Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spells => Topic started by: Tyrnan on September 12, 2016, 04:20:24 PM
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"... during this mage's activation" means >>anytime while this mage is active<< and not >>directly after this mage's activation (indicated by flicking the action marker)<<, right?
This is not relevant for Academy because the mage cannot take a move action, so I'm asking this here in the arena forum, where it is relevant whether a mage uses the cowl's effect before or after moving.
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Yes you would have to use the cowl after flipping you mage's action marker and before using a quick cast or ready marker, but I would say you could use your action to summon a creature and then use the cowl to give that creature a guard marker.
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I agree with Puddnhead. During the Mage's activation means anytime after you flip their action marker and before you end their action phase. That last part is a bit tricky because the end of an action phase doesn't really have anything marking it and in practice mostly just boils down to you saying that you're done. It definitely ends though before you have another opportunity to use your Quick Cast Marker or can use any other effects that occur "after" a creature's action phase. So as long as you use it between those two points, you're fine.
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Thank you very much Puddnhead and Zuberi. That's exactly how I read it :).
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If it is the case that activation basically consists of flipping the action marker, removing the guard token and performing an action - as I understand your reply above - shouldn't we clarify that in the Codex?
Activate
When you choose to take an Action Phase with a creature you activate it. Flip its action marker over, and remove any guard marker on it.
Doesn't this definition make it look like activation merely covers the act of choosing the next creature, flipping its action marker and removing the guard token? Excluding the action? The word "Activation" is not in the Codex?
Also: does this mean that "creature action phase" and "activation" are basically synonyms? So could the card have said: "During this mage's action phase" and would that be the same as "During this mage's activation"?.
Would that perhaps even be clearer?
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If it is the case that activation basically consists of flipping the action marker, removing the guard token and performing an action - as I understand your reply above - shouldn't we clarify that in the Codex?
Activate
When you choose to take an Action Phase with a creature you activate it. Flip its action marker over, and remove any guard marker on it.
Doesn't this definition make it look like activation merely covers the act of choosing the next creature, flipping its action marker and removing the guard token? Excluding the action?
Activation
During the Action Phase, players take turns acting
with their creatures. When you choose a creature
to act with, you activate it. When a creature takes
its turn to act, it is called an activation.
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Activation
During the Action Phase, players take turns acting
with their creatures. When you choose a creature
to act with, you activate it. When a creature takes
its turn to act, it is called an activation.
I find that is a rather fuzzy definition it could still mean that an action is preceded by an activation instead of an activation containing the action.
Why not just say that a Creature Action Phase and Activation are the same thing?
Or even better: why not avoid using a fuzzy definition of Activation (how long does that last?) and just use Creature Action Phase instead?
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Activation
During the Action Phase, players take turns acting
with their creatures. When you choose a creature
to act with, you activate it. When a creature takes
its turn to act, it is called an activation.
I find that is a rather fuzzy definition it could still mean that an action is preceded by an activation instead of an activation containing the action.
Why not just say that a Creature Action Phase and Activation are the same thing?
Or even better: why not avoid using a fuzzy definition of Activation (how long does that last?) and just use Creature Action Phase instead?
I'm not sure how this is fuzzy....
Activation is not a state of being, its a commitment to a creature taking its turn and allowing a moment for effects to occur as noted in the rules:
"Note: As soon as you activate a creature and flip its action marker, your opponent can reveal any hidden enchantments (see “Revealing Enchantments” on page 18). You must give your opponent a chance to reveal his enchantments before you decide which action you want to take with your creature."
Lets look at it with another card, [mwcard=DNE03]Stumble[/mwcard]. When this creature activates you have the option to reveal stumble. If you don't then you have missed the activation window.
If it said "during this mages turn" then it could be anytime, but the wording on Activation leads me to believe that the cowl only triggers when you activate your mage and before you declare any actions
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Well that is the discussion here.
I agree with your interpretation, but others in this thread believe you can cast a creature and still be in your activation and therefore they believe you can put a guard token on that creature with the Packleader's Cowl.
