Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: ClockWork on November 09, 2016, 11:38:54 PM
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I remember even when he was brand new, BWWL didn't feel that great. I don't know if i like especially because he is an underdog, or if punching dudes in a game about magic makes me feel like a nerd rebel.
I think fixing the hammer from his set could be really great, and also releasing a whole bunch non-novice war equipment.
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I do think the Bloodwave Warlord needs some love, but I don't really like any of these suggestions.
-Most soldier cards are already in the War school (and those that aren't probably would not be very useful to him anyway).
-The two-handed weapon change would make him too similar to the Barbarian (one of the next upcoming Mages), who is almost assured to specialize in two-handed weapons and/or dual-wielding.
-Giving him more life, while effective, is boring and doesn't fix his weak abilities.
-Same with mana bonus (which I view as not thematic anyway, since mana control is associated with the Arcane school and the Wizard).
-Paying 1 less mana per turn for war conjurations is the sort of thing which could easily be added as a new ring equipment card effect, but that won't really fix his issues. It will definitely not help his standing in relation to the other Warlord, since any new cards will buff both versions equally.
-Changing the veterans ability is the most promising idea, but restricting it to 2x a creature's level goes against his swarm philosophy. Most of the Bloodwave Warlord's thematic creatures have really poor health and minimal armor. Goblin Grunts have 4 life. Which means that by the time one manages to actually become a veteran (assuming it is not killed instantly), it will die shortly thereafter before it can actually make use of the benefits.
-Once again, this is the sort of thing which would probably be handled with the addition of a new equipment card. I would actually be a fan of this, but at present it wouldn't have a major impact (there aren't that many cards which only effect soldiers) and it wouldn't make him a real competitor to the Anvil Throne Warlord.
Honestly, the only way I see for the Bloodwave Warlord to be properly fixed is for Arcane Wonders to directly errata his card to drastically improve his veterans ability. Any newly introduced cards will only make both Warlords better by an equal margin, and the Anvil Throne Warlord is already far superior to the Bloodwave one. While they are at it, they should probably look at the Priest and Johktari Beastmaster as well. There is little compelling reason to ever play as either of them. I understand the devs' reluctance to errata cards, but sometimes it really is necessary. Having 3 mages be all but useless compared to the rest hurts replayability and competitive diversity.
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a goblin grunt could deal 2 damage as well to become veteran, deal or receive 2x level damage. Orc butcher only needs to roll 4 damage. Don't think either one of those is too hard to do, even without enchantments or orders.
Also want to point soldiers not in school are awesome, tons of skeletons, tons of holy dudes(KnightofWestlock) tons of stuff from PvsS
The impact of soldier subtype is pretty big, orders plus some incantations, veteran token for himself and armory. Soldier subtype is way big, not way small
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I agree it needs work, but I don't favour any of those options. There are other recent threads here on this though.
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ב"ה
I agree it should be augmented, but some augmentations by cards came in PvS (the "war mage only" bracers are awsome) and some promos (the bloodwave greatbow), that perhaps we should see if the cards are enough before going to errata. I think errata should be saved as a last resort.
Warlord academy is also probably coming soon, so more cards will be there.
Personally, I would like to see some fast soldiers.
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Perhaps it has been said before, but I think an easy fix would be adding the Ranged +1 trait to the Veteran ability. It would open up a new niche for a ranged-based mage, and finally the Bloodwave Warlord would be the best at something.
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I'd go so far as to say that both Warlords could gain the "soldier" subtype without breaking anything. Not only would this significantly help the Bloodwave Warlord, it would help to differentiate the Anvil Throne Warlord from the Paladin.
That would mean that their ability card Command spells work on themselves in addition to other friendly soldier creatures, not to mention that they'd gain benefits from things like Armory and Flank Attack, etc.
Hmmm... Imagine if a future Shaman mage could, for instance, pay 1 mana to gain the "animal" subtype? Or maybe there's a werewolf mage that gains the "animal" type when he has initiative? That would work nicely with the existing Totems and other spells that require an "animal" target.
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Some things would be too strong I think. I think Archer's watchtower and overextend could create crazy combo's. Armory would also become too cheap. Conquer would also become way too easy to use.
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I think that allowing him to passively give +1 Melee/+1 Range to all friendly soldier creatures in the arena would help.
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Some time ago I also chimed in another Warlord fixing thread. I believe it's largely his command abilities.
My own main input is that the Battle Orders become free actions. There are plenty of arguments to be made that they take up a precious action, while there are card versions of the commands available, to all mages, at low mana, low points (even novice), and better effects.
Honestly I find myself hardy using a Warlord for his abilities but rather just the strategies and the spells/soldiers available. Only the dwarf Warlord has an ability worth a damn on his card.
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Casting lvl 1 goblin creatures as quick action? That would be nice :)
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Honestly I find myself hardy using a Warlord for his abilities but rather just the strategies and the spells/soldiers available. Only the dwarf Warlord has an ability worth a damn on his card.
Agreed. I use the bloodwave for swarm/conjuration builds since I won't cast a lot of equipment anyway. In that case I prefer the melee +1 over the though -2 and you never know you could have some use out of the veterans. (Although that's mostly wishfull thinking)
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I think an easy fix would be adding the Ranged +1 trait to the Veteran ability
That's rad, so I added it, sorry you didn't get to vote for it.
Personally I would do that, and the veteran token gain change listed. Might be greedy but at least Bloodwave should be a soldier, if not all Warlords. They are Warlords after all. Also if you ask an Orc, "What is your profession?!!" he ain't gonna say baker or poet
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Might be greedy but at least Bloodwave should be a soldier, if not all Warlords. They are Warlords after all. Also if you ask an Orc, "What is your profession?!!" he ain't gonna say baker or poet
Are you then going to make Priest and Priestess Clerics, the Paladin a Knight, and so on...
