has good amount of healing: bloodreaper, death link, regrowth (out of school), demonic link, vampiric,...
your tiny mask gives piercing on all attacks, combine with wolf fury and you already have a base attack of 5 dice pierce 2 for 7mana investment, fire attack spells also get that one piercing. If you buff your creatures with demonic link or demonic bloodlust (reaper is anyway thirsty) you never lose a sbp...
never go only explode/curse equipment, a single dissolve may be necessary to take care of something rather cheap right away.
dont be afraid cursing non-mage creatures, you get the spell back if no dispel....
for some: dont invest too many sbp in creatures
Mind shield with chant of rage could be interesting, but maybe nullify/dispel/seeking dispel is cooler as more flexibel for same sbp. or arcane ward. but sersiryx is pretty vulnerable to it :(
Deathlock is questionable as warlock with so much healing potential, i rarely use it
druid i think its a lot of cautious play and get use out of your fire attacks and curse the creatures, still though game
-
wardstones only pay off if you the oponent dispels something every other round at minimum else a mana crystal of him will just counter it already, I do run one still, but more for opportunity costs to mess with mana calculation etc.
Wards Stone is Alpha Omega in a curse based book.
You are basing your mana calculation on dispell. Vs. Destroy Magic and Purge you absolutely need these stones out.
The key is not to cast them too early.
-
wardstones only pay off if you the oponent dispels something every other round at minimum else a mana crystal of him will just counter it already, I do run one still, but more for opportunity costs to mess with mana calculation etc.
Wards Stone is Alpha Omega in a curse based book.
You are basing your mana calculation on dispell. Vs. Destroy Magic and Purge you absolutely need these stones out.
The key is not to cast them too early.
that's what I ment with I still run them, but its mainly you want to cast them when you can really mess with the plans of the oponent. It helps a lot on reading when a dispel/purge is possible if a wardstone is out, unless surprising decoys are popped and he didnt cast the wardstone yet as 12mana wouldnt be enough for purge+nullify trigger.
But I am not so sure about 2 wardstone in most cases, if he has sufficient dispels he can still do it, if full actions are not so valuable as it is a defensive mage the disperse/remove curse will just pay for the extra mana.
wardstones are cool and one is almost necessary, but more I am not so sure, 2sbp points could mean another poison blood and a mage bane instead. Simply depending if curse strat is about winning faster with dealing enough dmg, or dealing dmg over a longer time, by removing all possible ways to remove them.
-
But I am not so sure about 2 wardstone in most cases, if he has sufficient dispels he can still do it, if full actions are not so valuable as it is a defensive mage the disperse/remove curse will just pay for the extra mana.
wardstones are cool and one is almost necessary, but more I am not so sure, 2sbp points could mean another poison blood and a mage bane instead. Simply depending if curse strat is about winning faster with dealing enough dmg, or dealing dmg over a longer time, by removing all possible ways to remove them.
I tried running 1. And In my experience it is not enough. There will be games when the opponent sends some of his forces to destroy it, while he is saving or prepping for that purge/Remove curse and you need to replace it with 1 or 2 more in the other end of the arena.
I can't theorycraft much about this, its based on experience from played games.
The best way i can put it, is that its about efficiency and not running out of steam in mid game.
If you knew your opponents spellbook contained 3 dispells, then it would obviously not be worth casting as much as a single wardstone. But its the unknown we are up against.
The problem comes when he has mage wands and or dispell wands - potientally infinite removal if he has more magewands / dispells than you have dissolves.
-
Personally, I agree with essentially everything Mystery said.
I think chitin armor became popular since so many people run tons of acid balls which is a highly overused card imo.
-
But I am not so sure about 2 wardstone in most cases, if he has sufficient dispels he can still do it, if full actions are not so valuable as it is a defensive mage the disperse/remove curse will just pay for the extra mana.
wardstones are cool and one is almost necessary, but more I am not so sure, 2sbp points could mean another poison blood and a mage bane instead. Simply depending if curse strat is about winning faster with dealing enough dmg, or dealing dmg over a longer time, by removing all possible ways to remove them.
I tried running 1. And In my experience it is not enough. There will be games when the opponent sends some of his forces to destroy it, while he is saving or prepping for that purge/Remove curse and you need to replace it with 1 or 2 more in the other end of the arena.
