Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: Reddicediaries on January 03, 2017, 07:48:58 PM
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So in my opioun, aggro isn't really viable if you're playing against a good control/long game book. That being said, how would one go about playing a viable aggro forcemaster. Creatures, no creatures. And so on. Thanks!
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Hi =)
Start from here: http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=16120.msg59052#msg59052
Borg got a nice opening idea way back.
There are two vids available in which I play a variation in an OCTGN tourney
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=16887.msg70362#msg70362
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ב"ה
I heard that both in 2015 and 2016 there was an aggro forcemaster book that got into he semi-finals. I think it means they count as "competitive".
Personally, I like to have one non-thoughtspore creature in my forcemaster books. Until recently it was usually a bridge troll or a necroprian vampire, but now with the siren's capability to neutralize single creature I am considering moving to skeleton nights. I didn't try Alandell with a forcemaster yet, but I've heard it is a good option as well.
Smashing things with galvitar is still a viable option, and a really fun one as well ^_^
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Thanks for the responses! I guess I don't consider aggro forcemaster viable becasue good players will have armor/ways to stop you (think charmyna.) I guess i just need to wrap my head around how aggro forcemaster works. My perferred FM is one that tries to be a flexible as possible. It uses mordoks obelisk, altar of infernia, and battle forge among other things.
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Thanks for the responses! I guess I don't consider aggro forcemaster viable becasue good players will have armor/ways to stop you (think charmyna.) I guess i just need to wrap my head around how aggro forcemaster works. My perferred FM is one that tries to be a flexible as possible. It uses mordoks obelisk, altar of infernia, and battle forge among other things.
Aggro is a delicate balance. You need to have enough options to get around the main defense strategy of your opponent, but you also have to have enough threat/staying power to mess them over before they get too far down the path to the long game.
I'm planning to do some Forcemaster experimentation again soon. Just busy with other things atm.
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Aggro FM is still my most successful Mage.
Dissolve or Acid Ball on a Thoughtspore will counter high Armor builds.
I also run 1 non-Force creature and 2 Spores (usually 1 and a backup). I've tried the Stalker, Vampiress, Jelly and Troll. Sometimes go solo and would definitely go solo vs Siren (or might summon a Spore and relay its spells with Mind's Eye).
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I just don't get how aggro forcemaster can work if you play against really high level players. A good player will armor up and make sure they have ways of stopping you.
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Nano sharing your book and strat might give me a better picture of how aggro forcemaster is supposed to work.
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so much for figuring it out. rather than coming up with counters to their counters , you would rather be spoon fed someone elses solution. why not put something together and actually try some of your own. rinse and repeat before giving up entirely.
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No i'm not trying to get spoon fed someone's solution. Firstly, nano has every right not to share his book. Second, I'm trying to get another look on things in case I'm missing something from my point of view. Third, I never gave up. Fourth, I don't have acsess to octgn and want something to think over before I get home.
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here is a ggestion. how about building the book that your are concerned about facing and play both sides of a match against yourself. that may inspire you to thnk about how to approach the opponent. when the enemy plays the turtle, what spells would be helpful. perhaps do not have any book for the fm, and just play it out. docu,emt the spells you use and then at the end see which could be most useful to actually integrate into your real spellbook.
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I don't have acsess to my cards (that at a different location) but i'll test it out. I would like it if you stop assuming every time I ask for advise I want to be spoon fed. I don't. I just want a different perspective. And i'll try and test things before posting questions. If we can both do that, the whole thing should go smoother.
PS: No hard feelings on my end ( I don't hold a grudge or anything.)
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certainly sorry. it came much more harsh than intended. netdecking is my worst pet peeve and respondng on topics where that is part of it brings out the worst in me, and i should know better than to even put in a response.
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Yeah I don't blame you. I certainly wasn't looking to net deck (I rarely do, only when I see a book I can't resist trying out)
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certainly sorry. it came much more harsh than intended. netdecking is my worst pet peeve and respondng on topics where that is part of it brings out the worst in me, and i should know better than to even put in a response.
What's wrong with netdecking?
I mean, I can see why it would be a problem in a game like MtG, where cards are expensive and it's just so much more convenient and less risky to try something that is known to work, even if it makes the metagame less diverse and therefore less interesting.
But Mage Wars is *not* MtG. Cards in Mage Wars all have the same rarity. You don't have anything like staple fetch lands at $20 a card in this game. When players buy the core set, they get a bunch of different cards and strategies to try straight out of the box. Mage Wars kinda goes out of the way to make creative deckbuilding more enjoyable and more convenient.
And Mage Wars involves a lot more skill than MtG. Even if you netdeck in Mage Wars, you still need the skill and familiarity with the deck in order to win.