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I am bummed the Paladin isn't a knight, but understand he is pretty strong in general.
If a Priestess or Priest were a cleric, they could turn a full round into 1 mana remotely at the temple, or build up one skull at the Alter of Skulls? Anything else? That don't seem super great. The priest needs all the help he can get.
I would definitely help those mages who need it. Nerfs are ok, but it's better to buff everyone into shiny golden gods, rather then nerf all characters down to lowest common denominator
On yeah, I'd make the Siren aquatic too!!! And Merren!!! 8)
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If a Priestess or Priest were a cleric, they could turn a full round into 1 mana remotely at the temple, or build up one skull at the Alter of Skulls? Anything else? That don't seem super great. The priest needs all the help he can get.
It's not so much power level, as the sea of errata unleashed from going down this path. Honestly probably a couple of hundred cards could usefully have sub-types added (Incantations and Enchantments especially), but there are already calls for reprinted cards for missing subtypes already...
Nerfs are ok, but it's better to buff everyone into shiny golden gods, rather then nerf all characters down to lowest common denominator
I'm afraid that's where I disagree. I hold to Mark Rosewater's philosophy - you don't make cards as powerful as possible without breaking something, you should make them as weak as possible, whilst still useable.
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The Siren is Aquatic.
While I agree that many of the Mages need balancing, there is a Golden Mean. It is why they changed the Wizard to Air and Arcane only. I think that it would be appropriate to give the Priest training in Fire and Holy, which would make him much more agressive.
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The Siren is Aquatic.
she is Merren too, thats the joke 8)
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ב"ה
I like the Idea of allowing warlords to somehow become soldiers, but I wouldn't do it by errata.
Just like the Warlock got the Demonhide Mask that makes him a demon while attacking, so could the Warlord academy expansion include a "Soldier Cloak" that allows Warlords to be counted as soldiers during attack resolution (of either their attacks or attacks against them). It could also allow them to benefit from their own battle orders as an additional effect. If you are a bloodwave with that "Soldier Cloak", it actually means that your mage could get veteran tokens, as the destruction of enemy creatures could happen during attack resolution :)
If you want to help the bloodwave warlord more, then you could just create spells that make synergies for orcs, just like you have Slaknir for the goblins and Redclaw Alpha for canine.
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a goblin grunt could deal 2 damage as well to become veteran, deal or receive 2x level damage. Orc butcher only needs to roll 4 damage. Don't think either one of those is too hard to do, even without enchantments or orders.
Also want to point soldiers not in school are awesome, tons of skeletons, tons of holy dudes(KnightofWestlock) tons of stuff from PvsS
The impact of soldier subtype is pretty big, orders plus some incantations, veteran token for himself and armory. Soldier subtype is way big, not way small
The 2x damage change would be fine for Orc Butchers, because they have have a decent amount of health. Goblin Grunts, on the other hand, have 0 armor and 4 health, making them one of the easiest creatures to kill in the entire game. Let's say you do manage to have everything go according to plan. You get a fresh Goblin Grunt into position, get a good roll against a low-armor opponent, and it becomes a veteran. You now have to wait an entire turn to be able to make use of the melee +1, and in the meantime, what are the odds that your opponent won't just murder your goblin? Even with the armor +1, most level 2 or greater creatures would have a good chance of killing the goblin with either a 3 dice +1 piercing attack or a 4 dice one. Sure, your idea is better than the official veterans implementation, but it still isn't ideal in my opinion.
There are exactly 4 different skeleton soldier creatures (not counting Academy ones, if any). Even if they were in-school, they don't seem worth playing over equivalent War creatures for the Warlord. Mort is decent for his taint condition and survivability, but he's too costly to play without going all-in on a skeleton army. Skeletal Minions are almost as bad as Goblin Grunts, and you can't buff them with Nature enchantments or heal them via normal means. Skeletal Knights and Knights of Westlock are decent defenders, but if you want to go defensive just use Dwarf Panzergardes instead. The only out of school soldiers I would even consider using (other than legendaries) would be the Skeletal Archer and/or Royal Archer, because quite frankly Goblin Slingers are terrible. Skeletons are pretty much only good if you are a necromancer, because otherwise it is hard to get them to synergize properly. If you want to play stuff that is nonliving and psychic immune, why not just use Iron Golem?
I forgot about the vet token for himself, which would be weird but nice. Still, I don't think a relatively free couple of armor and a melee +1 would make him competitive (and by your own rules, the Warlord would need to either take or dish out 12 damage before getting that veteran token). You can already get similar buffs by slapping on a Rhino Hide or similar Nature enchantments (although of course those can be dispelled).
I like the Idea of allowing warlords to somehow become soldiers, but I wouldn't do it by errata.
Just like the Warlock got the Demonhide Mask that makes him a demon while attacking, so could the Warlord academy expansion include a "Soldier Cloak" that allows Warlords to be counted as soldiers during attack resolution (of either their attacks or attacks against them). It could also allow them to benefit from their own battle orders as an additional effect. If you are a bloodwave with that "Soldier Cloak", it actually means that your mage could get veteran tokens, as the destruction of enemy creatures could happen during attack resolution :)
If you want to help the bloodwave warlord more, then you could just create spells that make synergies for orcs, just like you have Slaknir for the goblins and Redclaw Alpha for canine.
Agreed. I can easily see Arcane Wonders coming out with a Soldier's Helmet or Soldier's Cloak card to give the Warlord the soldier subtype under certain circumstances. Keep in mind, however, that veteran tokens do not stack, so the Warlord could only ever get 1. The problem with just buffing up goblin and orc strategies is that there is nothing from stopping the Dwarf Warlord from using goblins and orcs, just like nothing is stopping the Bloodwave Warlord from using dwarf creatures.