If they are right, then I suggest that the Codex definition of Activation is changed to clearly state that the action is part of the activation and hence the Activation and Creature Action Phase are really one and the same thing.
If you and I are right, the codex could perhaps avoid questions like the one from the OP by adding a sentence that a Creature Action Phase consists of an activation and an action.
Looking at this thread somehow there appears to be confusion.
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Activate = verb. the act of Activating a creature, consisting entirely of flipping over the creature's Action Marker to indicate it has begun an Action Phase. (also remove the guard marker if it has one)
That's basically the game term in a nut shell. It doesn't last for any length of time at all. A creature has either been activated or it hasn't, and there is no time period during the act of Activating a creature in which you could do anything else. After Activating a creature though, it is in the midst of an Activation (noun) until it's Action Phase ends, i.e. it's Activation is equal to the time it is Active. Basically, Donovan is correct that an Activation is synonymous with an Action Phase.
So, since an Activation is synonymous with Action Phase, why didn't they choose to write Action Phase instead? Very simple. All of our previous conversation was in regards to Mage Wars Arena because that's the context in which the question was posted. However, this card was released in Academy and despite many similarities, Academy is a different game from Arena. Action Phase actually means an entirely different thing in it. There are not separate Action Phases for each creature, or even for each mage in Academy. There is only one Action Phase during which the players take turns Activating creatures. So, the terms are not synonymous in that game. This is covered in the Academy Rulebook pages 8 and 9. So saying "During this Mage's Action Phase" would have been gibberish in Academy.
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Thanks for the clarification.
I suggest this finds its place into the Codex 3.1, because I think to some players the word Activation could intuitively mean "the act of making your creature active" - or flipping its action marker.
The Codex describes the verb Activate. This has been clearly described as the act of choosing a creature, flipping its action marker and removing the guard token. This is in line with what you said above. It does not include the actual action, but describes the beginning of a Creature Action Phase.
But according to the ruling above, the noun Activation is not the thing that happens while Activating. Instead, the Activation is synonymous with the complete Creature Action Phase. The noun is not in the codex, although I think it plays at least the same important role as the verb Activate - if not more important.
Because I think in terms of semantics this might be counter-intuitive to some players, my suggestion is to include the noun Activation in the Codex as well, describing it as a synonym for the entire Creature Action Phase and indicating the Activation is started by Activating your creature.
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An entry in the Codex may be warranted. In the mean time, to point you towards support in the existing documentation:
Page 9 of the Academy book clearly defines an Activation as when a Creature takes an Action.
Arena cards and rules don't tend to reference Activation, preferring instead to use Action Phase as you're familiar with. Page 11 of the Arena rules though does describe an Activation as "First, choose a creature and activate it: Flip over its action marker to the inactive side, and remove its guard marker (if any). Now you are ready to act with it! Choose one of the 3 options below. Your creature can either:" Take a move + quick action, take a full action, or do nothing.
It is a bit more ambiguous in its wording, but you should interpret all of that, i.e. the entire Action Phase, as the Activation. The description doesn't completely exclude interpretation as just meaning Activating the creature, but such an interpretation wouldn't make sense as that doesn't provide any opportunity to do anything else. As soon as you're done flipping the Action Marker, you've activated the creature. There's just no time during that to do anything else as it starts and ends with the Action Marker being flipped. The only interpretation that makes sense is that the entirety of the text, including acting with the creature, is describing an Activation, which also aligns much better with it's more obvious meaning within Academy.
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So when you double move as the beastmaster, your turn immediately ends after the second move. Can you double move and use the cowl?
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So when you double move as the beastmaster, your turn immediately ends after the second move. Can you double move and use the cowl?
I think the second move is just your choice of quick action. It's treated like any other quick action. So if you're allowed to, say, move + quick melee attack followed by Packleader's Cowl, then I can't see why you couldn't double-move followed by Packleader's Cowl.
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An entry in the Codex may be warranted. In the mean time, to point you towards support in the existing documentation:
Page 9 of the Academy book clearly defines an Activation as when a Creature takes an Action.
