Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: KaneKalos on November 11, 2015, 11:39:35 AM
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ive been wondering for a little while what a spawn point for the force master would look like and I've got a couple ideas I'd like to throw out to see if anything sticks. (I'm attempting to make my Psylock swarm more viable.)
The idea I had would be to make the spawn point an equipment item for the force master (also an equipment/conjuration fusion crossed my mind, though how exactly that would work I'm not sure or if any cards like that are possible for MW.). Equipment could be a helmet (possibly autonomous to leave room for a psi orb?) or something that would focus the energy from the mages mind magic (it could have an ability such as "add 1 mana for every force spell you cast"). or an autonomous conjuration that was a copy of the mages brain that was floating alongside the Mage?
Just curious to know if the mind school or the force master would ever see a spawn point so I can go into a tournament and win it all with my Psylock swarm!
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I don't think there will be any plans for a forcemaster spawnpoint soon. The next release is Paladin Vs Siren so any chance of will probably have to wait for an alternate Forcemaster.
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I thought so, too. I was just wondering what such a card would look like!
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I've always imagine thoughtspores as literally appearing as a huge fleshy pimple on the top of the mages head and it slowly grows until it pops off (and takes a spell with it) and flies off on its own. I imagine a spawnpoint would be equally as disgusting :D
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I've always imagine thoughtspores as literally appearing as a huge fleshy pimple on the top of the mages head and it slowly grows until it pops off (and takes a spell with it) and flies off on its own. I imagine a spawnpoint would be equally as disgusting :D
Oh, hello nightmare fuel! I see you come in unleaded now.
Cognitive Protothallium. Mind 4 Creature. Spawnpoint, Rooted, Uproot 1, Flying. Channeling 1.
When you summon Cognitive Protothallium, it may prepare any number of Mind Creatures, and it may summon one each deployment phase. The prepared spells cannot be changed.
I'm imagining clusters of undifferentiated tissue, arranged into fronds, swaying gently, with Thoughtspores as the gently levitating fruited bodies of each stalk seeking to float away, arranged like the kernels of a grain protruding from a stem. Beneath the gills on its back, the Thalius itself clings to the ground, straining to hold down its wayward and drifting spores until they ripen.
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I've always imagine thoughtspores as literally appearing as a huge fleshy pimple on the top of the mages head and it slowly grows until it pops off (and takes a spell with it) and flies off on its own. I imagine a spawnpoint would be equally as disgusting :D
Hahaha. I'm picturing a Forcemaster/Garbage Pail Kids crossover card.
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I've always imagine thoughtspores as literally appearing as a huge fleshy pimple on the top of the mages head and it slowly grows until it pops off (and takes a spell with it) and flies off on its own. I imagine a spawnpoint would be equally as disgusting :D
Oh, hello nightmare fuel! I see you come in unleaded now.
Cognitive Protothallium. Mind 4 Creature. Spawnpoint, Rooted, Uproot 1, Flying. Channeling 1.
When you summon Cognitive Protothallium, it may prepare any number of Mind Creatures, and it may summon one each deployment phase. The prepared spells cannot be changed.
I'm imagining clusters of undifferentiated tissue, arranged into fronds, swaying gently, with Thoughtspores as the gently levitating fruited bodies of each stalk seeking to float away, arranged like the kernels of a grain protruding from a stem. Beneath the gills on its back, the Thalius itself clings to the ground, straining to hold down its wayward and drifting spores until they ripen.
Or you could give it the dissipate 4 trait instead. Also should not have channeling because thoughtspores have channeling. And should have a regular summon action rather than deploy.
Also, rooted uproot 1 and flying? That reminds of the necrotising vampiress.
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I've always imagine thoughtspores as literally appearing as a huge fleshy pimple on the top of the mages head and it slowly grows until it pops off (and takes a spell with it) and flies off on its own. I imagine a spawnpoint would be equally as disgusting :D
Oh, hello nightmare fuel! I see you come in unleaded now.
Cognitive Protothallium. Mind 4 Creature. Spawnpoint, Rooted, Uproot 1, Flying. Channeling 1.