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I agree, the Goblin line of soldier creatures are terrible. I honestly do use Skeletal Minions over Goblin Grunts. only 1 mana more to cast, but 2 more health (survivability), is nonliving (immune to some effects), and psychic immune, so can't be dazed/sleep/etc. Which I think for the purpose of the Skeletal minions/Grunts is a massive bonus. Plus being soldier, the skeletal minions still get the Armory bonus of Piercing +1 and Armor +1. It was a very easy choice in my Warlord book.
The Dwarf lines are decent and do use them. And Orcs really could use a couple more.
But it is a school in which I feel too obligated to go out of school for the low level/low mana creatures. particularly Dark for skeletons or Holy for their Knight/Soldiers.
War school really does need more level 1 creatures that are worth any damn.
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and psychic immune, so can't be dazed/sleep/etc.
Wait, psychic immune can be dazed
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and psychic immune, so can't be dazed/sleep/etc.
Wait, psychic immune can be dazed
Yep - Daze and Stun are NOT Psychic conditions - you can get Undead and Golems with them etc. Nothing in the game is immune to these - think of them as a knockback effect...
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ב"ה
The problem with just buffing up goblin and orc strategies is that there is nothing from stopping the Dwarf Warlord from using goblins and orcs, just like nothing is stopping the Bloodwave Warlord from using dwarf creatures.
Obviously, the anvil throne warlord could use that synergy for his orc creatures. But the bloodwave himself is an orc, so the mage will get the synergy along with his orc creatures. For example, let say we have an effect that give all orcs piercing +2 for all attacks. For an anvil throne warlord this effect will make his orc butchers' attack piercing, but for a bloodwave it will not only make his orc butchers' attacks piercing, but will also make the mages attacks piercing (and a piercing hurl rock sound really cool) because the bloodwave warlord himself is an orc.
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The problem with just buffing up goblin and orc strategies is that there is nothing from stopping the Dwarf Warlord from using goblins and orcs, just like nothing is stopping the Bloodwave Warlord from using dwarf creatures.
What's wrong with that? The only faction is war, and they are all in it together...
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ב"ה
The problem with just buffing up goblin and orc strategies is that there is nothing from stopping the Dwarf Warlord from using goblins and orcs, just like nothing is stopping the Bloodwave Warlord from using dwarf creatures.
What's wrong with that? The only faction is war, and they are all in it together...
Well, it's a response to what I said about making it also close the gap between the two warlords.
That is why I suggested an orc synergy, so when the bloodwave use it the mage get the bonus as well.
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I also think that the problem with the Bloodwave Warlord is the quick commands. I think there are a lot of better options for that action than the quick commands he has available. If they were like the wizards shield (where they could be activated without a quick spell) or if they would stick around similar to the Paladins Auras I think they would be more useful. I'd be willing to pay a little more mana if I could get something that would stick around or not cost an action.
I like the idea of making the Warlord a soldier, but I think that it might make him too powerful. There are too many spells like Conquer, the Battle Standard, and the battle orders that I think it might shift things too far the other way. A boost to mana early, would be nice for getting out some of the conjurations that are essential to a Warlord book, but I don't know that if fits his flavor. Heck, making the outposts, no longer have to be adjacent would be a small move that could help a defensive Warlord play style.
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ב"ה
The problem with just buffing up goblin and orc strategies is that there is nothing from stopping the Dwarf Warlord from using goblins and orcs, just like nothing is stopping the Bloodwave Warlord from using dwarf creatures.
What's wrong with that? The only faction is war, and they are all in it together...
Well, it's a response to what I said about making it also close the gap between the two warlords.
That is why I suggested an orc synergy, so when the bloodwave use it the mage get the bonus as well.
Ah, I misunderstood.
I think orcs, goblins and dwarves are equally applicable to both warlords, and that isn't the way to go. My anvil Throne Warlord uses Goblins and Orcs, but zero Dwarves, and I suspect that's the most common way around.
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ב"ה
I think orcs, goblins and dwarves are equally applicable to both warlords, and that isn't the way to go. My anvil Throne Warlord uses Goblins and Orcs, but zero Dwarves, and I suspect that's the most common way around.
Let say for an example that we have an effect that gives all orcs piercing +2 to all attack.
The anvil throne could use it, and his orc butchers become better against armored opponents.
But when the bloodwave use it, not only does his orc butchers benefit but also the mage itself benefit since the bloodwave himself is an orc (the same way that a siren would benefit from the aquatic synergy, since she herself is aquatic). So when the bloodwave use that synergy, his orc butchers would benefit just like the anvil throne's orc butchers, but the mage will gain the benefits as well (and will get piercing +2 to all attacks, so we could see cool things like piercing hurl boulder).
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Yeah, I get what you are saying, I just think it's the wrong approach to the problem. They need the fundamentals - mana and less actions taken up, not attack bonuses.
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Warschool has very good spawnpoints including one for battleorders.
Warschool has good creatures.
Warschool has discount rings for mana..
Warschool has super conburations but a problem placing them all.
Warschool also has strong enchantments and incantations.
With PvS most of this even improved.
Warschool has a lack of arcaneschool so staples get expensive. I think with a growing cardpool there are more alternatives arriving. This problem will decrease.
After the thread I started a while ago I still think veterans should get ranged +1 as well and soldiers start with vet token if mana=levelbis paid.
What also could help is a ring that buffs attacks war only. But on the other hand it would be boring to have comparable mechanics for all mages. I like that he feels different.
Whatever changes might come, I hope it doesn't affect anvil throne since he is the best tank there is and needs no help.
