Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: Reddicediaries on March 16, 2017, 02:44:19 PM
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So from what I have gathered, spawnpoint mages are a big advantage vs non spawnpoint mages. This is due to the fact that the non spawnpoint mage has to be aggressive in order to make up for the lack of actions.
Typical mages that go non creature spawnpoint:
Both Warlocks
Anvil Throne Warlord
Forcemaster (will not cover her bc mind's eye can make up for the lack of actions in a lot of situations)
Sometimes JBM (but usually that is rushmaster so will not cover her)
Palladin
So looking at these mages let's see why they want to go solo/buddy
Warlocks: Pentagram is really bad. Female Warlock wants to be shooting people with fireballs and male wants to be punching things.
AT Warlord: Barracks does not synch as well with his abilities as forge and few buddies does.
Pally: He is odd bc banner is kind of a spawnpoint, but really tricky to use right. You use it right away, you blow all your mana. Use it later and you don't put as much pressure on.
Temple with him is pretty good, but if priestess can essentially do it better, why go temple at all?
So what can all these non spawnpoint mages do to counter spawnpoints?
Warlord: Use ballista and spells to destroy the point. Akiro's hammer is not half bad as well.
Warlocks: Male uses 2-3 HUGE buddies to wreck the mage/ spawnpoint and female can just burn the thing down. 8 dice fireballs with rerroll is nothing to laugh at.
Pally: I suppose ballista/ cid ball and force hammer/ boulder could work well, but I need to test it some more.
Of all of these mages I think Anvil Throne is the hardest to do with no spawnpoint bc his abilites do not have any offensive power. Warlocks and Pally have abilities that let them "punch through" the defense. Anvil Throne does not.
Warlocks are a lot easier bc they can do so much dmg they don't need a spawnpoint as much.
Now Pally is a bit different. A timing push around Turn 4 could work pretty well. Get bigs in the spawnpoint zone, put concentrated ground in there, and WRECK FACE!.
@sharkbait: Thought you should now a certain somebody on these forums believes your warlock has a 10% win chance against an equually skilled spawnpoint mage. He speaks from "personal experience." Your thoughts on this?
Person who said this, I have no wish to cause tension, but I do think shark should be allowed to explain his point of view as well
Your thoughts are welcome!
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10% of the time, it wins everytime 8)
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10% of the time, it wins everytime 8)
I don't agree with the person that said that at all. More like 50% vs you at least? What does Shark have to do vs you to win and vice versa?
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Not speaking for shark but he rarely actually plays his best in non tournament games. He is usually experimenting with some curse or creature thing to get new strategies. 10% seems like a very specific number for some reason has been calculated
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Not speaking for shark but he rarely actually plays his best in non tournament games. He is usually experimenting with some curse or creature thing to get new strategies. 10% seems like a very specific number for some reason has been calculated
10% is what the unamed person thinks about it. I don't think he actually has much experience fighting it.
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Why go temple with paladin and not priestess? Because if you go really long game and get the aura's active, you can make a holy level 1-3 swarm absurdly strong. Meanwhile your paladin can charge in and fight. It's "only" a 10 mana investment.
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Why go temple with paladin and not priestess? Because if you go really long game and get the aura's active, you can make a holy level 1-3 swarm absurdly strong. Meanwhile your paladin can charge in and fight. It's "only" a 10 mana investment.
The problem is the auras only work if your creatures are in your zone. At least the ones that buff them.
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ב"ה
Straywood beastmasters also occasionally don't use spawnpoints, beacause they want the mana to put pressure early with the creatures the summon as a quick action (and maybe one big creature for a full action).
Priests also some times just bring 2 creatures (a defender and an avenger, one to guard with and the other to avenge the creatures that attacked the one guarding), and rush on to use his holy fire as much as possible.
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ב"ה
Straywood beastmasters also occasionally don't use spawnpoints, beacause they want the mana to put pressure early with the creatures the summon as a quick action (and maybe one big creature for a full action).
Priests also some times just bring 2 creatures (a defender and an avenger, one to guard with and the other to avenge the creatures that attacked the one guarding), and rush on to use his holy fire as much as possible.
Very true!
But I am mainly talking about mages that primarily do not use creature spawnpoints.
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I think the only Mages that I've never tried without a Spawnpoint are Druid ('cause Treebond->Vine Tree), Necromancer ('cause both are amazing, and I always swarm with him; the tough decision is which Spawnpoint to go with), Anvil Throne Warlord and Forcemaster ('cause [mwcard=MW1J04]Battle Forge[/mwcard] is the most versatile Spawnpoint in the game, and I have yet to try a pure "caster" Forcemaster using several Mind's Eyes). Actually, I can't remember if I've ever played Priestess without Temple of Asyra... but that's mainly because I rarely play Priestess. I've definitely tried Gate to Voltari (Mana Worm swarm), Pentagram (mainly in Domination, but at least once in Arena), Barracks (both Arena and Domination), Lair (duh), etc.