When you summon Cognitive Protothallium, it may prepare any number of Mind Creatures, and it may summon one each deployment phase. The prepared spells cannot be changed.
I'm imagining clusters of undifferentiated tissue, arranged into fronds, swaying gently, with Thoughtspores as the gently levitating fruited bodies of each stalk seeking to float away, arranged like the kernels of a grain protruding from a stem. Beneath the gills on its back, the Thalius itself clings to the ground, straining to hold down its wayward and drifting spores until they ripen.
This sounds awesomely gross. It's like a pile of biomass just waiting for DNA to sequence properly. Totally see it being like garbage pale kids.
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Or you could give it the dissipate 4 trait instead. Also should not have channeling because thoughtspores have channeling. And should have a regular summon action rather than deploy.
Also, rooted uproot 1 and flying? That reminds of the necrotising vampiress.
Why not channeling, the Warlord has channeling on the armory and on Gurmash, there are probably other examples. It could be limited in other ways rather than channeling. Like the battleforge just limiting to a certain spell type, or even just to mind spells.
An interesting idea from the dissipate could be an illusion caster; that it can cast any creature as level 1, the creature appears as active, but the creature comes with a dissipate x (x = creature level). So throw out a bitterwood fox that will last a level, more scary a bloodcrag or something that will disappear in 4 turns.
I'd make it incorporeal to give it some resilience as it'd be a key target when combating a forcemaster.
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Something extremely powerfull for the forcemaster's spawnpoint is casting creatures from your oponents spellbook. The only creature cast by the spawnpoint would be the cantrip force-clone with a cost of X and allowing the forcemaster to look through the oponents creatures. The chosen creature would cost double mana and have an upkeep cost equal to their level. (It has a force-clone token to indicate this.) If the creature dies, it goes back to the oponents spellbook.
It would be in line with the forcemaster having a difficult time putting creatures in his book and controlling the oponents stuff...
Then again, I think a bunch of people would ban such a card and burn it as soon as they get their hands on it... :)
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How would you implement it in practice? Just hand over your spellbook? Seems a little harsh as it not only gives the forcemaster a creature but deprives you of yours. I guess the costs are high, but there's also a free peek at your book that seems to break the meta a little.
Something extremely powerfull for the forcemaster's spawnpoint is casting creatures from your oponents spellbook. The only creature cast by the spawnpoint would be the cantrip force-clone with a cost of X and allowing the forcemaster to look through the oponents creatures. The chosen creature would cost double mana and have an upkeep cost equal to their level. (It has a force-clone token to indicate this.) If the creature dies, it goes back to the oponents spellbook.
It would be in line with the forcemaster having a difficult time putting creatures in his book and controlling the oponents stuff...
Then again, I think a bunch of people would ban such a card and burn it as soon as they get their hands on it... :)
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How would you implement it in practice? Just hand over your spellbook? Seems a little harsh as it not only gives the forcemaster a creature but deprives you of yours. I guess the costs are high, but there's also a free peek at your book that seems to break the meta a little.
Maybe the oponent of the forcemaster must hand over the creatures. He does not have to hand all of them over, but will not be able to cast the ones he didn't hand over later in the game. If there are multple copies of the same creature, he only has to hand over one to be able to cast the others later...
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I could envision a Forcemaster-only spawn point that starts with 2 or 3 spore markers. Can only summon Mind creatures. Each time it deploys a Mind creature, remove a spore marker. This would still have the benefit of being a quick action (to cast the spawn point, which could either be a conjuration or a Cerebro helmet or something), freeing up the Forcemaster's full actions for movement and/or melee attack, but limited to a fixed number of creatures that it can spew out.
I wouldn't mind it competing with the Psi Orb's equipment slot. Psi Orb is better if you're focusing on solo combat (for your Dancing Scimitar, Force Hold, Forcefield, etc) and/or buddy (using Invisible Stalker specifically), whereas this spawn point helmet would be for a Thoughtspore (or Psylok? or any future Mind creatures...) focused strategy.
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I could actually see Psyloks being used if there ever was a mind spawnpoint.
