Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Resources and Downloads => Topic started by: Laddinfance on July 05, 2016, 04:42:40 PM
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Just posted >>THIS<< (http://www.arcanewonders.com/arcane-wonders/wizard-ability-card-and-wizards-tower-errata) about changes to the Wizard and Wizard's Tower. I've linked PDFs of the current versions. I'm working to get them on the Resources and Downloads page. Thank you.
Link to Errata (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/epjrlqlgou45gd7/AADfaBlVIxIsT1x7_w-4zZgBa?dl=0)
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Wow. Didn't see that: "The Wizard no longer picks an element to be trained in. Now he is trained only in Arcane and Air" coming :o. That is more drastic than I would have expected. I undestand the reasoning though and I thinkg I like it :-\.
I definitely like the nerf of the wizards tower. Keeps the spirit of the card but takes away the extreme SP effifiency.
Thank you Laddinface. I hope this puts an end to the neverending "Wizard is OP/not OP" discussions ...
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Wow. Didn't see that: "The Wizard no longer picks an element to be trained in. Now he is trained only in Arcane and Air" coming :o. That is more drastic than I would have expected. I undestand the reasoning though and I thinkg I like it :-\.
I definitely like the nerf of the wizards tower. Keeps the spirit of the card but takes away the extreme SP effifiency.
Thank you Laddinface. I hope this puts an end to the neverending "Wizard is OP/not OP" discussions ...
I am so sad. I really feel like the wizard elemental nurf is anoying. I really liked his versatively. Wizard is now not very interesting for me. For example, both last year's gen con finalists books would be way over with the current errata. I wish he would have been limited to certain levels or certain schools, rather than just air. I completely, trust your judgement Laddin, but this errata eliminates so many kinds of strategies.
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I have to say, we discuss this for many hours and probably days in our gaming group. I see a great courage to implement these changes, if you realize how long was Wizard as it is. They (AW) have a courage to try to change something that was here from the beginning! And it was not an easy decision.
I was always a "wiseguy" when comes to any decision or change in everythin in which i really dont have to bear the responsibility. Latly, i experienced lot in real life, and i think i can say, that i deeply respect this changes and motives behind them.
It makes me happy to be part of Mage Wars and to be a fan of products of Arcane Wonders ;)
Wizard is dead, long live the Wizard!
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Definitely more drastic than i expected. I'm not sure I agree with getting rid of the other elemental wizards. Sharing a school with another mage does not mean that it will steal that mage's tricks, so to speak. Just as the druid and the beastmaster do not conflict with each other's playstyles. And I've always thought of the wizard as four different mages with their own styles, not one mage with flexibility granted to him by his choice of school. I'm very interested in hearing not only why you guys chose this solution, but why you think that it's the optimal solution out of all other possibilities.
Might there ever be other arcane mages trained in a different elemental school?
Wizard is dead
I should hope not. I'm pretty sure that's not the intent of these nerfs.
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Wizard is dead
I should hope not. I'm pretty sure that's not the intent of these nerfs.
I hope i didnt use this wrongly : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_king_is_dead,_long_live_the_king! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_king_is_dead,_long_live_the_king!)
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I absolutely agree Sailor. This is such a drastic change, tower is fine in my opioun, but the wizard nerf is over the top in my opioun. Also, isn't the point of the wizard to be a jack of a trades? Do we need a wizard who is limited.
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Give it a chance :)
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Give it a chance :)
It's just the thing is, I don't think that this change is what anyone was calling for. To my knowledge, no one said, "make wizard limited to only one element."
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My random thoughts on these changes.
I'm very curious how this will impact the game. I could see how the Wizard from the beginning has maybe slowed the development of other mages.
I think this might be better in the long run because it now allows for more development of the arcane and air school to make the wizard even more unique than he was.
With the siren coming out soon and pretty much a water only trained school this would of made the wizard even more crazy powerful. Will miss the choice and surprise of playing wizards. It is sad and exciting at the same time to see what happens next.
I think too this still does not totally stop people using outside of school spells.
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I like this idea of different Wizards focused in a different element with maybe unique ability card. This could help with balance of the Wizards abilities and offer some choice and balance.
Definitely more drastic than i expected. I'm not sure I agree with getting rid of the other elemental wizards. Sharing a school with another mage does not mean that it will steal that mage's tricks, so to speak. Just as the druid and the beastmaster do not conflict with each other's playstyles. And I've always thought of the wizard as four different mages with their own styles, not one mage with flexibility granted to him by his choice of school. I'm very interested in hearing not only why you guys chose this solution, but why you think that it's the optimal solution out of all other possibilities.
Might there ever be other arcane mages trained in a different elemental school?
Wizard is dead
I should hope not. I'm pretty sure that's not the intent of these nerfs.
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Having worked on every Mage Wars expansion to date, the Wizard has become a larger and larger design constrain while building new mages. This was the cleanest way to limit his constraint, while not impacting the core of his play. This errata is not meant as a direct curb on his power. It is however a way for us to open up design in the future.
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Also, isn't the point of the wizard to be a jack of a trades? Do we need a wizard who is limited.
No, Wizard wasn't supposed to be jack of all trades but a trickster.
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I'm surprised that WT didn't get Zone Exclusive.
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Also, isn't the point of the wizard to be a jack of a trades? Do we need a wizard who is limited.
No, Wizard wasn't supposed to be jack of all trades but a trickster.
Right.
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Also, Wizard still has the most flexible toolkit. Priority access to Arcane and no triple cost still gives him the best "jack of all trades" pool to build from. He just has to be a little more judicious with his budget.
All that really changes is that the Wizard cannot as easily keep cherry picking the meta at any given time to stay with whatever element is best at the moment or coat tail on EVERY mage that comes out with any of the 4 elemental schools.
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I like this idea of different Wizards focused in a different element with maybe unique ability card. This could help with balance of the Wizards abilities and offer some choice and balance.
Definitely more drastic than i expected. I'm not sure I agree with getting rid of the other elemental wizards. Sharing a school with another mage does not mean that it will steal that mage's tricks, so to speak. Just as the druid and the beastmaster do not conflict with each other's playstyles. And I've always thought of the wizard as four different mages with their own styles, not one mage with flexibility granted to him by his choice of school. I'm very interested in hearing not only why you guys chose this solution, but why you think that it's the optimal solution out of all other possibilities.
Might there ever be other arcane mages trained in a different elemental school?
Wizard is dead
I should hope not. I'm pretty sure that's not the intent of these nerfs.
While neat, it is the very problem that has been addressed.
Yesterday the wizard had an incredible advantage in the construction of his spell books. He could focus on one element at a premium and then pay normal rate for the others. It was not the intention for him to be 4 mages; just the wizard.
Today the above state is still true. He receives arcane & air at a premium and all other spells at the normal rate. He is still the mack daddy jack of all trades because he does not have a x3 cost.
What this does now is give the warlord a unique premium in the game now; This now gives Warlocks a unique premium in the game now; Siren will have a unique premium with Druid having a little one step in her pond. A hurl meteor sized burden has been lifted from the design lens. Earth Mage Only no longer means wizard. That's huge and in a very good way!
The old wizard mage ability card even has the air symbol next to his arcane symbol.
*Damn you beat me to it Baron*
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yep I totally agree. Now you guys can focus on designing and expand the arcane school which is already awesome but now offer more unqiuness without upsetting the game balance so much with each new expansion.
Having worked on every Mage Wars expansion to date, the Wizard has become a larger and larger design constrain while building new mages. This was the cleanest way to limit his constraint, while not impacting the core of his play. This errata is not meant as a direct curb on his power. It is however a way for us to open up design in the future.
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I absolutely agree Sailor. This is such a drastic change, tower is fine in my opioun, but the wizard nerf is over the top in my opioun. Also, isn't the point of the wizard to be a jack of a trades? Do we need a wizard who is limited.
Since when was wizards jack of all trades?
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I like this idea of different Wizards focused in a different element with maybe unique ability card. This could help with balance of the Wizards abilities and offer some choice and balance.
Definitely more drastic than i expected. I'm not sure I agree with getting rid of the other elemental wizards. Sharing a school with another mage does not mean that it will steal that mage's tricks, so to speak. Just as the druid and the beastmaster do not conflict with each other's playstyles. And I've always thought of the wizard as four different mages with their own styles, not one mage with flexibility granted to him by his choice of school. I'm very interested in hearing not only why you guys chose this solution, but why you think that it's the optimal solution out of all other possibilities.