I've tried all 3 of the Paladin's Spawnpoint options and haven't decided which is best. Probably Battle Forge, but then he plays a lot like Anvil Throne Warlord, and I don't like having so many books that all play the same way.
The only Mage I've never played with a Spawnpoint is Siren, as I find Echo of the Depths really pricey and generally prefer Naiya (who is a Familiar, not a Spawnpoint). I guess it isn't terrible, but it has a difficult time getting +1 Channeling (which is Pentagram's problem) and is easily destroyed (e.g. it just takes a Dissolve or Crumble, and unlike Libro, it doesn't have a Cantrip-like ability)... although it does have something analogous to Enchanter's Wardstone (or Armor Ward) going for it.
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I think the only Mages that I've never tried without a Spawnpoint are Druid ('cause Treebond->Vine Tree), Necromancer ('cause both are amazing, and I always swarm with him; the tough decision is which Spawnpoint to go with), Anvil Throne Warlord and Forcemaster ('cause [mwcard=MW1J04]Battle Forge[/mwcard] is the most versatile Spawnpoint in the game, and I have yet to try a pure "caster" Forcemaster using several Mind's Eyes). Actually, I can't remember if I've ever played Priestess without Temple of Asyra... but that's mainly because I rarely play Priestess. I've definitely tried Gate to Voltari (Mana Worm swarm), Pentagram (mainly in Domination, but at least once in Arena), Barracks (both Arena and Domination), Lair (duh), etc.
I've tried all 3 of the Paladin's Spawnpoint options and haven't decided which is best. Probably Battle Forge, but then he plays a lot like Anvil Throne Warlord, and I don't like having so many books that all play the same way.
The only Mage I've never played with a Spawnpoint is Siren, as I find Echo of the Depths really pricey and generally prefer Naiya (who is a Familiar, not a Spawnpoint).
Interesting!
I'll plug my opinion in here about banner and temple/ openings in general
Most Paladin openings seem mana and/or action starved. In fact siren seems like that as well.
Even the cheaper ones still require a lot of mana spending on Turns 2-3 and don't give you much defensive or immediate offensive options.
Banner is weird. You can cast it as a "come to me and destroy it or I will get crazy value later in the game," but most pallies that don't use temple want to win in the 6-12 round range.
I also noticed that with pally unless you go Temple, you will want to go all out aggressive bc if you don't you will just generally get overrun in the late game or super defensive bc you get rushed. Not much middle ground.
It's hard to know when to cast the creatures with banner vs hardcast especially.
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@sharkbait: Thought you should now a certain somebody on these forums believes your warlock has a 10% win chance against an equually skilled spawnpoint mage. He speaks from "personal experience." Your thoughts on this?
Person who said this, I have no wish to cause tension, but I do think shark should be allowed to explain his point of view as well
Your thoughts are welcome!
I love to cause tension!
@sharkbait: I totally said that. Maybe not to RedDD but I know I've said that before; Although, now that I type that, I am thinking it might be closer to 5% :D
#DoubleDragon
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@sharkbait: Thought you should now a certain somebody on these forums believes your warlock has a 10% win chance against an equually skilled spawnpoint mage. He speaks from "personal experience." Your thoughts on this?
Person who said this, I have no wish to cause tension, but I do think shark should be allowed to explain his point of view as well
Your thoughts are welcome!
I love to cause tension!
@sharkbait: I totally said that. Maybe not to RedDD but I know I've said that before; Although, now that I type that, I am thinking it might be closer to 5% :D
#DoubleDragon
I knew where the shade was coming from without asking ;). Not my fault you play the wrong warlock 8)
#DoubleDragon
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@sharkbait: Thought you should now a certain somebody on these forums believes your warlock has a 10% win chance against an equually skilled spawnpoint mage. He speaks from "personal experience." Your thoughts on this?
Person who said this, I have no wish to cause tension, but I do think shark should be allowed to explain his point of view as well
Since I am the person who said "this", I obviously need to add some context.
First we were talking about the Paladin and my statement was, that in 9 out of 10 cases a mage with a spawnpoint has a (huge) advantage against a mage without a spawnpoint.
In that case, spawnpoint = everything that generates actions, so I include familiars as well in that statement.