I can't theorycraft much about this, its based on experience from played games.
The best way i can put it, is that its about efficiency and not running out of steam in mid game.
If you knew your opponents spellbook contained 3 dispells, then it would obviously not be worth casting as much as a single wardstone. But its the unknown we are up against.
The problem comes when he has mage wands and or dispell wands - potientally infinite removal if he has more magewands / dispells than you have dissolves.
yeah my experience I never needed more, moving back to cast one in another corner would make me to vulnerable to dispelwand or mage wand/dispel as I cant move and dissolve without them getting three uses out at min.
you need at least 3 dissolve/crumble/explode, as 2 mage wands can be possible and maybe you need an early dissolve for some other threat
-
But I am not so sure about 2 wardstone in most cases, if he has sufficient dispels he can still do it, if full actions are not so valuable as it is a defensive mage the disperse/remove curse will just pay for the extra mana.
wardstones are cool and one is almost necessary, but more I am not so sure, 2sbp points could mean another poison blood and a mage bane instead. Simply depending if curse strat is about winning faster with dealing enough dmg, or dealing dmg over a longer time, by removing all possible ways to remove them.
I tried running 1. And In my experience it is not enough. There will be games when the opponent sends some of his forces to destroy it, while he is saving or prepping for that purge/Remove curse and you need to replace it with 1 or 2 more in the other end of the arena.
I can't theorycraft much about this, its based on experience from played games.
The best way i can put it, is that its about efficiency and not running out of steam in mid game.
If you knew your opponents spellbook contained 3 dispells, then it would obviously not be worth casting as much as a single wardstone. But its the unknown we are up against.
The problem comes when he has mage wands and or dispell wands - potientally infinite removal if he has more magewands / dispells than you have dissolves.
yeah my experience I never needed more, moving back to cast one in another corner would make me to vulnerable to dispelwand or mage wand/dispel as I cant move and dissolve without them getting three uses out at min.
you need at least 3 dissolve/crumble/explode, as 2 mage wands can be possible and maybe you need an early dissolve for some other threat
Also agree with this point.
Personally, I try to have 3 dissolves, 1-2 rusts, 1 acid ball. More for a water mage.
Often I have a mage wand as well.
-
Alright... this thread is about AX crown being competitive or not.
I find that Ward Stones are a great support in making him competitive. You find that sufficient dissolves does the job.
Lets agree to disagree about how the AX Crown 'should' solves his 'problems'.
Main point is that he is still in the game.
I will add my last comments to why i like my approach of 'draining' the opponent of mana.
My control wizard uses 4 mage wands ( - used it in ADMW winther Tournament - and ill upload my books when this is wrapped up by Arcane Duels - ). So 3 dissolves is not enough. Also if your solution is to bring 4 instead, then your just screwed if 1 hits a nullify.
Casting a wand is already 5 mana - if you now need to pay 4 mana extra per item you wish to dispell it quickly becomes very mana intensive.
This leads me to the next... in the cases where i actually wish to spend 2 or more wardstones its vs books that are 'undoing'. This is something that needs to be recognized during the game. Usually these books have little to no threads out on the board.
If i am trying to undo their undoing (destroy wands) then i have found that i lose the game. Basically i'm not gaining any momentum in destroying a wand that their forge will deploy again next round again. Only if i can empty his books it will help me. And the ward i'm destroying already got at least one cast off.
Undo books win the long run, i don't want to run a marathon against them.
This is more or less the equivalent of why my 'solution' to armor stacking is acid balls.
It's efficient for me and inefficient for my opponent to deal with.
(yes exceptions exists - Priestess, chitin armor, rain cloud etc etc.)
-
Alright... this thread is about AX crown being competitive or not.
I find that Ward Stones are a great support in making him competitive. You find that sufficient dissolves does the job.
Lets agree to disagree about how the AX Crown 'should' solves his 'problems'.
Main point is that he is still in the game.
I will add my last comments to why i like my approach of 'draining' the opponent of mana.
My control wizard uses 4 mage wands ( - used it in ADMW winther Tournament - and ill upload my books when this is wrapped up by Arcane Duels - ). So 3 dissolves is not enough. Also if your solution is to bring 4 instead, then your just screwed if 1 hits a nullify.
Casting a wand is already 5 mana - if you now need to pay 4 mana extra per item you wish to dispell it quickly becomes very mana intensive.