Might there ever be other arcane mages trained in a different elemental school?
Wizard is dead
I should hope not. I'm pretty sure that's not the intent of these nerfs.
While neat, it is the very problem that has been addressed.
Yesterday the wizard had an incredible advantage in the construction of his spell books. He could focus on one element at a premium and then pay normal rate for the others. It was not the intention for him to be 4 mages; just the wizard.
Today the above state is still true. He receives arcane & air at a premium and all other spells at the normal rate. He is still the mack daddy jack of all trades because he does not have a x3 cost.
What this does now is give the warlord a unique premium in the game now; This now gives Warlocks a unique premium in the game now; Siren will have a unique premium with Druid having a little one step in her pond. A hurl meteor sized burden has been lifted from the design lens. Earth Mage Only no longer means wizard. That's huge and in a very good way!
The old wizard mage ability card even has the air symbol next to his arcane symbol.
*Damn you beat me to it Baron*
There are'nt many earth mage only cards, if any.
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I think the Wizard Card errata is a good direction. Really does open up current mages more and leaves room for future classes. And it's very true that a _____ Wizard could very much take strategies and non-exclusive spells from nearly any other mage that has an elemental training (Warlock's Fire, Warlord's Earth, etc). Good to see that copying another mage will come at a much more reasonable cost.
As for the Tower, I did always think it was a rather OP in more than one detail, but only time will tell if the new method is the right direction.
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I absolutely agree Sailor. This is such a drastic change, tower is fine in my opioun, but the wizard nerf is over the top in my opioun. Also, isn't the point of the wizard to be a jack of a trades? Do we need a wizard who is limited.
Since when was wizards jack of all trades?
That was a misstype.
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There are'nt many earth mage only cards, if any.
Nope and anytime <insert element> only comes up the wizard is the first under the lens.
For example, an "earth mage only" card can theoretically be designed to specifically nudge the warlord in the right places / further improve on the earth school thematically instead of also being forced to be "warlord / war mage only" to prevent having to try and take into account the wizard having earth and all the combinations that come from that.
As a general rule of thumb: The fewer "mage archetype only" and the more "school only" cards the better.
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Give it a chance :)
It's just the thing is, I don't think that this change is what anyone was calling for. To my knowledge, no one said, "make wizard limited to only one element."
The main problems with the wizard was his efficiency with spellpoints and ability to cherry pick the card pool, taking the best tricks available unless specifically blocked from it by "X Mage Only" traits. The two most popular suggestions to fix this were actually to give him a weak school to pay triple points for, or to limit his elemental training. AW opted for the latter. It actually has the least impact on him and simultaneously opens up more design space for other mages than the alternative would have. It's a good decision in my opinion.
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Ok. I overreacted. My fault, I apoligize. I wonder if this means there are no air mages planned?
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A while back a one of the designers mentioned a shaman with air school focus. Not sure where the development is on that.
Ok. I overreacted. My fault, I apoligize. I wonder if this means there are no air mages planned?
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I absolutely agree Sailor. This is such a drastic change, tower is fine in my opioun, but the wizard nerf is over the top in my opioun. Also, isn't the point of the wizard to be a jack of a trades? Do we need a wizard who is limited.
That was DEFINITELY NOT the point of the wizard!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I absolutely agree Sailor. This is such a drastic change, tower is fine in my opioun, but the wizard nerf is over the top in my opioun. Also, isn't the point of the wizard to be a jack of a trades? Do we need a wizard who is limited.
That was DEFINITELY NOT the point of the wizard!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Again, a mis quote. I did not intend to sound or mean like that.
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I absolutely agree Sailor. This is such a drastic change, tower is fine in my opioun, but the wizard nerf is over the top in my opioun. Also, isn't the point of the wizard to be a jack of a trades? Do we need a wizard who is limited.
That was DEFINITELY NOT the point of the wizard!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Keep it calm Sailor. No need to heighten the tension.
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Give it a chance :)
It's just the thing is, I don't think that this change is what anyone was calling for. To my knowledge, no one said, "make wizard limited to only one element."
The main problems with the wizard was his efficiency with spellpoints and ability to cherry pick the card pool, taking the best tricks available unless specifically blocked from it by "X Mage Only" traits. The two most popular suggestions to fix this were actually to give him a weak school to pay triple points for, or to limit his elemental training. AW opted for the latter. It actually has the least impact on him and simultaneously opens up more design space for other mages than the alternative would have. It's a good decision in my opinion.
^^ This.
Interestingly, I don't think these errata have any impact on my currently built Wizard books. Well, except that Wizard's Tower doesn't have Spellbind anymore, so I'll want to find room for a few more copies of key attack spells.
No more "could be Water or Earth or Fire because it comes out to the same spell point cost in any of those cases" non-Air Wizard jack-of-all-trades books anymore. This "constraint" might actually make Wizard building more interesting again, and will certainly get Lightning Ring / Circle of Lightning / Gale Force Ring / Staff of Storms in play more often.
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Thank you Arcane Wonders! Sincerely. I feel as though this last round of wizard hate got particularly heated and i got just as wrapped up in it as any of us did and not only did you say you were looking into it actively, but you dropped the fix almost right after. Before i even say anything about the changes in general id like to say thank you as a player, for hearing us. It couldn't have been an easy choice and we weren't being very nice anymore by the end of it all, and you guys took it all in stride and then fixed it on your terms and time line.
Now onto the changes!
Firstly the wizard training fox was a nice choice! It doesn't cripple the wizard too much as he still has 2 in schools, and he still only pays double for anything else. Looks much more like the other mages now and I'm very pleased!
Secondly the tower went even a little farther than i was expecting! In reality its probably the most functional way to fix that card as now the action economy is still there, but at a constant SP cost, thus making every attack spell count again. Very well done!
Thirdly you've also added another mage with no trip school, effectively ending the wizard's reign in all three categories! Bravo and thank you once again. I feel better!
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I absolutely agree Sailor. This is such a drastic change, tower is fine in my opioun, but the wizard nerf is over the top in my opioun. Also, isn't the point of the wizard to be a jack of a trades? Do we need a wizard who is limited.
That was DEFINITELY NOT the point of the wizard!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Keep it calm Sailor. No need to heighten the tension.
Sorry, I was feeling kind of lazy and used all caps for emphasis instead of italics. Didn't mean to sound like I was shouting.
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I figured you weren't trying to exacerbate things, but I just wanted to keep you honest.
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Ohhhhh boy. Ok I'm gonna speak now on this. First before I say anything else I want to congratulate Laddinface for having the courage to make this decision and post it 30 days before the biggest event in American gaming.
Now I'm going to explain my thoughts and my position on this. In short: I'm not a huge fan of the wizard change. The tower I could give two flips about, I eat those things for breakfast and I play against pretty skilled players. The training change however I felt was a little over much, but then I've never been anywhere near the "Wizards are OP" train of thought. But ok for the sake of argument a little modification needs to be made, I still think there were better options. I'm not the lead designer though so I didn't give a whole lot of thought to such changes. Laddinface is and Laddinface did give those thoughts.
That's where I shift gears actually. Laddinface. He's the one among us who makes tough calls like this. Oh yeah I know he's the big boss but he's close enough for government work from the creative side. I know what it's like to be "the guy" in charge of big stuff. I run fundraisers and charity events on a regular basis and if there's one thing I can tell you for certain about being the guy in charge it's this: You'll get second guessed no matter what. You'll second guess yourself more than anything most likely. But anyway I've met Laddinface in person, I was Gen Con Judge last year too and got to work with him. He's a good man with an insane intellect. He's already designed some of the best sets we have and he's never let us down as players. If you need any more proof on that then go buy Paladin vs Siren when it comes out, sets amazing. I'm a play tester sure but he's the lead designer and he's done a fantastic job so far. So I'm willing to accept that he knows what he's doing in the long run and I'm willing to take it on faith that he's not going to steer us wrong. Even if I don't personally like this decision I can accept that it was made by someone more qualified than myself and that it was done for a good reason.
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I'm not 100% sure the training does enough to tone down the Wizard, as he and the Siren are still the only mages without a triple cost school, and his abilities are still tops in terms of power level and usefulness. Wizard's Tower nerf is big, though, as it means a Tower-based Wizard has to put some points into his toolbox of attack spells, not just include 1-2 of each of a wide variety of spells. In fact, he might be more likely to run an Elemental Wand to save on sbp's on the attack spells he casts himself since his Tower is going to be burning through sbp's at a much higher rate.