Secondly: you then came up with the argument that this is not true because sharkbait always wins with his warlock - even against priests who play with a spawnpoint. He just burns them away.
My reaction to that is: The holy school has the perfect counter against fire-warlocks. Guardian Angels. They are just brutal and you can't find a better creature to guard your temple. Every turn the spawnpoint-mage survives increases his advantage on the field. He just needs to summon 2 Guardian Angels and the game is literally won already.
And it had nothing to do with Sharks individual play-skill. If he really wins so many matches without a spawnpoint against mages who uses spawnpoints, if anything that makes it even more impressive because from my point of view he is at a disadvantage the moment the battle starts.
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@sharkbait: Thought you should now a certain somebody on these forums believes your warlock has a 10% win chance against an equually skilled spawnpoint mage. He speaks from "personal experience." Your thoughts on this?
Person who said this, I have no wish to cause tension, but I do think shark should be allowed to explain his point of view as well
Since I am the person who said "this", I obviously need to add some context.
First we were talking about the Paladin and my statement was, that in 9 out of 10 cases a mage with a spawnpoint has a (huge) advantage against a mage without a spawnpoint.
In that case, spawnpoint = everything that generates actions, so I include familiars as well in that statement.
Secondly: you then came up with the argument that this is not true because sharkbait always wins with his warlock - even against priests who play with a spawnpoint. He just burns them away.
My reaction to that is: The holy school has the perfect counter against fire-warlocks. Guardian Angels. They are just brutal and you can't find a better creature to guard your temple. Every turn the spawnpoint-mage survives increases his advantage on the field. He just needs to summon 2 Guardian Angels and the game is literally won already.
And it had nothing to do with Sharks individual play-skill. If he really wins so many matches without a spawnpoint against mages who uses spawnpoints, if anything that makes it even more impressive because from my point of view he is at a disadvantage the moment the battle starts.
I did not mean to get Shark angry at you. I wanted him to be able to explain his point of view. Sorry if I offended anyone.
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@sharkbait: Thought you should now a certain somebody on these forums believes your warlock has a 10% win chance against an equually skilled spawnpoint mage. He speaks from "personal experience." Your thoughts on this?
Person who said this, I have no wish to cause tension, but I do think shark should be allowed to explain his point of view as well
Since I am the person who said "this", I obviously need to add some context.
First we were talking about the Paladin and my statement was, that in 9 out of 10 cases a mage with a spawnpoint has a (huge) advantage against a mage without a spawnpoint.
In that case, spawnpoint = everything that generates actions, so I include familiars as well in that statement.
Secondly: you then came up with the argument that this is not true because sharkbait always wins with his warlock - even against priests who play with a spawnpoint. He just burns them away.
My reaction to that is: The holy school has the perfect counter against fire-warlocks. Guardian Angels. They are just brutal and you can't find a better creature to guard your temple. Every turn the spawnpoint-mage survives increases his advantage on the field. He just needs to summon 2 Guardian Angels and the game is literally won already.
And it had nothing to do with Sharks individual play-skill. If he really wins so many matches without a spawnpoint against mages who uses spawnpoints, if anything that makes it even more impressive because from my point of view he is at a disadvantage the moment the battle starts.
I did not mean to get Shark angry at you. I wanted him to be able to explain his point of view. Sorry if I offended anyone.
For the record, no offense taken on this side. 8). Enti brings up a ton of good points about obstacles i face with my warlock. I'll go into mitigation some other night, no time to do so tonight. But the claim that i win "every"match against spawn points is a bit misleading too :P. Context is everything ;)
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When and where did I say you won all your matches vs spawnpoints? I said he burns them; but that doesn't mean he wins all of them. ;)
I believe I said vs Coshade's priest, I believe you have around a 50% win rate.
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ב"ה
Spawnpoints are basically giving up lots of mana now to get more mana and actions later. So the downside of bringing a spawnpoint is risking that your opponent will rush you and kill you (or at least gain a major advantage over you) when you low on mana due to casting the spawnpoint (at least with expansive spawnpoints such as a Lair). Druids are a sort of an exception to that statement, sine the tree actually protect the druid with the ability to transfer damage to it.
While usually taking down a spawnpoint with attack spells cost more mana and action than those used to cast the spawnpoints, and by the time it is destroyed it already provided some mana and actions, taking a spawnpoint with creatures is a pretty good option. So if you bring a Lair with 15 mana, and I bring Brogan Bloodstone with 15 mana, it's still possible for me to destroy your Lair and still have the advantage (and the bear strength and akiro's favor I will cast on brogan will remain even after the Lair is destroyed). So just casting a big creature early could bring you more advantage than bringing a spawnpoint, since creatures are damage economy as they roll dice each round and that could be an even greater advantage early.