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Anvil Warlord is pretty good, I consider her to definitely be viable. However the BloodWave needs help, its not right that there is an unspoken ban, that no-one will take that stinky trash-caster to the dance.
Something needs to be done to help the Bloodwave. The fact that Orc's are so poorly represented in this game is racist. Orc's lives matter too you know, guys. They just as good as Human or Dwarves or Elfs
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I like how the vote doesn't just say "He's fine" as an option
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Bloodwave Warlord is actually pretty solid in multiplayer Domination, where Veteran's tokens, Battle Skill (melee +1) and at least 2 of his Battle Orders are useful.
For most mage pairs, I've built an Arena spell book out of one (e.g. Priestess) and a multiplayer Domination book out of the other (e.g. Priest). For Warlords, Anvil Throne is definitely the best at Arena, but Bloodwave is superior at Domination. For Warlocks, I currently have Arraxian Crown (curse-heavy with a buddy) for Arena and Adramelech (Pentagram-based Burn-fueled Imp swarm) for Domination. I have a Skeleton Necromancer for Domination and am working on a Zombie Necromancer for Arena. I even have 2 Wizards: a mana-denial Wizard for Arena and a Gremlin swarm for Domination. I currently have a Druid for Domination only and a Forcemaster for Arena only. And I'm working on a Siren for Domination and a Paladin for Arena.
The only situation where it breaks down is Beastmasters. Straywood is currently better than Johktari at both formats, as Quicksummoning is amazing in Domination and his skills are still generally better in Arena. That said, I currently only have Straywood built for Domination and Johktari built for Arena... but Johktari rarely gets played (and I don't think I've ever won with her).
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I like how the vote doesn't just say "He's fine" as an option
It also doesn't a vote for "Nerf Him" either, weird.
True though, Bloodwave is pretty good in Domination. L
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Apologies on offending you sir. I genuinely believe the warlord is ok right now. I'll butt out of the thread
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I genuinely believe the warlord is ok right now. I'll butt out of the thread
+1
The two recent expansions have provided several new war school spells that add new dimensions to Warlord play. I am updating all my spellbooks with Ballista, Steep Hill, etc. and relooking at Quicksand now that we have Astral Anchor. The combination of full school training in two schools positions this mage as one of the strongest mages. He has in-school access to both good range and melee creatures, a full spectrum of attack spells, and the most conjurations to craft a strategy.
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The two recent expansions have provided several new war school spells that add new dimensions to Warlord play. I am updating all my spellbooks with Ballista, Steep Hill, etc. and relooking at Quicksand now that we have Astral Anchor. The combination of full school training in two schools positions this mage as one of the strongest mages. He has in-school access to both good range and melee creatures, a full spectrum of attack spells, and the most conjurations to craft a strategy.
And everything he does, Anvil Throne does better...
I've had 4 Ballistas for years, and Steep Hill doesn't change enough. He's still the weakest mage.
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The two recent expansions have provided several new war school spells that add new dimensions to Warlord play. I am updating all my spellbooks with Ballista, Steep Hill, etc. and relooking at Quicksand now that we have Astral Anchor. The combination of full school training in two schools positions this mage as one of the strongest mages. He has in-school access to both good range and melee creatures, a full spectrum of attack spells, and the most conjurations to craft a strategy.
And everything he does, Anvil Throne does better...
I've had 4 Ballistas for years, and Steep Hill doesn't change enough. He's still the weakest mage.
Comparing ability cards between the two it appears that Bloodwave is better at rushing since he has +1 melee, more health, and more dice bonuses for offensive battle orders than Anvil Throne. As the pictures on each show he wasn't meant to use a ton of equipment like A.T. so I don't focus on Battle Forge lines of play with the Bloodwave. The creature images on the cards always show the Dwarves of the Anvil Throne mountains with armor while Orcs are more tribal looking. This helps me focus spell choices and strategies to reflect these nuisances. For example, I tend to focus on level 3 or higher creatures so they are more likely to remain in play once they achieve Veterans status. Trying to build level 1 and 2 creatures into Veterans is a losing gamble. As in war they have their uses. I.e. Grunts do the dying while the Veterans learn to survive.
Of course your mileage will vary. My regular opponent loves playing Warlords. Perhaps we will try some Warlord duels to investigate the discussion in this folder in more detail. I may be persuaded but I don't see it yet.
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I like how the vote doesn't just say "He's fine" as an option
Yes, agreed. I place him at the bottom of the tiers in Arena, However in Domination this mage is mid Tier 2. There is nothing wrong with the card himself as he is playable in atleast one format. Is the Anvil throne better? Yes.
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There is nothing wrong with the card himself as he is playable in atleast one format.
Personally I don't agree that 'playable in at least one format' is a high enough bar for any card, although I think it's inevitable.
This brings me back to how having 3 different Mage Wars games dilutes the quality of cards produced for Arena...
Not that Bloodwave fell foul of this - he was underpowered in the only game in town when he was published.
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Apologies on offending you sir. I genuinely believe the warlord is ok right now. I'll butt out of the thread
I am of the same opinion. Have not voted since my preference was not listed. I think he is fine too. Just have to play him differently than the dwarf.
The wizard changes made both warlords much more unique, and possibly able to shine now. It seems since wizard has been updated, the focus on these minutia had to go somewhere I suppose, so the jbm and warlords are getting the scrutiny. I think that this is a circular discussion since I would guess it to be extremely unlikely that aw will make any changes to ability cards of any mages printed to date. The wizard updates were extremely elegant. I commend the aw staff for coming up with it. If they were to redress any mage cards, I would also guess it will be via new spells along the way in some fashion much like the hunting spear appears to be beneficial for the jbm.