Good Mage Wars players tend to naturally be better at making better Mage Wars decks. People prefer to play the way they want to play, Mage Wars gives *SO MUCH FREEDOM* to play the game exactly how you want to, to build your strategy exactly how you want to, and in a way that isn't tedious.
With that in mind, there are newer players who aren't very good at building mw decks yet who need more experience with the game before they start making better mw decks, and those players stand to benefit from netdecking. Also, when you fight an opponent who uses a very fun and interesting mw deck, why *wouldn't* you want to try it for yourself?
Also, aggro is totally viable, and so is forcemaster. The thing about aggro is that since you're trying to win more quickly, there's less leeway for mistakes. Wrong moves are wasted actions, and when you aren't using a spawnpoint or familiar that can hurt a lot, or at least it hurts more visibly and immediately. When you make a mistake as a control player it might not become that readily apparent until much later in the game, or at least it doesnt become that readily apparent how bad that mistake was until later in the game. A lot of the mistakes I make playing control I only notice in retrospect at the end of the game.
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It's viable against 99% of the field, but against the 1% (charmyna) it falls short.
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It's viable against 99% of the field, but against the 1% (charmyna) it falls short.
That's because charmyna is one badass Mage Warrior
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That and he runs extremely long game books will are almost impossible to kill fast.
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That and he runs extremely long game books will are almost impossible to kill fast.
Correction, that are almost impossible to kill fast by any means that you currently know of with your current understanding of the game. I think a lot more of this is charmyna' skill and experience with Mage Wars more than anything. He's like a legend here. He went on a couple years hiatus I think but now he's back.
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Well of course its his skill as well. He usually plays long game books that if PLAYED corectly are almost impossible to beat fast. His skill and thinking is what sets him apart from every other mw player on the planet.
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Well of course its his skill as well. He usually plays long game books that if PLAYED corectly are almost impossible to beat fast. His skill and thinking is what sets him apart from every other mw player on the planet.
No you're still missing it. It's almost impossible to beat fast because it's him who's playing it. If charmyna designed aggro decks to fight against his control decks they would still have a pretty good shot of winning lol.
But despite being a genius, from what I recall he's been out of the game for a while. The difference between him and other mw players isn't that large. Drefan or Schwenkgott could probably fight him on even footing. And I think I and a bunch of other players could at least give him a decent challenge and maybe even win on rare occasion.
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My FM book is always in flux. But here are some ideas:
Prior to DvN, high Armor was hard to beat with an Aggro book. Then came Corrodes and negative Armor, specifically Rust, Acid Ball, and Devouring Jelly. With Academy, we also got Crumble, which gets around Nullify but is stopped by Arcane Ward. With the most recent expansions, Acid attacks are weaker thanks to Chitin Armor and Waterfall Cloak, but Armor can be ignored completely thanks to Critical Strike, which can be combined with Lion Savagery and/or Wolf Fury to really get your Piercing up.
Meanwhile, you can use your Thoughtspore(s) to get around Jynx, Falcon Precision to bypass defences, Decoys to fish for Nullify/Arcane Ward, Poisoned Blood to prevent healing, etc.
All of that said, my definition of "Aggro" may be different than yours. If you're looking for a book/strategy that completely ignores what your opponent is doing and still expects to win in 5-7 rounds even against a strong opponent, then I agree, it probably won't work. At least not consistently, and certainly not against an opponent who has seen it before. Otherwise, everyone would be running such Aggro books. In my experience, you need to react to your opponent unless/until you are confident that you can win a race to the finish.
I usually open with Battle Forge and expect at least 4-5 equipment out of it because I can't afford the actions needed to arm myself. That may not be as reliable as the PvS meta stabilizes (e.g. with Swell, Water Elemental). And I have a lot of specific counters to books I expect will give me trouble: Obelisk and Orb for swarms, Sleep(Spore) for annoying creatures, Eagleclaw Boots and Teleport(Spore) for walls/vines/push/kiting, ways to neutralize strong guards (e.g. Mongoose Agility, Tanglevine + Astral Anchor, Knockdown, etc), and whatever else might give you difficulty. Don't be afraid to put a utility spell on a Thoughtspore, like Dissolve or Dispel or Force Push, to act as a deterrent in a specific matchup if nothing more. Don't forget to include some spike healing (e.g. (Minor) Heal), passive healing (Regenerate and/or Vampirism), and be prepared to reveal Forcefield when you are about 50% damaged). All these are in my "Aggro" FM book and see a lot of use.
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Thanks Nano! You explained your points very well. I guess my biggest thought right now is what kind of buddy I want. I wonder if you have ever thought of using skelly knight (good vs siren and enemy forcemasters)
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Well of course its his skill as well. He usually plays long game books that if PLAYED corectly are almost impossible to beat fast. His skill and thinking is what sets him apart from every other mw player on the planet.