Arena cards and rules don't tend to reference Activation, preferring instead to use Action Phase as you're familiar with. Page 11 of the Arena rules though does describe an Activation as "First, choose a creature and activate it: Flip over its action marker to the inactive side, and remove its guard marker (if any). Now you are ready to act with it! Choose one of the 3 options below. Your creature can either:" Take a move + quick action, take a full action, or do nothing.
It is a bit more ambiguous in its wording, but you should interpret all of that, i.e. the entire Action Phase, as the Activation. The description doesn't completely exclude interpretation as just meaning Activating the creature, but such an interpretation wouldn't make sense as that doesn't provide any opportunity to do anything else. As soon as you're done flipping the Action Marker, you've activated the creature. There's just no time during that to do anything else as it starts and ends with the Action Marker being flipped. The only interpretation that makes sense is that the entirety of the text, including acting with the creature, is describing an Activation, which also aligns much better with it's more obvious meaning within Academy.
I understand your point. I'm just saying that I think it might be an understandable mistake if players believe activation and activating are the same thing. That would be a logical and intuitive way of thinking I think.
But as you outlined, in Arena Activation means the entire Creature Action Phase, while Activate is the act of choosing the creature, flipping its action marker and removing its guard token.
Something like this:
Begin Action Stage
First Quickcast Phase
Begin Creature Action Phase
Quickcast Action
Begin Activation
Activating (uninterruptible)
Choose creature
Flip Action Marker
Remove Guard token (if any)
Action(s)
End Activation
Quickcast Action
End Creature Action Phase
Next Creature Action Phase
Next Creature Action Phase
...
Last Creature Action Phase
Final Quickcast Phase
End Action Stage
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An entry in the Codex may be warranted. In the mean time, to point you towards support in the existing documentation:
Page 9 of the Academy book clearly defines an Activation as when a Creature takes an Action.
Arena cards and rules don't tend to reference Activation, preferring instead to use Action Phase as you're familiar with. Page 11 of the Arena rules though does describe an Activation as "First, choose a creature and activate it: Flip over its action marker to the inactive side, and remove its guard marker (if any). Now you are ready to act with it! Choose one of the 3 options below. Your creature can either:" Take a move + quick action, take a full action, or do nothing.
It is a bit more ambiguous in its wording, but you should interpret all of that, i.e. the entire Action Phase, as the Activation. The description doesn't completely exclude interpretation as just meaning Activating the creature, but such an interpretation wouldn't make sense as that doesn't provide any opportunity to do anything else. As soon as you're done flipping the Action Marker, you've activated the creature. There's just no time during that to do anything else as it starts and ends with the Action Marker being flipped. The only interpretation that makes sense is that the entirety of the text, including acting with the creature, is describing an Activation, which also aligns much better with it's more obvious meaning within Academy.
Zuberi taking us to school again! :P
So over simplification in Arena: Activate -> pause for enemy reveal option -> Mages Activation / Action phase ( i.e. turn) -> End Turn / Activation / Action Phase
Which would mean that Conjurations like ToL happen after a creature has been selected for activation but before it takes its action ya?
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From the way I understand it, an Activation lasts from the time you Activate the creature until the time you finish acting with the creature. Which is the exact same thing as the creature's Action Phase. With that understanding, let's address these questions:
So when you double move as the beastmaster, your turn immediately ends after the second move. Can you double move and use the cowl?
I don't believe so, though the documentation doesn't go into a lot of detail on when exactly your Activation/Action Phase ends. Page 9 of the Arena Rules has this to say: "When the creature’s actions are complete, resolve any effects that occur at the end of its Action Phase...After resolving any of these effects, the creature’s Action Phase is over" This is mostly referring to removing conditions like Stun and Daze, but indicates that your Activation/Action Phase does continue for a little while after you're done taking actions. Thus, I would think that you can still use the Packleader's Cowl after finishing your actions, and would go by the general principal that your Activation/Action Phase ends when you say it does; when you say you're done using the creature.