There are a lot of interesting consequences to the training change, though. Others have pointed out how it indirectly makes the Warlock and Warlord and Siren better, since they're the only mages specialized in Fire, Earth and Water, respectively. This means Hurl Meteorite and Golem Pit are now much more likely to be in a Warlord's book than a Wizard's book - although a Wizard could still pull it off, just not cheaper than a Warlord anymore. In other words, a Wizard is no longer a better Warlock than the Warlock, or a better Warlord than the Warlord, or a better Siren than the Siren. But he can still dabble in those things, or specialize in Air (and currently be the only mage who does).
This also means that Dragonscale Hauberk just got a lot worse - or at least, less of a must-have in multiple copies in every book. Before, there were more Fire mages than any other element (well, except Earth, but Warlord isn't as popular as Warlock in most Arena metas and Earth doesn't have a damage type so your choice of chestpiece isn't relevant vs Earth). Given that you could face either Warlock or the possibility of a Fire Wizard meant you should preferentially choose Dragonscale. Of course, even a Water or Earth Wizard generally sports a few Fireballs and/or Flameblasts, and an Air Wizard may very well continue to do so, but at least Fireballs are less likely to be spammed from the Wizard's Tower. And since the Wizard has training in Air, suddenly Wind Wyvern Hide and Stormdrake Hide are much more viable. For an armor-heavy mage, I could see having 2x Dragonscale, 1x Wind Wyvern and 1x Stormdrake... or just whatever's in school (except maybe Bearskin) and a couple Elemental Cloaks because they're versatile.
So... yeah... the other elemental schools just got "stronger" because all mages feel a little more specialized (and various strategies now have homes outside the Wizard), and thus all the non-Dragonscale chestpieces just became more relevant. All from a pretty subtle change.
(I still think the Tower is the bigger change here. A Wizard can still pack a pretty diverse toolbox; just swap Lightning Spells into an old Fire Wizard book and not much changes - except he gets better at countering swarms because Daze/Stun/Stagger, at the cost of a little bit of raw damage).
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One thing that not everyone may have realized is that by losing spellbind Wizard Tower can't be used the same turn it was cast.
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I really like this Errata.
Fixing the Wizard's Tower and its ability to basically be a source of unlimited attack spells was a good target for nerfs. And I do believe this won't hit tower to hard in terms of what the card costs.
The Wizard being trained in Air and Arcane seems good to me, it might be too early to tell but it feels like it's the natural way to limit the big books that you were able to build when you could choose an element.
I think this is a really good change since this should knock the Wizard of his throne while still not making him a bad mage.
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It seems to me like the octgn meta has been getting more chronically stale over the past couple years. Too many spellbooks that are too similar to each other and too generic. I hope these errata fix that! A lot of my favorite online Mage Wars players have left the game. A couple of past Mage Wars players seemed to be trickling back onto octgn one point within the past couple weeks, but I haven't seen them online since.
murphy, johansson, charmyna, jacksmack, that one dude who beat charmyna with a forcemaster a long time ago whose username I can't remember. I used to have a really long list of online mage wars buddies. Now almost none of them play on octgn anymore.
It seems to be getting better again though, but I guess it remains to be seen whether Octgn mage wars will ever be as popular as it once was.
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Well now that I think more about it, this eratta helps deal with tons of acid balls/ hurl rocks. Before, a high armor creature could be acid balled by the tower, then triple hurl rocked while 1 of each of those spells goes back into your book. And know, there will be more counters to knights of westlock and brogan (lightning +2) I wonder why no one used air, from what I can tell, its not not mana efficient.
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Well now that I think more about it, this eratta helps deal with tons of acid balls/ hurl rocks. Before, a high armor creature could be acid balled by the tower, then triple hurl rocked while 1 of each of those spells goes back into your book.
Without trying to sound disrespectful - any 1 spending 17 mana and 4 actions should be more than welcome to do so.
The only problem in this case is that you dont let them kill the creature.... not all creatures you summon needs to survive. If the opponent spends a ridiculous amount of resources on destroying a creature, then let them.
Similar to people who double surge wave your forge round 2 after it gets to deploy once... the solution is not to armor it up or protect it better in the next game. Just recast it round 3 and continue with what your doing.
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Well now that I think more about it, this eratta helps deal with tons of acid balls/ hurl rocks. Before, a high armor creature could be acid balled by the tower, then triple hurl rocked while 1 of each of those spells goes back into your book.
Without trying to sound disrespectful - any 1 spending 17 mana and 4 actions should be more than welcome to do so.
The only problem in this case is that you dont let them kill the creature.... not all creatures you summon needs to survive. If the opponent spends a ridiculous amount of resources on destroying a creature, then let them.
Similar to people who double surge wave your forge round 2 after it gets to deploy once... the solution is not to armor it up or protect it better in the next game. Just recast it round 3 and continue with what your doing.
I agree there spending a ton of mana. However before, the wizard's tower could just recast the same spells over again so they never run out. They could always strip the armor down or health down.
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Well now that I think more about it, this eratta helps deal with tons of acid balls/ hurl rocks. Before, a high armor creature could be acid balled by the tower, then triple hurl rocked while 1 of each of those spells goes back into your book.
Without trying to sound disrespectful - any 1 spending 17 mana and 4 actions should be more than welcome to do so.
The only problem in this case is that you dont let them kill the creature.... not all creatures you summon needs to survive. If the opponent spends a ridiculous amount of resources on destroying a creature, then let them.
Similar to people who double surge wave your forge round 2 after it gets to deploy once... the solution is not to armor it up or protect it better in the next game. Just recast it round 3 and continue with what your doing.
I agree there spending a ton of mana. However before, the wizard's tower could just recast the same spells over again so they never run out. They could always strip the armor down or health down.
Exactly. Before, if you cast a Battle Forge in a match against an Earth or Fire (or Water) Wizard, the Wizard would typically cast a Wizard's Tower and immediately Surging Wave's your Forge and then hard-cast another (or use some other attack) to finish it off. Are you really going to bring up another Forge on turn 3 when there's a Wizard's Tower with Surging Wave ready to strike again? The Wizard spent 2 sbp on the Tower, and 2 (or 1) on a Surging Wave that he'll get several uses out of (or swap it for a more useful attack spell from his limitless toolbox). Now at least each Surging Wave costs the (Air) Wizard 2 sbp and gets used up each time a Wizard's Tower casts it, so it's a much more limited resource, especially if it's just one attack spell in a toolbox of attack spells for various purposes.
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I like this idea of different Wizards focused in a different element with maybe unique ability card. This could help with balance of the Wizards abilities and offer some choice and balance.
Definitely more drastic than i expected. I'm not sure I agree with getting rid of the other elemental wizards. Sharing a school with another mage does not mean that it will steal that mage's tricks, so to speak. Just as the druid and the beastmaster do not conflict with each other's playstyles. And I've always thought of the wizard as four different mages with their own styles, not one mage with flexibility granted to him by his choice of school. I'm very interested in hearing not only why you guys chose this solution, but why you think that it's the optimal solution out of all other possibilities.
Might there ever be other arcane mages trained in a different elemental school?
Wizard is dead
I should hope not. I'm pretty sure that's not the intent of these nerfs.
While neat, it is the very problem that has been addressed.
Yesterday the wizard had an incredible advantage in the construction of his spell books. He could focus on one element at a premium and then pay normal rate for the others. It was not the intention for him to be 4 mages; just the wizard.
Today the above state is still true. He receives arcane & air at a premium and all other spells at the normal rate. He is still the mack daddy jack of all trades because he does not have a x3 cost.
What this does now is give the warlord a unique premium in the game now; This now gives Warlocks a unique premium in the game now; Siren will have a unique premium with Druid having a little one step in her pond. A hurl meteor sized burden has been lifted from the design lens. Earth Mage Only no longer means wizard. That's huge and in a very good way!
The old wizard mage ability card even has the air symbol next to his arcane symbol.
*Damn you beat me to it Baron*
Agree!
Since this is the first major errata I've experienced since starting this game I have to ask, will AW publish updated cards for sale so those of us with OCD can have accurate cards reflecting these changes?
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Agree!
Since this is the first major errata I've experienced since starting this game I have to ask, will AW publish updated cards for sale so those of us with OCD can have accurate cards reflecting these changes?
