Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: rodrinat on April 26, 2016, 11:54:33 AM
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Hello. I bought the game a few months ago and i have been teaching this game with the starter rules that comes with the game.
In May, i will be running some demos in my local club (i am from Argentina). I was thinking in changing the starter rules just to me every wizard feel more unique. I want to use the wizards characteristics (hp, channel, attack) and power so they can see some difference between them from the start.
I made a few games like this and i like them. But i wanted to ask you if you feel like this would be balance. In the games i run i feel like the beastmaster could be a little op, but i didn’t run that many games to prove that.
What do you think?
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Hello. I bought the game a few months ago and i have been teaching this game with the starter rules that comes with the game.
In May, i will be running some demos in my local club (i am from Argentina). I was thinking in changing the starter rules just to me every wizard feel more unique. I want to use the wizards characteristics (hp, channel, attack) and power so they can see some difference between them from the start.
I made a few games like this and i like them. But i wanted to ask you if you feel like this would be balance. In the games i run i feel like the beastmaster could be a little op, but i didn’t run that many games to prove that.
What do you think?
I find that it's best to play (at least) two matches when teaching a new player: one using the Apprentice spell books (http://www.arcanewonders.com/resources/Apprentice_Spell_Lists.pdf) and following the "How to Teach Mage Wars" document (linked here (http://www.arcanewonders.com/resources/Mage_Wars_How_to_Teach_Mage_Wars.pdf) and included in the organized play kits) and then another using the full board, rules, abilities and 120-point recommended spell books (http://www.arcanewonders.com/resources/Pre-built_Core_Set_Spell_Lists.pdf) of the same mages. For this purpose, I generally keep an Arraxian Crown Warlock and Asyran Priestess of Westlock in books with the Apprentice cards in the first half (facing forward) and remaining cards needed to complete the 120-point recommended spell books in the second half (facing backward).
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I find that it's best to play (at least) two matches when teaching a new player: one using the Apprentice spell books (http://www.arcanewonders.com/resources/Apprentice_Spell_Lists.pdf) and following the "How to Teach Mage Wars" document (linked here (http://www.arcanewonders.com/resources/Mage_Wars_How_to_Teach_Mage_Wars.pdf) and included in the organized play kits) and then another using the full board, rules, abilities and 120-point recommended spell books (http://www.arcanewonders.com/resources/Pre-built_Core_Set_Spell_Lists.pdf) of the same mages. For this purpose, I generally keep an Arraxian Crown Warlock and Asyran Priestess of Westlock in books with the Apprentice cards in the first half (facing forward) and remaining cards needed to complete the 120-point recommended spell books in the second half (facing backward).
I do the same except I use Beastmaster and Warlock, and I have teh Apprentice in teh first half of teh book, and then the full book in the second half.
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In how much time do you usually run this 2 games?
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In the games i run i feel like the beastmaster could be a little op, but i didn’t run that many games to prove that.
What do you think?
Don't worry, that's definitely not the case. In my Beginner games, I initially felt the Warlock was OP. Then I thought the Wizard was OP. It's really not indicative of anything.
With time, after having created a couple of your own spell books you'll realize that the Wizard is the strongest, due to its flexibility and cheap access to 'staple' spells.
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In how much time do you usually run this 2 games?
It very much depends on the person, but these two books were picked to be the more aggressive, and thus faster.
I'd say typically something like 20-30 mins rules explanation, 60 min Apprentice game and 90-120 min full game?
That's assuming i teach (or someone that knows the game well) - two beginners would be a lot slower. Given people routinely talk of first games taking 3-5 hrs that's not too bad. Games speed up a fair bit after this (or at least decision making speeds up, and time in the game is spent on play, not rules and planning)
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It very much depends on the person, but these two books were picked to be the more aggressive, and thus faster.
I'd say typically something like 20-30 mins rules explanation, 60 min Apprentice game and 90-120 min full game?
That's assuming i teach (or someone that knows the game well) - two beginners would be a lot slower. Given people routinely talk of first games taking 3-5 hrs that's not too bad. Games speed up a fair bit after this (or at least decision making speeds up, and time in the game is spent on play, not rules and planning)
I have found that people who know other games like magic, 40k, or fantasy flight boardgames pick the game up alot quicker as they already have an understanding of concepts that are in MW.