Begin Creature Action Phase
Quickcast Action
Begin Activation
Activating (uninterruptible)
Choose creature
Flip Action Marker
Remove Guard token (if any)
Action(s)
End Activation
Quickcast Action
End Creature Action Phase
Not quite. It should be a chance to Quickcast followed by Begin Activation/Action Phase. And it should end as End Activation/Action Phase followed by another chance to Quickcast. Quickcast happens before/after the Action Phase, not during.
So over simplification in Arena: Activate -> pause for enemy reveal option -> Mages Activation / Action phase ( i.e. turn) -> End Turn / Activation / Action Phase
Which would mean that Conjurations like ToL happen after a creature has been selected for activation but before it takes its action ya?
Conjurations like Temple of Light happen before/after a creature's Activation/Action Phase, just like Quickcast Actions, so if you want to use one beforehand, you'd use it before Activating the creature.
I really really think people are over thinking this and complicating matters much more than they need be. A creature's Activation is just synonymous with their Action Phase. Everybody seemed to understand how Action Phases worked before this thread, and they have not changed. This is just another word to reference them, which was only used due to the differences between Academy and Arena. Nothing has actually changed.
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I really really think people are over thinking this and complicating matters much more than they need be.
Most definitely,
The question came to be a "when does action phase" start; which is answered by "When you activate a creature and until the phase ends as per normal." Which is clearly stated at the end of that section where the clarification on when you can use a mages quickcast action
Stumbles unusual timing trigger had me thinking there was a difference between the two and there isn't, just opportunity for enemy to reveal
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From the way I understand it, an Activation lasts from the time you Activate the creature until the time you finish acting with the creature. Which is the exact same thing as the creature's Action Phase. With that understanding, let's address these questions:
So when you double move as the beastmaster, your turn immediately ends after the second move. Can you double move and use the cowl?
I don't believe so, though the documentation doesn't go into a lot of detail on when exactly your Activation/Action Phase ends. Page 9 of the Arena Rules has this to say: "When the creature’s actions are complete, resolve any effects that occur at the end of its Action Phase...After resolving any of these effects, the creature’s Action Phase is over" This is mostly referring to removing conditions like Stun and Daze, but indicates that your Activation/Action Phase does continue for a little while after you're done taking actions. Thus, I would think that you can still use the Packleader's Cowl after finishing your actions, and would go by the general principal that your Activation/Action Phase ends when you say it does; when you say you're done using the creature.
This is definitely how I see it. Your explanation holds up with how I imagine the rest of the game handles, and makes the most sense to me. Thanks
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Not quite. It should be a chance to Quickcast followed by Begin Activation/Action Phase. And it should end as End Activation/Action Phase followed by another chance to Quickcast. Quickcast happens before/after the Action Phase, not during.
OK, all clear. Here is for the archives:
Begin Action Stage
First Quickcast Phase (1st mage with initiative / 2nd other mage)
Opportunity for Quickcast Action (mage who is taking his turn for an activation)
Begin Creature Action Phase
Begin Activation
Activating (uninterruptible)
Choose creature
Flip Action Marker
Remove Guard token (if any)
Action(s)
End Activation
End Creature Action Phase
Opportunity for Quickcast Action (mage who took his turn for an activation)
Opportunity for Quickcast Action (mage who is taking his turn for an activation)
Next Creature Action Phase
Opportunity for Quickcast Action (mage who took his turn for an activation)
Opportunity for Quickcast Action (mage who is taking his turn for an activation)
Next Creature Action Phase
Opportunity for Quickcast Action (mage who took his turn for an activation)
...
Opportunity for Quickcast Action (mage who is taking his turn for an activation)
Last Creature Action Phase
Opportunity for Quickcast Action (mage who took his turn for an activation)
Final Quickcast Phase (1st mage with initiative / 2nd other mage)
End Action Stage
Hence Activation and Creature Action Phase are synonyms.
I really really think people are over thinking this and complicating matters much more than they need be. A creature's Activation is just synonymous with their Action Phase. Everybody seemed to understand how Action Phases worked before this thread, and they have not changed. This is just another word to reference them, which was only used due to the differences between Academy and Arena. Nothing has actually changed.