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Once I re-familiarize myself with the current state of the game, I'll be testing the Orc Warlord a lot. Before I took a hiatus, I played him quite a bit and found him very effective, as long as you have access to all the great war cards from other sets like FiF. That set, plus bringing in Trolls from Kumanjaro and Meditation Amulet from DvN, makes his swarm game very good.
You can't really make comparisons based solely on mage ability cards, because a lot of power of a mage isn't included there. To the extent that it is, I don't even think the Orc Warlord's abilities are that bad, especially if you know the strategic value of Veteran and the commands, which is long-term swarm supremacy against other swarms. Properly supported with Fortified Position, Armory, Standard Bearer (amazing card), Group Heals, maybe Etherian Life Tree and probably a Fog wall or two to mess with LoS (if you suspect a zone attack), your level 2 and up veterans should last a while and will eventually out-value other swarms. Even your Grunts that manage to survive or are summoned mid-late game stand a pretty good chance of avoiding getting one-shotted once you have all of your swarm buffs online. Some Rouse the Beast serve him very well too, unlike the Necromancer.
If I'm playing Orc Warlord and my opponent begins with some kind of spawnpoint, I'm feeling good about my chances in general.
Things are a bit different when I can't get reliably get Veteran, like when I'm playing against a more solo mage like Forcemaster or Warlock. I opt to not go the spawnpoint route against Warlock, since Warlock basically counters all the supporting cards for the spawnpoint build order (everything is weak to fire), and instead go with a Battleforge build order built to counter Warlock and Forcemaster. Iron Golems, supported with Charge, and a well timed Agony can be a real headache for either mage. Landing a lucky Daze or Slam also wrecks more solo mages, though a good Warlock/Forcemaster book should absolutely have ways to deal with it (Akiro's Favor, Colossus Belt, Wand of Healing, etc).
I could go on, but suffice to say I think the Orc Warlord has plenty of tools to compete on par with the other mages. The only thing I really have never understood about Warlord is the outpost placement restriction. I don't know if it's a thematic gesture, but it just seems entirely unnecessary. It's not a big deal, though, because defending more than one Garrison Post is tough against a smart opponent.
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One big disadvantage of the Orc warlord are the battle commands. Actually they should be an advantage for the orc warlord, but most warlord player I know use instead other more powerful command spells from their spell book.
The easiest fix of the warlord in my opinion will be to improve the battle commands.
The outpost rule is also a topic and can be fixed by adding a general outpost trait for conjurations:
Outpost
Friendly soldier creatures need only a quick action to move between friendly outpost conjurations.
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Who knows ... maybe there will be a way for the warlord in the future to use his commands without wasting one of his precious actions.
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One big disadvantage of the Orc warlord are the battle commands. Actually they should be an advantage for the orc warlord, but most warlord player I know use instead other more powerful command spells from their spell book.
The easiest fix of the warlord in my opinion will be to improve the battle commands.
The outpost rule is also a topic and can be fixed by adding a general outpost trait for conjurations:
Outpost
Friendly soldier creatures need only a quick action to move between friendly outpost conjurations.
I always thought that the Orc's commands were superior to the Dwarf's, as they should be, given the strength of the Dwarf's Runes. You should always have the bigger picture in mind when playing the Warlord, and his Battle Orders let him do something solid for 0-1 mana if you realize you can't make good use of one of your prepared cards, need to save up extra mana to get out another creature, etc.
And the bigger picture for Orc Warlord isn't complicated, as you should generally be doing one of three things; summoning more creatures, adding more dice through things like commands and Rouse the Beast, or preparing heals to make sure your swarm stays alive.
Who knows ... maybe there will be a way for the warlord in the future to use his commands without wasting one of his precious actions.
Well, the Orc Warlord never really lacked for action quantity, it was more that without all the helpful expansion cards, the quality of his actions didn't scale well enough as the game went on. Standard Bearer and Fortified Position are great, but he needs his Signet Ring and Armory, and some Acid Balls too. The biggest weakness of the Warlord, and the swarming playstyle in general, is the fact the cards that are necessary for him to compete are spread over multiple expansions.
Also, the Warlord does have a way to use commands without spending a mage action; Gurmash does that exact thing plus more. He's not as strong of a caster as some other familiars, but he's also less expensive, arguably sturdier and has the best base attack of any familiar.
If you meant he should be able to use his commands without spending an action at all, that seems hard to balance. Maybe give him some kind of amulet equipment that allows for that?
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The biggest weakness of the Warlord, and the swarming playstyle in general, is the fact the cards that are necessary for him to compete are spread over multiple expansions.
Sorry but this is a moot argument. My current toolbox that gets added to every book in varying amounts is from multiple sets.
Acid Ball (DvN)
Brace Yourself (FiF)
Crumble (Academy)
However the rest is core, you can compete with just core and core academy. I built a Straywood Beastmaster that way.
I would argue in your case that you could compete with just Core, FvW, and FiF; giving you all the tools you need soldier wise, all the toolbox cars you need (rust replaces acid ball). However I would still say that you pick the Anvil Throne over the Bloodwave for Arena.
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Decent in the less popular game mode means very little.
The scrutiny hasn't shifted, Blood wave (and JBM) have been trash tier for a long time (maybe even since their respective Day1).
Don't understand how anyone can defend Veteran tokens, or Battle Orders. His rule card is basically blank accept for battle skill.
I want to like this guy, I bought his expansion within weeks of release. He just does less than all other mages, and gets stomped on because he's terrible at most everything, and decent at..... punching?
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Decent in the less popular game mode means very little.
The scrutiny hasn't shifted, Blood wave (and JBM) have been trash tier for a long time (maybe even since their respective Day1).
Don't understand how anyone can defend Veteran tokens, or Battle Orders. His rule card is basically blank accept for battle skill.
Agreed. And all posts I make assume unlimited access to all sets.