The next time either the Core Set or Conquest of Kumanjaro is reprinted that set will reflect these changes. As for single replacement cards, right now for us to print a single card is infeasible. That said, I'm working on the card files themselves so that we can have them posted on the website here, so you can print out your own updated version. I was actually speaking to another AW employee yesterday about the possibility of printing single cards for something like this. But at the moment no we do not have anything like that.
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Agree!
Since this is the first major errata I've experienced since starting this game I have to ask, will AW publish updated cards for sale so those of us with OCD can have accurate cards reflecting these changes?
The next time either the Core Set or Conquest of Kumanjaro is reprinted that set will reflect these changes. As for single replacement cards, right now for us to print a single card is infeasible. That said, I'm working on the card files themselves so that we can have them posted on the website here, so you can print out your own updated version. I was actually speaking to another AW employee yesterday about the possibility of printing single cards for something like this. But at the moment no we do not have anything like that.
It's basically the same as for anybody with 1st printing copies of Temple of Light, Battle Fury, Hand of Bim-Shalla, Malacoda, or any of the other cards that have had major or minor errata. You can still use your old cards, but refer to the most current text and Rules Supplement.
Speaking of which, hey Laddinfance, how soon should we expect an update to the Codex and Rules Supplement documents? ;)
(No rest for the wicked, right?)
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Agree!
Since this is the first major errata I've experienced since starting this game I have to ask, will AW publish updated cards for sale so those of us with OCD can have accurate cards reflecting these changes?
The next time either the Core Set or Conquest of Kumanjaro is reprinted that set will reflect these changes. As for single replacement cards, right now for us to print a single card is infeasible. That said, I'm working on the card files themselves so that we can have them posted on the website here, so you can print out your own updated version. I was actually speaking to another AW employee yesterday about the possibility of printing single cards for something like this. But at the moment no we do not have anything like that.
Couldn't the errata be added to future sets as well? It'd be a shame to have to buy another expansion or core for mage cards.
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Agree!
Since this is the first major errata I've experienced since starting this game I have to ask, will AW publish updated cards for sale so those of us with OCD can have accurate cards reflecting these changes?
The next time either the Core Set or Conquest of Kumanjaro is reprinted that set will reflect these changes. As for single replacement cards, right now for us to print a single card is infeasible. That said, I'm working on the card files themselves so that we can have them posted on the website here, so you can print out your own updated version. I was actually speaking to another AW employee yesterday about the possibility of printing single cards for something like this. But at the moment no we do not have anything like that.
It's basically the same as for anybody with 1st printing copies of Temple of Light, Battle Fury, Hand of Bim-Shalla, Malacoda, or any of the other cards that have had major or minor errata. You can still use your old cards, but refer to the most current text and Rules Supplement.
Speaking of which, hey Laddinfance, how soon should we expect an update to the Codex and Rules Supplement documents? ;)
(No rest for the wicked, right?)
No rest at all. I've actually been working on the supplement. I'm hoping to have something out in the next week or so, but it's tough to say. There shouldn't be anything really new in it, it's just going to be collecting everything together.
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Agree!
Since this is the first major errata I've experienced since starting this game I have to ask, will AW publish updated cards for sale so those of us with OCD can have accurate cards reflecting these changes?
The next time either the Core Set or Conquest of Kumanjaro is reprinted that set will reflect these changes. As for single replacement cards, right now for us to print a single card is infeasible. That said, I'm working on the card files themselves so that we can have them posted on the website here, so you can print out your own updated version. I was actually speaking to another AW employee yesterday about the possibility of printing single cards for something like this. But at the moment no we do not have anything like that.
Couldn't the errata be added to future sets as well? It'd be a shame to have to buy another expansion or core for mage cards.
Problem is that nobody is going to like having to pay extra money to compensate for a faulty product. I think they should give them out at events and such like promo cards. And give them to ambassadors to hand out to people as participation prizes after demos and local organized play events and such.
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I discover this thread today!
good decision for the wisard and the tower.
i'm looking forward to have all that in the new supplement (it's our "official rules").
thanks!
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I just reread this thread to see how big an impact the errata has on a particularly toolbox-y spell book (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=16741.msg68523#msg68523). It spent 0 points on Air school and featured 8-10 levels-worth of each of the other 3 elemental schools (hence was a "Water" Wizard but could almost equally have been Fire or Earth with very minor changes). In order to regain legality, this book would probably swap the Invisible Fist and some of the Earth and Fire attack spells for Air attacks to bring the sbp price down, which mostly means weaker (fewer red dice) finishers in exchange for more Ethereal attack spells that can deal Daze/Stun (hence Invisible Fist becoming unnecessary). It might also drop a Dissolve and an Acid Ball (?) to shed a few points.
But perhaps more importantly, Wizard's Tower takes a turn longer to activate, and every spell it casts is a tougher choice as it means losing access to that spell in future rounds (e.g. a potential opportunity cost that didn't exist before). Previously, an opposing mage couldn't ignore the Wizard's Tower. Now, well, it activates one fewer times and will eventually run out of Surging Waves/Acid Balls/Hurl Rocks/whatever else its throwing at you and your minions. So you might still choose to take it out, but you could at least consider ignoring it because it burns sbp's (in addition to mana) as fuel. The toolbox now comes with a more significant cost.
Attacks
I have built a toolbox of spells to sit on my wizard's tower. I also hard cast these spells through hawkeye.
Surging Wave - I use this mainly for equipment rush decks, and warlords, that rely Battle Forge. Battle forge has Hydro +3 so I use this against my opponent and hit his forge with 12 dice in a single turn. I also use this as a slam generation part of my wizard tower toolbox to deal with guards.
Flameblast - Defenses are a problem for this deck as it effectively switches off the "hit it with a rock, if it doesn't work; use a bigger rock" mentality of this book. Remove the guarding creature with a defence with these if I can
Hurl Rock/Fireball/Hurl Boulder - Main Offensive spells.
Invisible Fist - Etheral spike Damage for when arcane zap on its own isn't enough.
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I don't know the exact number of cards I have that are not errated versions, but I would surely buy a set that would contain all the new versions for all errated cards.
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Wow. Things just got real. Those are some absolutely massive changes. People have been debating if and/or how to nerf the Wizard for awhile, so it's nice to see Arcane Wonders finally weighing in. These aren't even close to the changes I personally would have made, but I'm absolutely sure the staff have playtested these ideas VERY carefully, so I'm excited to see how it goes.
In hindsight, the change to an air-only Wizard was strongly hinted at based on the similar nature of the Academy Wizard. I'm still not sure what I think about this change. It definitely limits his card pool availablity (which had contributed to keeping him a top-tier pick throughout Mage Wars' entire existence). On the other hand, the Wizard's ability to choose a limited specialization is what most set him apart from other mages, and I'm a bit sad to see that ability disappear entirely. Plus, there's no real thematic reason for a Wizard to be associated with air over any other element. Presumably air was picked because every other element already has an associated mage (earth has Warlord, fire has Warlock, and soon water will have Siren).
I'm surprised the developers didn't go the obvious and simple route of making the Wizard's Tower epic, but I kind of like what they did with it. The Wizard in the core set (before he starting mutating by "stealing" other schools' cards and abusing the toolbox nature of the tower) was usually geared towards delaying his opponent's ideal actions so that the Wizard had a short-term advantage until he either won the fight or ran out of tricks. The new Wizard's Tower looks like it will help with that playstyle. It provides potential extra firepower and board control every turn, but at the cost of burning through the Wizard's stockpile of attack spells. Now the Wizard actually has to choose between conservation (an Elemental Wand) and action efficiency (the Wizard's Tower).
Regardless of how things turn out eventually, these two changes pretty much force every existing Wizard player to radically alter his/her spellbook (since most of them are now illegal). The next Gen Con tournament is going to be very interesting.
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Hey there,
Just wanted to give a big shout out to Aaron for leading the charge on making Mage Wars a better game. One of the big reasons I'm such a huge fan of Arcane Wonders is that they are willing to look at balance from sets long ago. As the cardpool grows it's possible for imbalance to arise over time. Mage Wars is a living card game, and as such new problems are always going to pop up. Rather then banning cards that we pay for or ignoring the community they try and really figure out a possible problem. With such a small staff it's amazing that they have the time and resources to really dive into what their fan base thinks about the game.