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I think the fm can handle spawnpoints very well
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Battleforge and thoughtspores count as "spawnpoint". They both generate additional actions.
And the statement is, that mages without spawnpoint (without additional actions) are generally at a disadvantage against mages who have a spawnpoint.
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Spawnpoint mages can be very good, and non-spawnpoint mages can be very good, it all depends on what you are trying to do, and what kind of mage you are.
The best Straywood and Adramelech builds mostly don't use them for example, and Anvil Throne and Necromancer can be built equally well with or without. If there is a leaning towards more using them than not, then a large part of that issue is BattleForge - at only 3 mana more than a mana crystal, most book concepts can be improved with one and a few more equipment (often a bunch of leather). A lot of aggro books want it, a lot of mid range books want it, and a lot of control books want it. Not all, in any of those categories, but it can serve a lot well.
If you remove Forge from the equation, then you basically have creature spawnpoints left, and that's much more open - 50/50 at best maybe. Also be aware that considering spawnpoints without including Familiars is a bit strange, since they essentially cover very similar ground, and some mages lean more to one than another.
I have over 30 good books built, and probably two thirds have spawn points and familiars, with most having more than one. That said, if push came to shove and I had to step into a World Championship game tomorrow, there are 5 contender strongest books for me to take, and between them they have zero spawn points and 1 familiar... That's not for a moment saying they are bad or can't work - I use them a lot myself (possibly more than most), but you can also build really strong books without them.
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Spawnpoint mages can be very good, and non-spawnpoint mages can be very good, it all depends on what you are trying to do, and what kind of mage you are.
The best Straywood and Adramelech builds mostly don't use them for example, and Anvil Throne and Necromancer can be built equally well with or without. If there is a leaning towards more using them than not, then a large part of that issue is BattleForge - at only 3 mana more than a mana crystal, most book concepts can be improved with one and a few more equipment (often a bunch of leather). A lot of aggro books want it, a lot of mid range books want it, and a lot of control books want it. Not all, in any of those categories, but it can serve a lot well.
If you remove Forge from the equation, then you basically have creature spawnpoints left, and that's much more open - 50/50 at best maybe. Also be aware that considering spawnpoints without including Familiars is a bit strange, since they essentially cover very similar ground, and some mages lean more to one than another.
I have over 30 good books built, and probably two thirds have spawn points and familiars, with most having more than one. That said, if push came to shove and I had to step into a World Championship game tomorrow, there are 5 contender strongest books for me to take, and between them they have zero spawn points and 1 familiar... That's not for a moment saying they are bad or can't work - I use them a lot myself (possibly more than most), but you can also build really strong books without them.
What are those 5 books?
Um, why do you think the best Straywoods don't use lair? And Necro's? There are VERY few necro's that I have seen at a competive level that don't run at least 1 if not 2 or more spawnpoints.
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What are those 5 books?
Well one's an Alfiya Priestess book that's not legal yet. Another is an Adramalech Wizard (probably the favourite), a Straywood action-denial book, a Brute Necromancer and an Adramelech Warlock.
Um, why do you think the best Straywoods don't use lair? And Necro's? There are VERY few necro's that I have seen at a competive level that don't run at least 1 if not 2 or more spawnpoints.
Lair is too expensive and slow for an aggro book, it's viable for a mid-range or kiting book. Necromancer I'm probably swimming against the tide more - both are viable for a slower book (although my control Necro only uses Battleforge) but my aggro Necromancer aims to be swinging with 2 Brutes on turn 3 - spawnpoints waste too much mana, and take too long to break even for that book.
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But what does necro being aggressive with 2 brutes on turn 3 do for you?
Necro is by default a long game mage. You DO NOT want to go into meele with him for the following imo
1. Low Life
2. If you use zombies, most of them can not guard.
3. You don't really have too many good weapons avaliable at cost and buffs like bear strength will literally only work on your mage.
This isn't to say that non spawnpoint necro's can not work. The Book Jimilie from Charlotte plays is VERY good.
With Straywood, what would you attack with? All the level ones are great, but they die. Timber wolves also, but lair offers much more flexibility. Who said you have to go lair if you run it?
Silverclaw, any thoughts on this?
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I have run 3 brutes by t3 before. brute leather, brute leather, brute leather. Then they kill anything in their way, you have 3 armor and 3 huge hitters. It was pretty aggressive and worked well. It can work well. Then you can idol of pestilence to trigger bloodthirst or spam zombie frenzy. He doesnt have to be a long game mage. Just seems to be played that way by the majority of the mw population, myself included