No you're still missing it. It's almost impossible to beat fast because it's him who's playing it. If charmyna designed aggro decks to fight against his control decks they would still have a pretty good shot of winning lol.
But despite being a genius, from what I recall he's been out of the game for a while. The difference between him and other mw players isn't that large. Drefan or Schwenkgott could probably fight him on even footing. And I think I and a bunch of other players could at least give him a decent challenge and maybe even win on rare occasion.
The main difference about him is the way he thinks about the game and how he builds his decks. He is the ONLY player who builds deck with the mind set he does.
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Thanks Nano! You explained your points very well. I guess my biggest thought right now is what kind of buddy I want. I wonder if you have ever thought of using skelly knight (good vs siren and enemy forcemasters)
I haven't used one myself, but it looks good. So does Blightheart, though he is a little more expensive. Mort is good too, with built-in quasi-regen, which also combos with Wall of Bones. And Reassemble gives more bang for buck than Minor Heal with a living buddies. The only Psychic Immune buddy I've used was the Devouring Jelly, but Chitin (and Waterfall Cloak) really nerf it. Of course, Clear Mind and Mind Shield are in school, so there is always an affordable counter to psychic Songs available to the FM.
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Thanks Nano! You explained your points very well. I guess my biggest thought right now is what kind of buddy I want. I wonder if you have ever thought of using skelly knight (good vs siren and enemy forcemasters)
I haven't used one myself, but it looks good. So does Blightheart, though he is a little more expensive. Mort is good too, with built-in quasi-regen, which also combos with Wall of Bones. And Reassemble gives more bang for buck than Minor Heal with a living buddies. The only Psychic Immune buddy I've used was the Devouring Jelly, but Chitin (and Waterfall Cloak) really nerf it. Of course, Clear Mind and Mind Shield are in school, so there is always an affordable counter to psychic Songs available to the FM.
Alandell is intersting as well. Support him with a buff or two and he's going to town.
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Thanks Nano! You explained your points very well. I guess my biggest thought right now is what kind of buddy I want. I wonder if you have ever thought of using skelly knight (good vs siren and enemy forcemasters)
I haven't used one myself, but it looks good. So does Blightheart, though he is a little more expensive. Mort is good too, with built-in quasi-regen, which also combos with Wall of Bones. And Reassemble gives more bang for buck than Minor Heal with a living buddies. The only Psychic Immune buddy I've used was the Devouring Jelly, but Chitin (and Waterfall Cloak) really nerf it. Of course, Clear Mind and Mind Shield are in school, so there is always an affordable counter to psychic Songs available to the FM.
Alandell is intersting as well. Support him with a buff or two and he's going to town.
Alandell will be good in the late game, when you have more than enough mana, if he survives that long. Knight of the Red Helm would be great if he weren't so fragile.
I've been tempted to try a Zombie Brute... They're harder to support (e.g. no way to heal them), but nobody likes to see one on their opponent's side, and the FM has lots of cheap ways to make Lumbering a non-factor. Their biggest weakness is probably Eye for an Eye, which is a good counter to Resilient.
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I think we named all the good buddies. Other then the classics: grizzly, troll, vampiress, and stalker.
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I think we named all the good buddies. Other then the classics: grizzly, troll, vampiress, and stalker.
FWIW, I currently have the Vampiress in my book. She's easy to support (eg Living), has built-in healing (Vampiric), a strong attack (5 dice) and can deal with Flying for an affordable price (although can be targeted by non-flying Meyer creatures when they activate). Oh, and she can get over walls on her own. And she'll only get better when Frost damage shows up. ;) Mind Shield and Clear Mind are included to counter Sirens, with the latter available to Thoughtspore if necessary... although Chant of Rage or Siren's Call could mess up my Spore while Song of Love or Lullaby screws with my Vampiress. Have to be careful. Sirens are really good, and I haven't entirely figured out how to deal with them. If I can't beat a Siren with the Vampiress or going solo (maybe with Spore support), I may have to try a level 3-4 Skeleton or a Zombie Brute. Or find 9 sbp's for the Brute as a backup to my Vampiress (?).
I last tried a Bridge Troll who ran into an Andramelech Warlock runnning a swarm of Flame damage demons... which was rough for the Troll, but he provided enough of a distraction to allow my FM to pull off the win despite losing her buddy in the process. A Teleport-spore was summoned mid game and made it easy to hop over Walls of Flame and keep the pressure on to finish the match.
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This is what I came up with for starters.