Since I've started playing Mage Wars back in 2013 I've read thread after thread about Wizard's being to OP or not being OP, and everyone had their opinion on how to "fix" the Wizard. It was pretty clear that something needed to be done, but not something to destroy the core concept of the Wizard. I think the changes made does not really nerf the wizard in any way make him unusable.
I know a lot of players looked at the toolbox Wizard as the way to play. If you're feeling lost on how to use the Wizard. I would highly encourage you to brush off the dust on that old Gate of Voltari and explore some of the insanely powerful Arcane Creatures that exist in the Wizard's realm.
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I haven't read all the posts in this thread yet, but just wanted to share my initial thoughts.
I never was one to call the Wizard op of not op. Not too much of a problem in my group as we all like building and trying out ideas...
I think a nerf was bound to happen and I'm Sure a lot of thought, time and testing has been put into these changes. That alone makes me very happy. Arcane Wonders has definately always strived to give us a wonderful product. One that is balanced and fun to play. If anyone on the development team says that these changes were needed to be able to give us more mages that were playable and competitie, I'm sure that these changes are sound.
Thank you very much!We
We might have three mages less, but all the others just got better! They don't have to build their book to be competitie with the Wizard and a some strategies that lost their value might once again be viable. This is a wonderful thing. It's time to reassert some spells, some features and ideas that have been put away because that one mage with way too many spellpoints could too easily counter too much... That alone has led to butchering the initial idea of some spellbooks because you had to trim it to be prepared for al the counters one mage (of four) might throw at it...
Not a huge deal, but some ideas and spells are once again more worth looking at.
It's time to revisit ideas and be creatieve!!
Woohoo!!!
We should all enjoy this!
Thank you very much Arcane Wonders!!
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Am I the only one who actually likes these rulings? While I have played a wizard for a long time and have a favourite book, I have felt that a wizard is the only build that gets both water and arcane at base cost is a little OP. Not to mention Wizards tower as the most powerful "wand" in the game that only he can use. 10 Channeling to boot. etc etc.
This does not wreck the wizard; as the best tool for the job, at any SBP cost, is still the best tool. I will happily put Dissolve in Wizard at 2 SBP per copy and pos even run 3 copies and a Crumble. This makes the wizard more of a puzzle, but I get most enjoyment in the spellbook creation process. Playing the game only proves if I was right or wrong.
Wizards Tower as the new printing is still a viable card, not auto-include with a toolbox of cards like it was.
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Am I the only one who actually likes these rulings?
No!
Wizards Tower as the new printing is still a viable card, not auto-include.
Damn right!
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Am I the only one who actually likes these rulings?
(http://a2.res.cloudinary.com/csicdn/image/upload/c_pad,h_300,w_300/v1/Images/Products/Misc%20Art/Legion%20Supplies/full/LGNArtSleevesNope.jpg)
That said, there is a (small) downside. Fire Elemental, a longtime promo, is about to be released in the Lost Grimoire v1 set. It and Magma Golem would have been reasonably strong options for a Fire Wizard, but don't work as well for a Warlock because demons have more synergy with both Warlocks' abilities. So... it would be kind of sad if these non-demon Fire-school creatures never really see play because there's no longer a mage that wants to use them.
Perhaps we'll see an "Elementalist" mage in the future after all, maybe one who does get to choose its training from among the minor school and/or who is trained in "Elementals" and "Golems" (e.g. creatures and other spells with those subtypes)... but that isn't as strong as the Wizard was - e.g. NOT trained in Arcane, channeling of 9, more conditional mage abilities (e.g. no built-in ranged attack spell or not as strong of a damage reducer), less powerful (or no) spawn point/familiars, etc.
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Am I the only one who actually likes these rulings?
(http://i.imgur.com/pG23y2k.jpg)
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I like these changes very much.
Thank you Laddinfance and AW.
The Wizard change is elegant, minimal and will very likely turn out to have the desired effect.
Removing Spellbind from the Tower is perfect as far as I'm concerned.
It will result in the tower no longer being a "must-add" to every wizard book, which is a good thing.
If you want to use the Tower effectively you'll have to build your book accordingly to fuel it - focusing on attack spells.
If you're going with a wizard book that is low on attack spells, the tower is no longer a "must-add" and can no longer be abused.
This will increase Wizard book variety, which again, is a good thing.
If they had kept the Spellbind Trait and turned the Tower into an Epic for example, the tower would still be a "must add" to every Wizard book, he would just carry an even bigger bullseye.
Big thumbs up from me :)
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I like these changes very much.
Thank you Laddinfance and AW.
The Wizard change is elegant, minimal and will very likely turn out to have the desired effect.
Removing Spellbind from the Tower is perfect as far as I'm concerned.
It will result in the tower no longer being a "must-add" to every wizard book, which is a good thing.
If you want to use the Tower effectively you'll have to build your book accordingly to fuel it - focusing on attack spells.
If you're going with a wizard book that is low on attack spells, the tower is no longer a "must-add" and can no longer be abused.
This will increase Wizard book variety, which again, is a good thing.
If they had kept the Spellbind Trait and turned the Tower into an Epic for example, the tower would still be a "must add" to every Wizard book, he would just carry an even bigger bullseye.
Big thumbs up from me :)
Totally agree with this assessment of the tower errata. And it's not that I dislike the errata on the wizard. It's that I'm not sure what to think of it yet.
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I like.
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[quote author=Sailor Vulcan
Totally agree with this assessment of the tower errata. And it's not that I dislike the errata on the wizard. It's that I'm not sure what to think of it yet.
[/quote]
You have said it yourself: there were four wizards in the game, one for each element. Now there's only one. Three mages have been removed from the game and the one that's left has a less powerful tower.
It's perfect!
:-)
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it's a light erata on the wisard itself, and he still has a lot of qualities.
but it can be re-erated later (better than to come back on an erata).
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I dont have much acces to internet now, but I really like the errata! We might actually see the air school again. ;D
And the tower adaptation is perfect. I probably would have added epic too, but I'm very happy that the spellbind is removed. Im not complaining. :)
Thank you Aaron and the others! I really like both changes and Im glad air will not be "the forgotten element" anymore. The tower costs a turn to work and you will not be able to use a flamebast 5 turns in a row for free anymore. Thanks again! I'm also very happy that he cannot take all the best tricks from each school now.
Ps: I like how this will change the meta. Warlocks will have a sligtly easier time dealing fire damage with less dragonscale hauberks around.
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I really wonder why no one used air wizard.
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I really wonder why no one used air wizard.
Because Water or Earth were more effective either SBP wise or Damagewise.
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But a big stun case is really good.
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But a big stun case is really good.
Most wizards included a few lightning spells, just a lot less than the other elements.
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i'm really happy with Wiz errata. it is very good long term decission, simultaneously Wizard is still strong at this moment. i'm happy how this change will influence meta, that some cards can be more used now. really good decission and very elegant.
About tower , i agree it was very strong and auto include in each Wiz spellbook. Now it will change, wonder how much people will use it :)
Exciting, good job!
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I really wonder why no one used air wizard.
Air wizard was my first mage! I brought it to Gen Con 2014. Here's an old link to it
---> http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=14530.msg41101#msg41101
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The changes are nice and elegant. I am very excited about the new meta that will evolve. Great job AW.
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I really wonder why no one used air wizard.
Air hasnt had a ton of support to flesh out the school. fire got expanded by 2 warlocks (and an academy warlock now), Earth got fleshed out more with 2 Warlords, Water is only just now being built on in a big way, but Water training has always been high value training because it lets you carry more staple spells like Dissolves (major value), Surging Waves, and Acid Balls.
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I really wonder why no one used air wizard.
Air hasnt had a ton of support to flesh out the school. fire got expanded by 2 warlocks (and an academy warlock now), Earth got fleshed out more with 2 Warlords, Water is only just now being built on in a big way, but Water training has always been high value training because it lets you carry more staple spells like Dissolves (major value), Surging Waves, and Acid Balls.
Fire only added 1 Warlock in an expansion (first Warlock was base set), and it got far more Dark than Fire (probably so as not to benefit the Wizard too much). Yes, Earth got 2 Warlords, which definitely made the Earth Wizard a lot stronger. Water always had Dissolve, but it got a lot stronger as expansions came out: Surging Wave was in Kumanjaro, Acid Ball was in Druid vs Necro, and Crumble was in Academy. I think it was Acid Ball that really tipped the scale towards Water, whereas Fire was probably strongest in the base set and Earth only became playable after Forcemaster vs Warlord.