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I've taught the game to six people so far and in all instances (except the first), I used Academy with the pre-built spellbooks to introduce the game. From there, the players jumped right into Arena with no difficulty. The very first time I played was with a buddy who also had never played so we just jumped right into the full game and learned together. It took about 4 hours, but it was fun learning that way. But then again, we also don't feel that a 44 page manual is that big a deal.
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In how much time do you usually run this 2 games?
It very much depends on the person, but these two books were picked to be the more aggressive, and thus faster.
I'd say typically something like 20-30 mins rules explanation, 60 min Apprentice game and 90-120 min full game?
That's assuming i teach (or someone that knows the game well) - two beginners would be a lot slower. Given people routinely talk of first games taking 3-5 hrs that's not too bad. Games speed up a fair bit after this (or at least decision making speeds up, and time in the game is spent on play, not rules and planning)
i dont think i will have that much time. That´s why i wanted to change the apprentice rules. My idea was that this time we play this mode and the next time we gather i introduce to them the full game.
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i dont think i will have that much time. That´s why i wanted to change the apprentice rules. My idea was that this time we play this mode and the next time we gather i introduce to them the full game.
That's already what I dd - one apprentice game, and then the next is the full game.
If they don't have time for that, then honestly MW is the wrong game for that group...
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You might lament the lack of flavor in apprentice, especially if you teach it repeatedly, but it's not really a concern. The apprentice game is all about learning the basics, and variable powers definitely aren't needed for that and may actually be a detriment to some people's learning curve. Stick to normal apprentice and just let them know variable mage abilities exist for next time when they play the full version.
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In my experience, it takes about 15 minutes to explain the game (goal, round structure, all the things a creature can do on its turn, skim through the spells in the opponent's spell book without going into detail regarding each keyword), then about 45 minutes to play through the Apprentice match. Then it takes 90-120 minutes to play the full 120-point match... or we stop when we run out of allotted time, but usually by this point they're already realizing just how awesome Mage Wars is and how many things they could do (or do differently).
Try not to bog things down with keywords. I generally end up playing the Priestess, and I summon a soldier with a defense and a Unicorn with Regenerate just to show what those things do, and then I play them aggressively to keep the match short. I try to avoid spells and abilities dealing Daze/Stun/Sleep, etc, and I don't heal much (aside from Regenerate) as I don't want to bog us down with rules/keyword explanations and I don't want to draw out the game.
If you don't have time for both at your event (because you want to run a lot of demos), then you'll still need about an hour per new player to teach and run a single Apprentice match. If you want to oversee two new players playing against each other, add 30 minutes and try to help them plan their spells without absolutely telling them what to do (because that isn't fun for them)... e.g. it might be useful to narrow their options to a few good choices (e.g. "if I were you, I might try this or that or that.").
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I only explain keywords as they come up.
I remember being at a convention and helping to do demos once, and the other ambassadors were giving super long explanations of the rules before even starting. I could tell it was overwhelming people, but apparently this was how they were "supposed" to do it, probably because otherwise some of the keywords go unexplained. But there are simply too many keywords in the core set to explain them all in one apprentice game.
When I tried to do a demo without bogging down the players with excessively long and wordy pregame explanation, an Arcane Wonders staff member told me not to do it that way and that I needed to include the long wordy explanation at the beginning.
Personally I think it might be better to play in Apprentice mode maybe 2-3 times before going to the full game.
When I first started playing Mage Wars Arena in 2013, I started out in the full game. I had a losing streak for the first half a year and it was pretty frustrating. If I had played even a single game in apprentice mode it would have helped a lot.
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Yes, i will be running 2 o 3 demos that day so i cant spend 3-4 hs per games. i will make the standard apprentice games then.
i will make them play each other and the idea was to spend 1hs-1.30hs per games. The next time we gather if i see them confident about the rules, i will introduce to the the full game.
Thank you very much for the help, i will take notes of your advice.
I will be posting the photos of the event when we make it.
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Yes, i will be running 2 o 3 demos that day so i cant spend 3-4 hs per games. i will make the standard apprentice games then.
i will make them play each other and the idea was to spend 1hs-1.30hs per games. The next time we gather if i see them confident about the rules, i will introduce to the the full game.