This leads me to the next... in the cases where i actually wish to spend 2 or more wardstones its vs books that are 'undoing'. This is something that needs to be recognized during the game. Usually these books have little to no threads out on the board.
If i am trying to undo their undoing (destroy wands) then i have found that i lose the game. Basically i'm not gaining any momentum in destroying a wand that their forge will deploy again next round again. Only if i can empty his books it will help me. And the ward i'm destroying already got at least one cast off.
Undo books win the long run, i don't want to run a marathon against them.
This is more or less the equivalent of why my 'solution' to armor stacking is acid balls.
It's efficient for me and inefficient for my opponent to deal with.
(yes exceptions exists - Priestess, chitin armor, rain cloud etc etc.)
I think you are right about the wands. In the case of your wizard, I think I would ignore most of the wands and try to get a creature spawnpoint like lair nearby so you can't just telekill my few bigs.
-
Blood Reaper, Sanguine Thirst, Infernian Scourger is a nice combo.
-
Alright... this thread is about AX crown being competitive or not.
I find that Ward Stones are a great support in making him competitive. You find that sufficient dissolves does the job.
Lets agree to disagree about how the AX Crown 'should' solves his 'problems'.
Main point is that he is still in the game.
I will add my last comments to why i like my approach of 'draining' the opponent of mana.
My control wizard uses 4 mage wands ( - used it in ADMW winther Tournament - and ill upload my books when this is wrapped up by Arcane Duels - ). So 3 dissolves is not enough. Also if your solution is to bring 4 instead, then your just screwed if 1 hits a nullify.
Casting a wand is already 5 mana - if you now need to pay 4 mana extra per item you wish to dispell it quickly becomes very mana intensive.
This leads me to the next... in the cases where i actually wish to spend 2 or more wardstones its vs books that are 'undoing'. This is something that needs to be recognized during the game. Usually these books have little to no threads out on the board.
If i am trying to undo their undoing (destroy wands) then i have found that i lose the game. Basically i'm not gaining any momentum in destroying a wand that their forge will deploy again next round again. Only if i can empty his books it will help me. And the ward i'm destroying already got at least one cast off.
Undo books win the long run, i don't want to run a marathon against them.
This is more or less the equivalent of why my 'solution' to armor stacking is acid balls.
It's efficient for me and inefficient for my opponent to deal with.
(yes exceptions exists - Priestess, chitin armor, rain cloud etc etc.)
but doesnt your control wizard also run chitin armor and and wand of healing for acid balls?
didnt run in a nullify with dissolve in like two years if it wasnt on purpose, only devine intervention countered, but yes in the case of 4 wands undoing will lose you, if you dont get to dissolve them all which is highly unlikely against competetive play even with my wand+3dissolve/crumble
would like to see the deck on the 4 mage wands one I either lacked enough dissolve/disperse to relyable use all 4 wands with those spells if I need to use one before or have almost no killing power. (also having sufficient surviveability with 3 regrowth etc). In the end became 3
I think you are right about the wands. In the case of your wizard, I think I would ignore most of the wands and try to get a creature spawnpoint like lair nearby so you can't just telekill my few bigs.
you dont have that in your AD curse/buddy/solo warlock. In current game, for good decks in good players hands some decks just don't have to power against some others, rarely but is.
-
Alright... this thread is about AX crown being competitive or not.
I find that Ward Stones are a great support in making him competitive. You find that sufficient dissolves does the job.
Lets agree to disagree about how the AX Crown 'should' solves his 'problems'.
Main point is that he is still in the game.
I will add my last comments to why i like my approach of 'draining' the opponent of mana.
My control wizard uses 4 mage wands ( - used it in ADMW winther Tournament - and ill upload my books when this is wrapped up by Arcane Duels - ). So 3 dissolves is not enough. Also if your solution is to bring 4 instead, then your just screwed if 1 hits a nullify.
Casting a wand is already 5 mana - if you now need to pay 4 mana extra per item you wish to dispell it quickly becomes very mana intensive.
This leads me to the next... in the cases where i actually wish to spend 2 or more wardstones its vs books that are 'undoing'. This is something that needs to be recognized during the game. Usually these books have little to no threads out on the board.