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The biggest weakness of the Warlord, and the swarming playstyle in general, is the fact the cards that are necessary for him to compete are spread over multiple expansions.
Sorry but this is a moot argument. My current toolbox that gets added to every book in varying amounts is from multiple sets.
Acid Ball (DvN)
Brace Yourself (FiF)
Crumble (Academy)
However the rest is core, you can compete with just core and core academy. I built a Straywood Beastmaster that way.
I would argue in your case that you could compete with just Core, FvW, and FiF; giving you all the tools you need soldier wise, all the toolbox cars you need (rust replaces acid ball). However I would still say that you pick the Anvil Throne over the Bloodwave for Arena.
Money is not a moot argument. While Mage Wars is a great game and the products are more than fairly priced, you nevertheless cannot be fully competitive in Mage Wars if you do not have access to certain cards, and certain amounts of those cards.
I'm not surprised you were able to build a fine Straywood BM book given just Core and Academy, because the BM is better positioned to deal with the fact that armor is basically overpowered given just the Core set, which also means smaller creatures quickly lose their efficiency. Tooth and Nail and Redclaw, which only the BM can realistically use, preserve the efficiency of smaller animal creatures, and so his swarms were inherently more viable based on the card pool. Once you add in the other cards that benefit swarms from Academy, like Slavorg, you probably can do a great job with a BM swarm playstyle with just Core and Academy, though you're still missing Meditation Amulet.
Wizard also was well-positioned at the time with Blue Gremlins and the best access to Dissolve, but he didn't really swarm past using Gremlins. Which was usually fine outside zone attacks, because Gremlins are nuts.
However, AC Warlock and Priestess can't swarm given just those same sets, and especially not just the core set. And that's fine, because they're good at their "solo plus a buddy or two playstyle" and they have alternate mage cards that focus more on summoning multiple creatures.
My point is that the Warlord in particular needs pretty much every set except Academy to really succeed. BM is not a good comparison, because the BM was fleshed out over less expansions.
I also strongly disagree that Rust can replace Acid Ball; Acid Ball is not replaceable and if anything, Acid Ball is stronger than Rust (at least for the Warlord), for a few important reasons:
1. Acid Ball can target conjurations, which is a big deal.
2. The Warlord can, for efficient spellbook points, reliably "force through" an Acid Ball with Sniper Shot if he suspects a Block. Yes, you can also force a Rust if you suspect a Nullify with a novice card like Disarm for the same number of points, but you will likely lose an action if your opponent actually played a Block instead.
3. You can bind Sniper Shot to your Helm and Acid Ball to an Elemental Wand if you suspect your opponent is going to be playing armor cards for a while, and you can cast both off of a Battleforge. On the other hand, you will eventually run out of Rusts, and Mage Wand and typical enchantment removal is very expensive in terms of spellbook points. You can also protect your investments with Champion's Gauntlets and Harshforge Plate if you need to.
4. The Wizard can trade Dispel for a Warlord's Rust all day at a spellbook points and mana advantage. He can prevent the Acid Ball damage with Voltaric Shield, but he can't prevent the effects, which is what you really want.
Rust by no means sucks, as it is less expensive and will always give Armor -2 (not just expected to like Acid Ball), but you should be playing Akiro's Favor anyway, and that practically ensures you'll get two corrodes and perhaps save you from a catastrophically bad roll on a Hurl Rock/Boulder later on.
Maybe I feel that DvN is so important because I've been around the game since the release of Core and experienced the excessive armor-stacking problem and weakness of small creatures first hand, but that doesn't change the fact that I would still seriously question the viability of swarms without access to Acid Ball and Meditation Amulet.
~The End~
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Money is not a moot argument. While Mage Wars is a great game and the products are more than fairly priced, you nevertheless cannot be fully competitive in Mage Wars if you do not have access to certain cards, and certain amounts of those cards.
I disagree as that was not what I was calling moot. I was saying in response to your statement that Warlord has a weakness by requiring multiple expansions. Yes I went on to further say, as a side note that I built a BM with 2 sets. However I also stated that you could build Warlord with 3 sets.
My point is that the Warlord in particular needs pretty much every set except Academy to really succeed. BM is not a good comparison, because the BM was fleshed out over less expansions.
Again a side point to further the point you do not require all sets. Also the Warlord was fleshed over 2 sets with core cards as well. Basically the same as the Beastmaster.
I also strongly disagree that Rust can replace Acid Ball; Acid Ball is not replaceable and if anything,
This game is about adapting and overcoming. The not having the acid ball in your book is no different from being in the late game where a creative opponent has removed the corrode counters and is on the same amount of armour. The rust is actually more reliable in the late game, it removes a set amount of armour which increases the result of any damage and is part of the plan B/late game out strategy.
1. Acid Ball can target conjurations, which is a big deal.
Thats nice, so does Conquer.
2. The Warlord can, for efficient spellbook points, reliably "force through" an Acid Ball with Sniper Shot if he suspects a Block. Yes, you can also force a Rust if you suspect a Nullify with a novice card like Disarm for the same number of points, but you will likely lose an action if your opponent actually played a Block instead.
SBP do not matter. If they buy you the best tools available to you then I am happy to pay 12 SBP a time and have three, if they win me the game consistently.
3. You can bind Sniper Shot to your Helm and Acid Ball to an Elemental Wand if you suspect your opponent is going to be playing armor cards for a while, and you can cast both off of a Battleforge. On the other hand, you will eventually run out of Rusts, and Mage Wand and typical enchantment removal is very expensive in terms of spellbook points. You can also protect your investments with Champion's Gauntlets and Harshforge Plate if you need to.