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How about a Spawnpoint that channels and provides the Cantrip trait to Thoughtspores? No new special rules required.
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First off all we need more mind creatures. There are only three right now, if I don't miss something. Alright you you'll swarm those, but still it would be much more fun with a higher diversity. There is a nightmare growing I hope :)
At the moment all three mind creatures are kind of weak and limited. Besides one thoughtspore as actionsupport (teleport or sleep) taking a grizzly or cervere as a buddy for the forcemaster is always the better (though expensive) choice. A level 3 or 4 not-so-fast-dieing heavy hitter would be a welcome card.
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Honestly, there needs to be more mind creatures available before we bother with a spawnpoint. Regular spawnpoints are mana sinks that require many rounds to “payoff”. Currently, the typical Force Master will have a max of 3 creatures (Invisible Stalker and 2 Thought Spores), usually less. The action and mana spent on a spawn point are best used elsewhere.
As to what it would look like, I always imagined something like a Green Lantern Ring. You just point, shoot and out pops a mind creature (color coded to your current emotional state, of course).
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Honestly, there needs to be more mind creatures available before we bother with a spawnpoint. Regular spawnpoints are mana sinks that require many rounds to “payoff”. Currently, the typical Force Master will have a max of 3 creatures (Invisible Stalker and 2 Thought Spores), usually less. The action and mana spent on a spawn point are best used elsewhere.
As to what it would look like, I always imagined something like a Green Lantern Ring. You just point, shoot and out pops a mind creature (color coded to your current emotional state, of course).
Technically seedling pods are spawnpoints, although they get destroyed after a single use. Just wanted to point that out.
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For me a spawnpoint is not about saving the mana but more about saving the actions.
I wouldn't mind paying 7-ish mana for a spawnpoint that could cast thoughtspores. Even without channeling.
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For me a spawnpoint is not about saving the mana but more about saving the actions.
I wouldn't mind paying 7-ish mana for a spawnpoint that could cast thoughtspores. Even without channeling.
How many Thoughtspores do you plan on playing? If it is 4, maybe. Less than that is not worth the extra mana and spellbook points.
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How many Thoughtspores do you plan on playing? If it is 4, maybe. Less than that is not worth the extra mana and spellbook points.
true. In general I play 0-1 thoughtspores because I don't want to stand still and cast one. Just wanted to say that I don't use spawnpoints for the mana advantage. ;)
With a johktari I almost always use a lair. With the beastmaster I almost never use one because of his quick summoning.
Since thoughtspores cost a lot of mana to use this analogy is probably incorrect.
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For me a spawnpoint is not about saving the mana but more about saving the actions.
I wouldn't mind paying 7-ish mana for a spawnpoint that could cast thoughtspores. Even without channeling.
How many Thoughtspores do you plan on playing? If it is 4, maybe. Less than that is not worth the extra mana and spellbook points.
I would totally play a mind spawnpoint for just spores. 7 mana sounds awesome. I'd run it with two spores! A quick action to summon some creatures and make the enemy seriously consider closing with me! Yes please!
The biggest trouble for the Forcemaster is the full action. You either delay your advance at the beginning to cast a Thoughtspore or you risk it suffering an alpha strike if you summon it too close to the enemy. Summoning it early means that you have to guess what spell would be most useful on it. Summoning it later ends up costing you two actions to cast it because you have to use some kind of enchantment to keep it alive (Brace Yourself, Gator Toughness, Blur, Jinx, etc).
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I've always considered Thoughtspores to be created from the will of the caster. Having a spawnpoint that creates them does not make sense to me from a ...but...having a spell that destroys 3 Thoughtspores in a single zone to create spawnpoint (a gate to another dimension) in that zone does make sense. The problem is that would be 24 spell points on top of the cost to create the spawn point and the extra action economy cost.
So, new creature? Call it a Mindspore. Costing 3, only having 1(or zero) attack dice, with the pest and cantrip traits, and is quick castable. It's only purpose is to be used to create the Mindgate(?). Mindgate is a spawn point costing 3, in addition to having to destroy 2-3 Mindspores as an additional cost. It would be able to summon any creature in the mages spell book.