Air got quite a lot of new cards in Academy: namely Azurean Genie and Lightning Raptor, and lots of attack spells that deal Stagger (Lightning Jolt, Forked Lightning, Piercing Thunderstrike, Voltaic Discharge). And then there are all the (mostly Wind) Air cards in Domination: Windstorm, Sandstorm, Gale Force Ring, Bolt of V'tar. Hopefully we'll get Staff of Storms (promo) in an expansion soon (perhaps Lost Grimoire?). On top of that, the Poison-related cards tend to be in the Air school, allowing an Air Wizard to have cheap access to some DoT cards (and nothing stops a Wizard from playing other DoT like Idol, Plagued, Magebane and Ghoul Rot). Right now that just means Poison Gas Cloud, but I imagine Wall of Poison Gas might come out in the near future. If so, it will help the Necromancer, but could also help an Air Wizard running a non-living "buddy" (could be a Zombie Brute or a Devouring Jelly or whatever). And you can even use Raincloud to mitigate some of the damage to your own living creatures from effects like Idol, Plagued and Poison Gas Cloud.
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I don't play competitive or at OCTGN enough to have something to say in this, but to me these changes are exactly what this game needed to get out of the wizard-and-tower-in-every-book-meta. I really looking forward to see what the community will come up with now.
Besides that, which I haven't seen been discussed in here yet, is that this will open up for future arcane & fire/earth/water mages. Now that slot isn't shut anymore. That to me is very interesting with this change.
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I really wonder why no one used air wizard.
Air hasnt had a ton of support to flesh out the school. fire got expanded by 2 warlocks (and an academy warlock now), Earth got fleshed out more with 2 Warlords, Water is only just now being built on in a big way, but Water training has always been high value training because it lets you carry more staple spells like Dissolves (major value), Surging Waves, and Acid Balls.
Fire only added 1 Warlock in an expansion (first Warlock was base set), and it got far more Dark than Fire (probably so as not to benefit the Wizard too much). Yes, Earth got 2 Warlords, which definitely made the Earth Wizard a lot stronger. Water always had Dissolve, but it got a lot stronger as expansions came out: Surging Wave was in Kumanjaro, Acid Ball was in Druid vs Necro, and Crumble was in Academy. I think it was Acid Ball that really tipped the scale towards Water, whereas Fire was probably strongest in the base set and Earth only became playable after Forcemaster vs Warlord.
Air got quite a lot of new cards in Academy: namely Azurean Genie and Lightning Raptor, and lots of attack spells that deal Stagger (Lightning Jolt, Forked Lightning, Piercing Thunderstrike, Voltaic Discharge). And then there are all the (mostly Wind) Air cards in Domination: Windstorm, Sandstorm, Gale Force Ring, Bolt of V'tar. Hopefully we'll get Staff of Storms (promo) in an expansion soon (perhaps Lost Grimoire?). On top of that, the Poison-related cards tend to be in the Air school, allowing an Air Wizard to have cheap access to some DoT cards (and nothing stops a Wizard from playing other DoT like Idol, Plagued, Magebane and Ghoul Rot). Right now that just means Poison Gas Cloud, but I imagine Wall of Poison Gas might come out in the near future. If so, it will help the Necromancer, but could also help an Air Wizard running a non-living "buddy" (could be a Zombie Brute or a Devouring Jelly or whatever). And you can even use Raincloud to mitigate some of the damage to your own living creatures from effects like Idol, Plagued and Poison Gas Cloud.
Now that I think of it, people might start cleaning water is op after this expansion. There will be far more water creatures than any other element.
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Water will be stronger than the other 3, but for the siren it will be her major school instead of the minor school like the other mages with elemental training.
Also, air has the etereal advantage. But since the wizard has the arcane zap, he had no need for it. This change thus indirectly also slightly weakens the power of the zap.
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To be honest I don't think the wizard was ever overpowered per se. Mage Wars is overwhelming skill-based, and so well-designed that even with only five people in the company it still is overwhelmingly skill-based for all players regardless of the matchup. The problem with the wizard wasn't that he was overpowered in the conventional sense. It is that he was over-centralizing the metagame and heavily constraining both spellbook design-space and future card design-space.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Having had some more time to digest these changes I’m even more impressed with them.
What I find so impressive about them is how they were able to get so much out of so little.
How they were able to affect/correct so many “issues” simultaneously with such “minor” changes.
These are truly master moves imo.
We all suggested a myriad of potential changes to correct the Wizard and his Tower but rather than starting to tinker with his Voltaric Shield or Arcane Zap ability or giving him a SBP penalty Laddinfance and AW ( and the playtesters no doubt ) put the finger right on the sore spot.
Just remove his Water/Earth/Fire Training and remove Spellbind from the tower and all blocks fall into place :
- we get a sufficiently toned down Wizard, who can no longer cherrypick from 5 schools and who can actually be rediscovered as an Air Mage,
- Warlocks and Warlords become the best in their training field(s) - as they should be
- the Tower is no longer a Toolbox creator nor a must in every Wizard book.
Mission accomplished and a job well done.
Couldn’t help but voice my appreciation again for correcting this real issue.
Time will show these errata were really necessary and the game will greatly benefit from them.
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Having only saw this, I'm gonna weigh in and express my delight at these changes. I've always disliked the Wizard, as he always felt "too good". Certainly Wizards always seem to have the best winning records when my group play, so we generally don't play them as it always seemed too easy to win.
I know that errata are always difficult for games designer to put in. Especially when it's changing such a core design element of the game. But I can see how the old Wizard could definitely have limited the options of developing new spells for other Mages. It's not the change I would have made (I'd have also added an opposition school, probably Nature), but it is definitely one that I can happily get behind.
The Wizard Tower fix is absolutely perfect. When a card is so good that the only "right" option is to always take it, then it's probably too good. Like others have stated already, I now think it's a good and viable card - but nowhere near being an auto-include.
Fantastic work by AW!!!!
Oh, and I'd also like to echo a few other comments that I'd like to see some kind of future release that involved a collection of errata'd cards. Would definitely be an auto-purchase by me! :)
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I for one have noticed that the wizard is much more fun to build spellbooks for now. He has more options that people will actually play now I think
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Just taught someone the game. He played air wizard and loved it. He bought a core set. We should keep in mind that new players aren't going to mind much.
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Thanks for the errata folks.
The Air-only element training was an excellent choice, in my opinion. Air Wizards are powerful already, so all this does in my mind is takes away the ability to call the Wizard book one of the other elements in case it happened to be more spb efficient that way. Water training comes to mind in particular; think of how many water school spells are desirable for a Wizard. Also, it feels right to give the Wizard a niche in this element... much like Earth seems to belong to Warlord, Fire to Warlock, etc.
The Wizard Tower change was a good one. I also wonder why it didn't get a Zone Exclusive trait as others have mentioned, but losing Spellbind was a bare minimum change for a fix. Also, the combination of the two changes is very good. The Tower now will have more Air spells and not be a source of Surging Waves and other non-air staples.
Thanks again for the changes.
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Doh! I had already wondered why there was no discussion of the errata; I didn't think to look at the sticky threads!
Anyway, I fully approve of these changes! (and about time, too...)
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I was awaiting for the imminent release of spanish edition.
Was prepare to teach to new / young players to know and enjoy this game.
I used only 2 mages: Priestess & Fire Wizard.
What to say... Absolutely disagree with this radical decision.
Now, what will be the next? Forcemaster Errata? >:(
Because all we know FM is another OP mage... or not?
Maybe was a bit OP, but Wizard was a CORE mage. I bought (to customers or in eBay) some Fire School Cards - Equipment, Spells... separately to inprove a good SpellBook. Now my favourite mage is destroyed.
There was some other options: Mana production, Life points... but no: All other Schools lost.
P.D: Could I ask a errata Card for Wizard and 2 for Wizard's Tower to AW or have to buy another basic box?
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The errata was issued over the summer. The Core Set and Conquest of Kumanjaro have not been reprinted since then, so buying a new box would not get you the errata'd card. When these products get reprinted next these cards will be updated to their current wording. Right now I've included a link (in the original post) to pdf's of the two cards, so you can print off your own copies of them. We're also working on a possible solution to make errata cards more available to our fans.