This is yet another example of the cancerous attitude that "as long as I throw enough mana and actions at it, no matter how inefficient then its a win" that is rife in these forums. The game is about killing the opponent before he kills you, by focusing actions and mana inefficiently you are less likely to do this. Mana + Actions >>>> SBP!!!!!
4. The Wizard can trade Dispel for a Warlord's Rust all day at a spellbook points and mana advantage. He can prevent the Acid Ball damage with Voltaric Shield, but he can't prevent the effects, which is what you really want.
A wizard can decrease his armour with the use of different chest pieces and assorted gloves and boots. This causes the removal of corrode counters. Yes he can prevent the effects, you are wrong.
you should be playing Akiro's Favor anyway, and that practically ensures you'll get two corrodes and perhaps save you from a catastrophically bad roll on a Hurl Rock/Boulder later on.
This is a win more card, not a win card. Also this card does not control the dice only changes their probability of rolling more favourable results. I would add more dice before having a reroll.
Maybe I feel that DvN is so important because I've been around the game since the release of Core and experienced the excessive armor-stacking problem and weakness of small creatures first hand, but that doesn't change the fact that I would still seriously question the viability of swarms without access to Acid Ball and Meditation Amulet.
That's your view, I do not share it. I also will point out that the GenCon Aviary book does not use Meditation Amulet and won the tournament. I would say that proves your argument here to be incorrect.
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Money is not a moot argument. While Mage Wars is a great game and the products are more than fairly priced, you nevertheless cannot be fully competitive in Mage Wars if you do not have access to certain cards, and certain amounts of those cards.
1. I disagree as that was not what I was calling moot. I was saying in response to your statement that Warlord has a weakness by requiring multiple expansions. Yes I went on to further say, as a side note that I built a BM with 2 sets. However I also stated that you could build Warlord with 3 sets.
My point is that the Warlord in particular needs pretty much every set except Academy to really succeed. BM is not a good comparison, because the BM was fleshed out over less expansions.
2. Again a side point to further the point you do not require all sets. Also the Warlord was fleshed over 2 sets with core cards as well. Basically the same as the Beastmaster.
I also strongly disagree that Rust can replace Acid Ball; Acid Ball is not replaceable and if anything,
3. This game is about adapting and overcoming. The not having the acid ball in your book is no different from being in the late game where a creative opponent has removed the corrode counters and is on the same amount of armour. The rust is actually more reliable in the late game, it removes a set amount of armour which increases the result of any damage and is part of the plan B/late game out strategy.
1. Acid Ball can target conjurations, which is a big deal.
4. Thats nice, so does Conquer.
2. The Warlord can, for efficient spellbook points, reliably "force through" an Acid Ball with Sniper Shot if he suspects a Block. Yes, you can also force a Rust if you suspect a Nullify with a novice card like Disarm for the same number of points, but you will likely lose an action if your opponent actually played a Block instead.
5. SBP do not matter. If they buy you the best tools available to you then I am happy to pay 12 SBP a time and have three, if they win me the game consistently.
3. You can bind Sniper Shot to your Helm and Acid Ball to an Elemental Wand if you suspect your opponent is going to be playing armor cards for a while, and you can cast both off of a Battleforge. On the other hand, you will eventually run out of Rusts, and Mage Wand and typical enchantment removal is very expensive in terms of spellbook points. You can also protect your investments with Champion's Gauntlets and Harshforge Plate if you need to.
6. This is yet another example of the cancerous attitude that "as long as I throw enough mana and actions at it, no matter how inefficient then its a win" that is rife in these forums. The game is about killing the opponent before he kills you, by focusing actions and mana inefficiently you are less likely to do this. Mana + Actions >>>> SBP!!!!!
4. The Wizard can trade Dispel for a Warlord's Rust all day at a spellbook points and mana advantage. He can prevent the Acid Ball damage with Voltaric Shield, but he can't prevent the effects, which is what you really want.
7. A wizard can decrease his armour with the use of different chest pieces and assorted gloves and boots. This causes the removal of corrode counters. Yes he can prevent the effects, you are wrong.
you should be playing Akiro's Favor anyway, and that practically ensures you'll get two corrodes and perhaps save you from a catastrophically bad roll on a Hurl Rock/Boulder later on.
8. This is a win more card, not a win card. Also this card does not control the dice only changes their probability of rolling more favourable results. I would add more dice before having a reroll.
Maybe I feel that DvN is so important because I've been around the game since the release of Core and experienced the excessive armor-stacking problem and weakness of small creatures first hand, but that doesn't change the fact that I would still seriously question the viability of swarms without access to Acid Ball and Meditation Amulet.
9. That's your view, I do not share it. I also will point out that the GenCon Aviary book does not use Meditation Amulet and won the tournament. I would say that proves your argument here to be incorrect.
1. I can't tell if we are disagreeing or agreeing. I'm going to assume we're agreeing, for the sake of brevity, because this is going to be a long post.
2. No, the Warlord was not fleshed out over the same amount of sets as the BM, and I explained exactly why he wasn't. You need Core, FvW, Trolls from Kumanjaro (Panzergardes are also great), DvN for at least Acid Ball, and FiF for obvious reasons. I'm not yet sure how necessary PvS is, still getting my games in, and you don't need Academy sure, but that's still 5 expansions, which is a significant investment.
3. Ideally, you should be using some combination of Acid Ball and Rust to attack armor from multiple axes of interaction, but if I'm playing Warlord, I will lean more on Acid Balls for the 4 reasons I stated.
You don't provide an explanation as to why Rust is superior in the late game, but I can see how that is at least sometimes true, given that in the late game, mages will likely be sufficiently buffed and Dispels might be used up. I would say that it really depends on the matchup, because while mages like the Priestess and Dwarf Warlord can innately deal with Corrode easier, that's not the case with other mages. Other mages have less efficient ways of dealing with Corrodes that involve armor changing and using Healing Wand that are more vulnerable to disruption.