[spellbook]
[spellbookheader]
[spellbookname]Agrro Forcemaster![/spellbookname]
[mage]A Forcemaster Spellbook[/mage]
[mage]built by the OCTGN SBB[/mage]
[/spellbookheader]
[spells]
[spellclass]Attack[/spellclass]
[mwcard=FWA02]2 x Force Hammer[/mwcard]
[mwcard=DNA01]1 x Acid Ball[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Conjuration[/spellclass]
[mwcard=MW1J04]1 x Battle Forge[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1J16]1 x Mordok's Obelisk[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1J21]1 x Suppression Orb[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1J22]2 x Tanglevine[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWBG1W01]2 x Wall of Force[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Creature[/spellclass]
[mwcard=MW1C26]1 x Necropian Vampiress[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWC16]2 x Thoughtspore[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Enchantment[/spellclass]
[mwcard=LG01E03]2 x Critical Strike[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFE06]1 x Lion Savagery[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWE05]2 x Forcefield[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E01]2 x Bear Strength[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E31]1 x Poisoned Blood[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWE08]1 x Mind Shield[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWBD1E01]1 x Astral Anchor[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWE03]2 x Falcon Precision[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E10]1 x Decoy[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWA01E02]2 x Arcane Ward[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E40]1 x Vampirism[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E05]1 x Cheetah Speed[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1E28]1 x Mongoose Agility[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Equipment[/spellclass]
[mwcard=PSQ05]1 x Leviathan Scale Armor[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1Q06]1 x Dragonscale Hauberk[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1Q23]1 x Regrowth Belt[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWQ04]1 x Galvitar, Force Blade[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWA01Q04]1 x Leather Chausses[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1Q15]1 x Leather Boots[/mwcard]
[mwcard=DNQ09]1 x Wand of Healing[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Incantation[/spellclass]
[mwcard=PSI02]3 x Dispel[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWI13]1 x Seeking Dispel[/mwcard]
[mwcard=PSI01]3 x Dissolve[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I28]2 x Teleport[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I12]2 x Force Push[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWI12]1 x Minor Heal[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I26]1 x Sleep[/mwcard]
[mwcard=LG01I01]2 x Clear Mind[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1I20]1 x Purify[/mwcard]
[/spells]
[cost]Total cost: 120 pts[/cost]
[/spellbook]
It seems fairly solid at first glance. I opted to include more enchantments rather than more wards. Biggest things i might want:
Mage Wand just to prolong all my spells
A wardstone since I have so many enchantments.
Hand of Bin/ more dmg buffs.
More equipment to get more use out of my battle forge.
Things I might cut
A dispel/dissolve: need to test more
Cut down to 1 of most enchants
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just from first looks, i would say you would be safe to cut 1 falcon precision for another poisoned blood. You want to keep that pressure and control and as soon as they get rid of it your control starts to sway a little.
I like the double forcefield! :) I use that in my forcemaster books too
And I dont have very much forcemaster play, im trying to expand it more, but by only having 1 aggressive creature and your mage, you will have more freedom to cast dispel and dissolve which can get rid of cards that hurt your game plan! Idk if I would cut them down - dissolves especially
Another tanglevine might be great too!
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That is very close to my current book. One thing that stands out though is you absolutely NEED a Dancing Scimitar (or 2). Pretty much your most important equipment for Aggro next to Galvitar.
I've ended up dropping the Leather equipment since I usually depend more on Forcefield than Armor. That said, I also have an Elemental Cloak, which combined with Dragonscale really ruins a Warlock's day (and helps vs Lightning Wizard, too).
I agree about more Poisoned Blood, less Falcon Precision. I rarely need the Falcon Precision, but it is handy against certain mages including the mirror match.
I also run a few more protections for my Thoughtspore: cards like Redirect, Glancing Blow, Brace Yourself, Reverse Attack. Which ones and how many will depend on your meta - eg how much players value Unavoidable attacks, Piercing, general hate for flying creatures, etc. In my meta, an unprotected Thoughtspore doesn't last long. But at least it might draw attention while you hammer away with Galvitar + Scimitar.
*edit* I also get a lot of use out of Eagleclaw Boots and Gauntlets of Strength, if you're looking for more cheap equipment for your Forge to deploy.
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ב"ה
I double the recommendation for flying scimitar, it is another attack of 3 dice.
I run a book quite similar with a fair success rate (lost 1 and won either 2 or 3).
I usually prefer rust over critical strike, since critical strike apply only to the first attack (while usually I attack 3 times, twice with galvitar and once with the dancing scimitar).
I also prefer to double Mongoose Agility rather than Falcon Precision, since in the local meta in my area having defending creatures is more common than having defenses on the mage, and since defenses on the mage can be destroyed by dispel or dissolve.
I don't double poison blood, since purify and remove curse became too common in the local meta I play with. I use only one, and I try to counter a healing spell with it (so my opponent both lose the healing and need to pay the cost of getting rid of it).