Issuing errata on the Wizard was not something I did lightly, but it was necessary, especially when the Siren was coming out. I explained in my post on this (http://www.arcanewonders.com/arcane-wonders/wizard-ability-card-and-wizards-tower-errata), that the change was because the Wizard had become an enormous design constraint limiting what we could do in the future. I'm sorry that you disagree with our approach to this issue. Thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts on this matter.
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I was awaiting for the imminent release of spanish edition.
Was prepare to teach to young players to know and enjoy this game.
I used only 2 mages: Priestess & Fire Wizard.
What to say... Absolutely disagree with this radical decision.
Now, what will be the next? Forcemaster Errata? >:(
Because all we know FM is another OP mage... or not?
Maybe was a bit OP, but Wizard was a CORE mage. I bought separately (to customers or in eBay) some Fire School Cards - Equipment, Spells... separately to inprove a good SpellBook. Now my favourite mage is destroyed.
There was some other options: Mana production, Life points... but no: All other Schools lost.
P.D: Could I ask a errata Card for Wizard and 2 for Wizard's Tower to AW or have to buy another basic box?
It wasn't merely a matter of being overpowered. The non-air wizards were over-centralizing the metagame. The wizard was more powerful than every other Mage, so every other Mage needed to use a larger chunk of their spellbook points to deal with him. And nobody was using the air wizard at all. The combination of training and wizard tower gave the wizard insane action and mana advantage, which caused him to play like a brute force Mage rather than the trickster and master manipulator he was originally designed to be. Now that the wizard has been errata'd he's much more fun to play and play against, and other kinds of wizard spellbooks have been given the chance to shine. Before, the wizard only had 4 different strategies that anyone had any reason to play: wizard tower attack spell rush, watergate, blasting banker, and telepit. There's a lot more interesting things you could do with the wizard now that the meta isn't revolving around those four spellbooks.
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Mika,
If you play with only the core box, or a few expansions, you should simply enjoy yourself and play with a fire mage. :) The problems initiated with the release of more expansions. With each new expansion, the wizard gained more tools and became more overpowered. Especially with the release of the Siren, things would have gone out of control. The Siren is a water based mage and the wizard would have been able to use all her tricks. The wizard was perfectly balanced IN the core box itself.
Only if you want to play competitive with the entire cardpool you should really consider the errata. I for one am VERY happy they did these changes.
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Mika,
If you play with only the core box, or a few expansions, you should simply enjoy yourself and play with a fire mage. :) The problems initiated with the release of more expansions. With each new expansion, the wizard gained more tools and became more overpowered. Especially with the release of the Siren, things would have gone out of control. The Siren is a water based mage and the wizard would have been able to use all her tricks. The wizard was perfectly balanced IN the core box itself.
Only if you want to play competitive with the entire cardpool you should really consider the errata. I for one am VERY happy they did these changes.
On the contrary the errata is better for casual play too. The wizard is much more fun with it, he has more options, and this way if someone in your playgroup wants to start playing competitively they will be more familiar with spellbook building for the actual competitive meta.
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Mika,
If you play with only the core box, or a few expansions, you should simply enjoy yourself and play with a fire mage. :) The problems initiated with the release of more expansions. With each new expansion, the Wizard gained more tools and became more overpowered. Especially with the release of the Siren, things would have gone out of control. The Siren is a water based mage and the wizard would have been able to use all her tricks. The Wizard was perfectly balanced IN the core box itself.
Only if you want to play competitive with the entire cardpool you should really consider the errata. I for one am VERY happy they did these changes.
Agree with all. Really. And thanks for your words, amigo Halewijn. I hope we will get many new players in Spain (languaje is a big deal here) after the spanish edition, and I will have no problem to teach / play against all them with my Core Box. But dunno, for me MW was perfect beacuse the concept of a 'Closed Game'. Well balanced, and with no the obligation to "subscribe" all months to get the last powerful cards... Definitely has been the biggest change I've seen in the game.
I'm sorry that you disagree with our approach to this issue.
Thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts on this matter.
No. Thanks to you for your kind answer and sorry for my reaction.
Simply I don't understand why all the other people is so happy with this change, but maybe I have to think twice about the good things that will come in the future thanks to this radical errata...
About my feelings with MW:
Rated with a 10 (https://boardgamegeek.com/collection/user/Mika_F1?gallery=large&sort=rating&sortdir=desc&columns=title%7Cstatus%7Cversion%7Crating%7Cbggrating%7Cplays%7Ccomment%7Ccommands&geekranks=Board+Game+Rank&own=1&ff=1&subtype=boardgame) in BoardGameGeek. No discussion about this; simply a masterpiece in my opinion.
I bought the Core Box in 2014. And start learning to master only 2 mages:
(because I'm not collector, neither completist)
Priestess was for me the 1st option. Holy School, angels, the Light... nice! Was a "kind mage" to play vs newbie players, using Guard Angels, defending myself. Lot of Epic games (vs Necromancer) were made with my little princess.
Fire Wizard was my Top One. My strong mage to deal vs Forcemasters, Warlocks & Wizards in really hard battles with agressive strategies.
I left playing MW for some months awaiting the spanish edition. Some days ago, I noticed about the inminent release of DEVIR Edition in November and cheering up to "card players" (Magic, Netrunner, AgoT) to give it a chance playing it vs me.
After posting my feelings about the future of MW in Spain in a spaniard dedicated forum, another user warned to me about the "nerf of the Wizard"... Came back to AW Forum and discover that was true... and everybody happy!
And now?
Have to discard the Fire Wizard. A well thought Spellbook, now is useless, cause lot of spells/equipments are now so expensive. Obviously trained in Wind School has no chance against a FM.
The Priestess, - at least one year ago -, definitely was not an opponent vs Forcemaster or Not-Wind-Wizard, so need another TOP mage. And not very sure if in the future not will see another big "errata" with those TOPs. So atm, I feel sad, and unmotivated with one of my all time favourites games.
Thats all. Sorry if I'm not so happy as most of the users. But Wizard was the versatile option, and now I feel a little bit "forced" to learn to play at least 2-3 more mages.
P.D. Sorry for my english.
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Hey Mika,
I like your honesty here and I am surprised as well that there is not more people upset about the wizard changes.
I agree with others the fix had to be done with all the expansions coming out the wizard was increasingly becoming too strong. With that being said there is no reason why you can't change and have a house rule the old rules and play the way you would like to with your friends. Especially if you only have a few sets. Once you experience and play more of the expansions you may change your mind about changes AW has made.
if you enjoy Mage Wars don't let the wizard errata dissuade you. Again house rule and play the way you and your group wants to. You may start to enjoy playing other mages and find one that you like more if you stick to the current changes.
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Your english is pretty good ;)
irrelevant to the topic wizard:
It's interesting to see that you consider the forcemaster to be this strong! The general idea on this forum is that she is middle-tier, not even top tier. I would love to hear your thoughts about her in another topic? Maybe you could start one and describe why you think a air/wind-wizard and a priestess would be at a disadvantage. It would be an interesting read. :) Also, Priestess and wizard are considered top tier, but of course, this is all very subjective.
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The Priestess, - at least one year ago -, definitely was not an opponent vs Forcemaster or Not-Wind-Wizard, so need another TOP mage. And not very sure if in the future not will see another big "errata" with those TOPs. So atm, I feel sad, and unmotivated with one of my all time favourites games.
One year ago was before release of Academy. Guess what mage won 2016 German Championships where every set before Academy was legal. It was Priestess.
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The Priestess, - at least one year ago -, definitely was not an opponent vs Forcemaster or Not-Wind-Wizard, so need another TOP mage. And not very sure if in the future not will see another big "errata" with those TOPs. So atm, I feel sad, and unmotivated with one of my all time favourites games.
One year ago was before release of Academy. Guess what mage won 2016 German Championships where every set before Academy was legal. It was Priestess.
Remember, the problem with the wizard wasn't mere OP-ness. It was that he over centralized the metagame and *excessively constrained viable spellbook design and future card design*. The priestess-user that won probably had a significant number of spellbook points devoted to dealing with wizards, or their wizard-using opponents were not very skilled, or they faced very few if any wizards. Although I don't remember what their spellbook actually looked like, nor did I watch the entire final match.