That also doesn't change the fact that Acid Ball is still superior for the other 2/3s of the game. But again, I fully acknowledge that they are really meant to be used together, because that is when they are most effective.
4. Acid Ball is much, much better than Conquer. Conquer is big SBP investment and requires further support beyond just paying mana and one action to actually pull off. I've removed Conquer from almost every Orc Warlord Book I've played because it's too expensive, too unreliable, and too narrow.
5. I'm surprised to hear someone say that SBP don't matter...in a game in which an entire mage character (Wizard) was nerfed almost precisely because SBP matter (also nerfed, I imagine, because he was hogging future design space). Probably the biggest criticism for the Warlord is his 3x penalty for Arcane, and it is a valid criticism because Arcane really is an excellent school that provides fundamental cards that you must use in some quantity to succeed. The need for Arcane has measurably decreased, particularly for the War mages, with the release of cards like Harshforge Plate/Monolith, Steadfast Boots, etc, but the need is still there.
Having less cards in your SBP than your opponent is fundamentally a big deal, as it is with any miniatures games that rely on an army point system. In general, a smaller army is worse than a larger army; in general, more cards is better than less cards.
But if you're convinced SBP points don't matter, try this; next time you play an opponent with roughly the same skill level as yourself, ask if you can use 150 SBP while they use only 100. I doubt they'd consent to that.
6. Firstly, I don't appreciate you calling my "attitude," "cancerous." I did not insult anyone; I just laid out my case for which I provided reasons and evidence. Let's keep things civil.
Secondly, I gave a specific context for the play I recommended; that is, if you think armor stacking is so central to your opponent's strategy that having a potential mana and action inefficiency justifies increasing your SBP efficiency via spellbind cards. Furthermore, it's not like playing an Elemental Wand with Acid Ball attached is somehow a garbage play...for a small mana cost and probably not even a mage action, you can throw Acid Balls at anything for the rest of game if you feel you need to. I am in no way recommending someone make the play I said, unless that situation arises. I am merely saying that the Warlord is well-prepared to fight that kind of contest and win, if he has to.
7. Did you read what I wrote? I was referencing Voltaric Shield's interaction with Acid Ball. Additionally, switching up your armor pieces in response to someone corroding your armor is not "preventing" corrode. Prevention is by definition not allowing something to happen in the first place; it is not spending mana and actions to change something that has already taken place.
8. I don't understand how you logically separate "controlling dice" from "changing their probability of rolling more favorable results" in a game that is all about rolling dice. All Akiro's Favor does is control dice, because it allows you greater control over their outcome. Increasing your dice count is often the better initial line of play, I agree, but Akiro's Favor is not win-more at all, unless you're seriously arguing that you are going to roll statistically expected damage the entire game, which is frankly not realistic. The opportunity cost of playing Akiro's Favor at the beginning of the game for a small amount of mana and a quick action is very low compared to the probable payoff you're going to get. This is even truer for mages who have effect die rolls on key equipment or attacks which have a less than 50% chance of occurring, or preserving the action of a buffed creature.
For any mage who has less numerous but higher quality actions, a solid two copies of Akiro's Favor is absolutely necessary (except the Paladin perhaps, who has a built-in psuedo-Akiro's Favor). I would argue that Akiro's Favor is a bit less necessary for mages who have more actions but of a lower quality, but it is still strong enough that I always keep at least one copy as a low-cost option.
9. The BM has less of a need for Meditation Amulet, because of his innately more efficient attack action and higher life. The Warlord is equivalent in that respect too, but I meant that Meditation Amulet, in general, helps swarms, not just the Warlord's swarms. Not all Mages have the same needs even with a similar playstyle.
And if we're going to discuss the Straywood Aviary tournament result, you should note that 3 Acid Balls were included in the deck AND the champ concurs with my sentiment that DvN is critical to swarms. For example:
(http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=14540.0 (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=14540.0))
(Silverclaw asking Alexander West)
SCG: "Given that swarms, especially the Beast Master, have been given such a bad light do you see your victory changing perceptions?"
AW: "It's too early to know for sure, but I think the answer is yes. Public opinion is a powerful force, and it's been against swarms for some time. However, the tools have been there for swarms to work for a while (since DvN in my opinion), and it's pretty hard to ignore a swarm winning the biggest annual Mage Wars tournament."
So, it doesn't matter if you think Meditation Amulet is unnecessary for swarms or that one was not included in the tournament-winning book, because the best player at the time (for what it's worth) still fully acknowledged that DvN, and thus Acid Ball in particular (as his book proves) is necessary for the swarm playstyle. That is the crux of my argument, and if you're going to use Alexander West as the authority on the topic, he thinks the same.
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What's say we let this thread die....again. just saying nobody is gonna change any sides here.
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agreed.
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What's say we let this thread die....again. just saying nobody is gonna change any sides here.
That's why the Arena was created in the first place. ☺
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so some people DO think he is as good as Wizard/Druid/Nerco/Priestess/ATWarlord?
Because if he's not.... don't we want to give him a gentle nudge in that direction?
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Yes, some of us do think that he is fine. Others do not, and that is why this thread has been going in circles, and the suggestion to end the circle by locking it, or informing such that no one posts any replies and it archives over time.
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Do these same people think that if bloodwave was given a little help, it would hurt the game? Do they think that if his veteran token could be used reliably, we'd see him as 50% of tournaments books, or that he might "over centralized the metagame and *excessively constrained viable spellbook design"?
I feel he could get a little better without destroying the balance of the game.
Do people see him played alot? Do we see him win?
I feel he is under represented, and that i am at some small disadvantage when I use him.
I just wanna make Bloodwave great again (or for the first time)