Thank you very much for the help, i will take notes of your advice.
I will be posting the photos of the event when we make it.
I doubt it's going to take an hour an a half in apprentice mode. Maybe an hour at most but that rarely happens.
One way to speed up the demo when you have a lot of demos to do is to start all the mages at 12 damage, and one zone away from each other with one creature and one equipment each. This generally isn't advisable unless you have a lot of demos to do, but it can be pretty useful for busy days at a convention.
You can find the instructions for Apprentice mode in the resources and downloads section of the forum. Keep in mind that the apprentice spellbooks listed there are not the 4th edition ones. The 4th ed apprentice spellbooks are in the 4th ed core rulebook, and are simpler and have fewer cards than they do in earlier editions.
Good luck!
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I only explain keywords as they come up.
I wish it were that easy!
For me this has never worked when teaching the game. New players _always_ ask about keywords during their planning phases. And how could they not? How are they supposed to decide which cards to play if they don't know the exact effects?
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I usually throw beginners directly into full games of arena and start this with explaining an overview: Idea and goal of the game (mages fight to death in the arena with different strategies), that mages and schools are different, that you pick cards from a normally self-build spellbook and play thorough phases.
Then I show starters the 4 prebuild core-spellbooks and and what types of cards are in there and how those mages feel like without any detail. After about 10-15 minutes we are here and they choose a mage.
Then I go through the setup, symbols on the cards, phases and boardmarkers and some basic strategies (rush, swarm, economic first, trying to get mana and/or action advantage).
From there on we play a semi-secret game. For sure there are many questions about keywords and rules and I will see my opponents book and cards to explain. So I pretend (also to myself) I don't know what my opponent is planning. When he or she made mistakes I let them switch cards or rethink the idea (fireball on burnoroof, shoot through wall, melee-only-defense instead of anti-ranged). The game is completely vabout getting the feeling of what is possible.
This way it is fun and has a manageable learning curve. I can try out some new openings so it is not boring at all. So far I had a very good experience that way. The main point is: let them play and help just when needed in a gentle manner!
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When I teach, I try to integrate keywords in to game play. I.E. this creature has the Fast trait, and I quickly explain what it means and how to use it. Same way when they reveal a card, and it has a keyword and they haven't asked about it yet, I give a quick once over on it and how they might use it, and I then move on.
The main thing I try to do while teaching, is to keep it moving, minimize analysis paralysis, and give a good feel for the game. Also make sure the "minis" types, know that is a kill the king game or otherwise they might try to summon every creature of the spellbook.
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I created an Apprentice mode version of the Codex to make it easier for new players using the apprentice mages. It is available on the BGG site.
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I created an Apprentice mode version of the Codex to make it easier for new players using the apprentice mages. It is available on the BGG site.
Can you post or send me the link plz?
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I only explain keywords as they come up.
I wish it were that easy!
For me this has never worked when teaching the game. New players _always_ ask about keywords during their planning phases. And how could they not? How are they supposed to decide which cards to play if they don't know the exact effects?
I have used the "How to Teach..." document guidelines with great success. One weekend, a friend and I taught a dozen people how to play that way. This uses half of an arena and starter books. We taught them key words when the spell came into play. We just told them not to worry about it for a first game, and that they would learn more about each as they played. The guidelines are to help them understand what they need to do to win and then walk through a turn, suggesting that they start with a piece of equipment and/or a creature... there are almost no conjurations in the starting books.
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I created an Apprentice mode version of the Codex to make it easier for new players using the apprentice mages. It is available on the BGG site.
Can you post or send me the link plz?
Here is the Boardgamegeek.com link. You may need to be a member to download files.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/120066/mage-wars-apprentice-codex-2015 (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/120066/mage-wars-apprentice-codex-2015)
Here is my Dropbox link to the file.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/d7z6sxpsx7wnza5/Mage%20Wars%20Apprentice%20Codex%20-%202015-01.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/d7z6sxpsx7wnza5/Mage%20Wars%20Apprentice%20Codex%20-%202015-01.pdf?dl=0)
Arcane Wonders also has the Apprentice Full Card Spellbooks available so players can read the spells before playing. They are located on the Tournament HQ page here http://www.arcanewonders.com/news/tournaments (http://www.arcanewonders.com/news/tournaments).