The point is, the wizard doesn't need to win every single tournament to be unbalancing the game. Mage Wars uses deck building points with variable costs for including each card in your deck depending on what "champion" you build your deck with. And most other customizable card games don't do that. So when a card or deck archetype becomes overpowered in a tcg they win almost all the tournaments they are in. But in a game like Mage Wars, everyone ends up building their decks to overcompensate for cards that would otherwise be overpowered. The problem that would have severely impacted gameplay ends up severely impacting spellbook design and card design instead, and only impacting gameplay indirectly through those design constraints, or directly when people decide not to overcompensate for the problem by spending extra deckbuilding points to deal with it.
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The Wizard/Tower errata is the best thing to happen in MW in years. I completely support the errata, and the game has become sooo much better since. I say this as someone that exclusively played Wizard in tournament games, but it's made the casual games much better too.
Wizard was definitely overpowered. It was the top tier all by itself, with nothing on a par. The top few book archetypes were all wizards. Moreover, time and time again you would see people post book concepts that were perfectly in theme for the mage they had chosen, and often the experienced players here (myself absolutely included) would point out that the if you swapped the mage for a Wizard the book got better, 98% of your card choices still worked, and you now had an extra 10-20 spell points to play with.
I have played around with errata ideas on both cards myself, and dozens were suggested here. The problem was Wizard could take any of them, even a lot of them combined and still dominate. To be honest Wizard could have lost all elemental schools and been fine, but it was critical that it lost Water and Fire, and it's for the best that it lost Earth too. The Tower errata is honestly better than anything I came up with, and it's perfect.
At a very casual level it wasn't needed (and anything beyond the broadest balancing isn't) but even at the more experienced/serious casual play Wizard was a problem, and competitively it distorted the whole game. It was killing Adramelech Warlock, it was hurting Arraxian and both Warlords, and the new Siren was never viable as it stood. It closed off so much design space for the future too...
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As l am new to Mage Wars i was wondering if the Wizards errata change affected his Apprentice Spell Book in any way?
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As l am new to Mage Wars i was wondering if the Wizards errata change affected his Apprentice Spell Book in any way?
No. The recommended spell books (both Apprentice and full 120 point) are for an Air Wizard, and Wizard's Tower isn't in the core set (it was released in the Conquest of Kumanjaro expansion), so neither change affects the recommended spell books.
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Personally, I have come to like the Wizard change to Air training only mostly for flavor reasons. We now have a couple of Mages that are trained in fire, a couple trained in earth, and a few trained in water. My sense of elemental balance is satisfied now that there is one that always is trained in air.
The WT did need a change, and, while I don't know that I would have made the same changes, I am glad that something was done.
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Pretty much agree 100% with Dave.
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Personally, I have come to like the Wizard change to Air training only mostly for flavor reasons. We now have a couple of Mages that are trained in fire, a couple trained in earth, and a few trained in water. My sense of elemental balance is satisfied now that there is one that always is trained in air.
The WT did need a change, and, while I don't know that I would have made the same changes, I am glad that something was done.
The wizard is trained in Air and Arcane.
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Wow... tower nerf was needed but, the school nerf is just dumb.
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Wow... tower nerf was needed but, the school nerf is just dumb.
The School nerf was done to allow for future game development.
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Wow... tower nerf was needed but, the school nerf is just dumb.
The School nerf was done to allow for future game development.
One Salami Sticker for you :)
Transfer rate is 100 Salami Stickers = 1 Banana Sticker :)
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Wow... tower nerf was needed but, the school nerf is just dumb.
I 100% disagree. In fact, I think the wizard nerf was needed and the tower nerf was nice, but not necessarily needed.
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Just in case anyone missed it, my earlier post basically sums it up.
People hated the wizard because he was so powerful that he overcentralized the metagame. Everyone had to use a ton of spellbook points to deal with him leaving less leftover for everything else they needed to do.
The wizard didn't even play like a wizard back then, the optimal thing to do with him was to totally ignore his natural trickstery style and just overwhelm the enemy with sheer force. The wizard had more answers that could fit in his book than anyone else did, and he could generate mana and actions faster than everyone else and lock you down before you could do anything unless you devoted a ton of spell points to that one particular matchup. And no one ever played the wizard with air training. They always picked water fire or earth because those were more powerful.
On top of all these advantages, the wizard also had his tower which had spellbind at the time and he could still change the bound spell for free. This was effectively the same as raising his available spell points even more. He didn't need to include as many copies of his attack spells to make use of his tower, and he could include a lot more attack spells and he would never run out. He could easily have used 3-4 towers but he never needed to. 2 towers was always more than enough.
After the erratas the wizard is finally FINALLY fun to play and to play against. Most people probably don't hate him anymore. He's become one of my favorite mages ever since the errata. He's not the same as before. You should totally give the wizard another chance.
Also would like to emphasize in case it wasn't already clear, Mage Wars cards are basically never overpowered in the conventional sense in their intended formats because of the spell point system. If a card is really powerful, it often will require opponents to devote more spell points in order to deal with it.
Make no mistake, the wizard had been more powerful than all the other mages, and this did cause the game to be unbalanced. But the kind of brokenness that in other games would have resulted in an imbalance of gameplay ended up as an imbalance of deck design instead. Whenever you built a new deck one of the most important questions you had to ask was how would it deal with the wizard?
Also basically nobody used air wizard at all until after the errata.
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Yea agree some changes needed to be made and since academy wizard with additional spells it kind of helped certain builds be possible. And the wizard did not have to choose another element school, because of the additional cards. I will say it does not feel like cheating choosing a wizard to play against others. The other schools have been greatly enhanced from all the academy, PvS and lost grimore sets making them more flexible.
I do feel wizards tower was being overly used , too powerful and something needed to be done. Not sure if they swung it too far because now I rarely see a tower out.
I said this somewhere else, I think they could of got away with making a mana cost to change the spell out of the tower keeping it's flexibility but making a bigger investment.
Personally if the school choice was still allowed in the wizard I don't think siren would ever of been a great viable option to play. Wizard would have the one up on everything besides maybe songs.
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Yea agree some changes needed to be made and since academy wizard with additional spells it kind of helped certain builds be possible. And the wizard did not have to choose another element school, because of the additional cards. I will say it does not feel like cheating choosing a wizard to play against others. The other schools have been greatly enhanced from all the academy, PvS and lost grimore sets making them more flexible.
I do feel wizards tower was being overly used , too powerful and something needed to be done. Not sure if they swung it too far because now I rarely see a tower out.
I said this somewhere else, I think they could of got away with making a mana cost to change the spell out of the tower keeping it's flexibility but making a bigger investment.
Personally if the school choice was still allowed in the wizard I don't think siren would ever of been a great viable option to play. Wizard would have the one up on everything besides maybe songs.
Schools most in need of help: war and mind. Both lack many options or have certain below average cards. Academy should provide some excellent options though.
Mage most in need of help: Forcemaster. She literally has the fewest ways to play of any mage I think and very few cards. She has received almost no support since her initial release. Again, Academy should fix this.
Mage I want to see expanded: Druid. Most druids I tend to see don't have much variation. Essentially the first couple of turns are almost or exactly the same. We need something that can compete with vine tree for a first round play.
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Yea warlord and forcemaster academy sets are really going to expand the options both mages can do.
That said I think since PvS and lost grimore they have helped out both schools tremendously. Even just the addition of minds eye it has helped make a very different style for the forcemaster to use.
IMo even without forcemaster academy I know a player with a very scary forcemaster build that a friend of mine is running. He is going to a few tounarments this summer and he is going to do very well.
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Yea warlord and forcemaster academy sets are really going to expand the options both mages can do.
That said I think since PvS and lost grimore they have helped out both schools tremendously. Even just the addition of minds eye it has helped make a very different style for the forcemaster to use.
IMo even without forcemaster academy I know a player with a very scary forcemaster build that a friend of mine is running. He is going to a few tounarments this summer and he is going to do very well.
What does that build look like?
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I'm not sure if I'm allowed to share his secrets. I will say he does run minds eyes and I already may have said too much. ;)
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I'm not sure if I'm allowed to share his secrets. I will say he does run minds eyes and I already may have said too much. ;)
Well ask him!
If he's not going to gen con or any other big tournaments, he should be good.
You could also pm it to me as I'm not going to any events or planning to reveal the books strat/tactics if your friend doesnt want that to happen.
Besides, knowing what your opponent is going to do is very different from countering what their going to do.
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Stay on point red. This threads about the wizards tower errata and its in the highlighted threads. Let's not take the discussion in another direction
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Stay on point red. This threads about the wizards tower errata and its in the highlighted threads. Let's not take the discussion in another direction
Sry. :o