To be frank, I don't think that is entirely fair to the OP and others in this thread and other threads who did not intuitively interpret Activation and Activating the way it is supposed to be. I have not studied English, but I believe it cannot be considered a mistake when somebody expects an Activation to be the thing that happens while Activating (like a flight is what happens while flying or a creation is what happens while creating). However, this misunderstanding based on ones intuition leads to a totally different effect of the Packleader's Cowl.
Hence my request to add Activation as a synonym for Creature Action Phase to the Codex alongside with Activate, which is already there - describing the kickoff process of an Activation. This should avoid discussions like we had in this thread.
I'm not too familiar with all the roles of people in this forum and who is who. Is there an official way to request such an addition to the Codex? Or will it be picked up automatically from this thread?
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To be frank, I don't think that is entirely fair to the OP and others in this thread and other threads who did not intuitively interpret Activation and Activating the way it is supposed to be. I have not studied English, but I believe it cannot be considered a mistake when somebody expects an Activation to be the thing that happens while Activating (like a flight is what happens while flying or a creation is what happens while creating). However, this misunderstanding based on ones intuition leads to a totally different effect of the Packleader's Cowl.
Hence my request to add Activation as a synonym for Creature Action Phase to the Codex alongside with Activate, which is already there - describing the kickoff process of an Activation. This should avoid discussions like we had in this thread.
I'm not too familiar with all the roles of people in this forum and who is who. Is there an official way to request such an addition to the Codex? Or will it be picked up automatically from this thread?
I apologize if I gave any offense. I completely understand how people may not have realized that they are synonyms, and my intention was simply to stress that such is what they are. Activation doesn't mean anything new and doesn't work any differently than what we are already used to. It's just a term we're not used to seeing.
Regarding the roles of people on the forums, you can see their position listed under their name (possibly under a self description). Only people with the position of Administrator are likely to be Arcane Wonders employees, and I'm not certain if all of them are. Playtesters and Ambassadors are not employees, but do tend to work closely with them. Even if an AW representative doesn't respond to a thread though, they are closely monitored and I'm sure your request has already been heard. The best channel to make such requests though is in the Player Feedback and Suggestions section of the forums.
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Being the OP of this thread I feel obliged to state that I never took any offense from any reply in this thread. I started this thread to have my understanding of the card's effect be affirmed. The answers of Puddnhead and Zuberi did just that. I also never found the wording confusing, but after reading the replies to this thread I think I have an idea of why someone could find it confusing. In the end this is more an issue of foreign language than imprecise wording. So I don't think clarification is actually needed because native speakers will easily get the meaning -- that's as precise as one could wish for IMHO.
I could imagine that AW is considering adding clarification nevertheless because they care so much for the game and the people playing it. That is exactly what makes Mage Wars so great and stand out from other games out there. Thank you very much for that Arcane Wonders!
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I apologize if I gave any offense. I completely understand how people may not have realized that they are synonyms, and my intention was simply to stress that such is what they are. Activation doesn't mean anything new and doesn't work any differently than what we are already used to. It's just a term we're not used to seeing.
Regarding the roles of people on the forums, you can see their position listed under their name (possibly under a self description). Only people with the position of Administrator are likely to be Arcane Wonders employees, and I'm not certain if all of them are. Playtesters and Ambassadors are not employees, but do tend to work closely with them. Even if an AW representative doesn't respond to a thread though, they are closely monitored and I'm sure your request has already been heard. The best channel to make such requests though is in the Player Feedback and Suggestions section of the forums.
No offense taken Zuberi. I was just worried that the need for clarification in the codex was explained off the table. I think sometimes it is harder for an expert to realize that something would be a great addition to the Codex. Whereas when you completely misunderstood a concept based on your understanding of languistics, you find it hard to understand why somebody would not be eager to add it. =;-)
I agree with Tyrann that MW is an awesome game. A strive for perfection should not be perceived as criticism though. I think it is not a bad attitude when one strives to update cards, rules, codex and supplements in such a way that you can play the game without having questions. Answering a question is important, but avoiding the question should be as important in my view.
Hope you see my remarks in that light as well.