If i am trying to undo their undoing (destroy wands) then i have found that i lose the game. Basically i'm not gaining any momentum in destroying a wand that their forge will deploy again next round again. Only if i can empty his books it will help me. And the ward i'm destroying already got at least one cast off.
Undo books win the long run, i don't want to run a marathon against them.
This is more or less the equivalent of why my 'solution' to armor stacking is acid balls.
It's efficient for me and inefficient for my opponent to deal with.
(yes exceptions exists - Priestess, chitin armor, rain cloud etc etc.)
but doesnt your control wizard also run chitin armor and and wand of healing for acid balls?
didnt run in a nullify with dissolve in like two years if it wasnt on purpose, only devine intervention countered, but yes in the case of 4 wands undoing will lose you, if you dont get to dissolve them all which is highly unlikely against competetive play even with my wand+3dissolve/crumble
would like to see the deck on the 4 mage wands one I either lacked enough dissolve/disperse to relyable use all 4 wands with those spells if I need to use one before or have almost no killing power. (also having sufficient surviveability with 3 regrowth etc). In the end became 3
I think you are right about the wands. In the case of your wizard, I think I would ignore most of the wands and try to get a creature spawnpoint like lair nearby so you can't just telekill my few bigs.
you dont have that in your AD curse/buddy/solo warlock. In current game, for good decks in good players hands some decks just don't have to power against some others, rarely but is.
If you were playing such a book, would you go after the mage, creatures or gate? Or does it depend?
Do you think a few buddy book could work well for a paladin or siren or a spawnpoint based strategy is better?
Edit: I guess the core of what I'm asking is do you think the Araxian is at a disadvantage because he doesn't have a good creature spawnpoint that is very good and if that is the case, do you think the two new mages have that disadvantage too if you out think their better without a creature spawnpoint.
-
Hey guys,
If we are looking at if the AX Worlock is competitve then you should list the reason he may be competitive.
On the positive side he has:
-Melee +1: 1 of only 3 mages start with +1 melee. (high early damage potential).
-Hit Points: Most Hit Points in the game. (noob friendly)
-Curse Master: The remove curse has partaly nulled this ability, but curses are still good reaction spells ("Raise Dead" right before finishing a creature. Enffeble a large creature right before it charges, and Magebane which I think will always be worth it's cost.
-Blood Reaper: Great healling option. This is a two edged sword, since the Reaper will be a big target. Personally I like casting him Mid game once I took out most of the anti-air (for Blood Demon) or high dice enemy creatures (for ground base demons).
On the Negitive side:
-Curse removal: I think this can be dealt with if you use your curses wisely, (arcane ward or ward stone your curses, and have something to take out any wand. Once the wand is gone then just wand a few on your curses and you are good).
-Healing: This is a Dark school problem, the Reaper will help but you will want to add some armor early.
-Out of school cards: Most out of school cards have a cheaper novies vergen of that card, I would test out those cards and see which of those cards would work with your play style.
Please feel free to add to the list
Thanks
Werekingdom
-
-Healing: This is a Dark school problem, the Reaper will help but you will want to add some armor early.
- siphon life
- drain life
- drain soul
- vampirism
- theft of life
- death link
- demonic link
- animate dead
The Dark school has many ways to heal. They are just different than the well known regrowths and heals.
-
Toss them into Arena i say! Every mage/player is molded by his/her enemies. You can dominate everyone in one town and get zero wins in next one. Stating list of spells doesnt mean they will actually be in my opponents spellbook :)
Biblo, whos travel the wolrd as a Dojo Chalanger, is probably most suitable for answering this question and he can back it up by experience. ;)
-
Honestly i think AX Crown Warlock has 1 bad matchup: Necro with good Fireprotection.
Thats not bad at all. One bad matchup and he has to bring fire protection.
Necro has been really popular around the globe (Europa and USA) :) , and still is as far as i can tell
So i would count on to meet at lest one in a 12+ people tourney.
Who can tell?
-
Honestly i think AX Crown Warlock has 1 bad matchup: Necro with good Fireprotection.
That's what explode is for ;)
I have personally been loving chains of agony for resilient creatures. When paired with Moloch's most of them go down before they can reach you. Its also really effective against creatures like Water Elemental and Zombie Brute
-
Gameplay related (arena), I consider mend to be a dark school spell too. My dark mages run it more than any other of my mages.