Just thoughts off the top of my head as to how to make a thematically appropriate spawnpoint.
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Again, it could be cheap (like 4 or 5 mana?) and only have, say, 2 tokens that each get removed when you summon a creature. Or a mana cost proportional to how many tokens you put on it. This way, it is reasonably priced but can't be abused to summon a huge swarm, since that goes against the theme of a (usually solo-ish) Forcemaster.
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So there has been a lot of really interesting ideas throughout this thread.
So from my perspective, when we made the Forcemaster, we made her with the understanding that the Mind school would always be very sparse for creatures. From day one Mind mages have not been meant to have the same sort of plays that other Mages have. From the creative side, and I'm sure our Loremaster could say more, the Mind school has very very few creatures of its own, just Psyocculuses really. So, having a spawnpoint for the Forcemaster doesn't really work both from our focus on the mage and from the creative side as well.
Now, all of that said there are a bunch of ideas that I have for more mind creatures. However, they're also trying to keep in mind the idea that the Forcemaster is not meant to have tons of creatures and that the Mind school as a whole is not meant for that.
When we were working on FVW, I had worked out a whole list of possible mechanics and card Ideas to help bridge the Forcemasters obvious weakness and let her accomplish her goals. Personally I found a huge amount of originality in working on all of those cards. There was so much not used, and some of that was completely understandable. However, it does excite me to work on the alternate Forcemaster. I know I've mentioned some of my dream to make him a bit like a Green Lantern. We'll see what happens there, after all I'm working on a lot before then and so things could change.
I hope this gives you guys a bit of insight about the Forcemaster and her relationship with her creatures. Now, I'll let you all get back to your conversation.
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trying to keep in mind the idea that the Forcemaster is not meant to have tons of creatures and that the Mind school as a whole is not meant for that.
Laddin, do you mean the FM isn't meant to have a lot of creatures in school, or a lot of creatures in play? i.e. you're trying to force (see what I did there) it to be more solo/big buddy builds? I'm kind of presuming the former.
The trouble is the mind creatures we've got kinda suck. They've all got some good coolness to them, but (and perhaps its a meta problem), they struggle to stay alive and be worth the mana and tempo cost for getting them out. I mean the Psyloc should be awesome, but its a one swat pony. I looove invisible stalker, but spend most of my time trying to maintain action advantage so he does't go visible and leave the mage a chance to splat him and as a result hardly attacking with IS (I've read the discussion about the advantage of having the enemy mage constantly holding back an attack to strike IS).
If AW isn't anti FM's with lots of mind creatures in play, then the cantrip 'thought spore' concept seems kinda cool. Like FM drops a thought and it cognates over 2-3 rounds and then eureka, you've a mind creature.
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One thing I like about the Mindspore idea (as I think more on it) is that they don't necessarily need to join together to from a spawnpoint. There can be spells that use the mindspores to create other constructs. Of course this takes them out of the range of individual creature cards and more into tokens as they become building blocks of other things. Which could imply that there is a helmet that is an ersatz spawnpoint for the mindspore tokens themselves rather than actual creatures.
Just playing around with the idea/thinking aloud/dropping mindworms.
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Laddin, do you mean the FM isn't meant to have a lot of creatures in school, or a lot of creatures in play? i.e. you're trying to force (see what I did there) it to be more solo/big buddy builds? I'm kind of presuming the former.
It is a bit of both. The Mind School is not meant to have many creatures, and the Forcemaster is not meant to have a lot of creatures in play. She's meant to be a lone wolf character.
The trouble is the mind creatures we've got kinda suck. They've all got some good coolness to them, but (and perhaps its a meta problem), they struggle to stay alive and be worth the mana and tempo cost for getting them out. I mean the Psyloc should be awesome, but its a one swat pony. I looove invisible stalker, but spend most of my time trying to maintain action advantage so he does't go visible and leave the mage a chance to splat him and as a result hardly attacking with IS (I've read the discussion about the advantage of having the enemy mage constantly holding back an attack to strike IS).
You pass to ensure you don't have to activate until the end right? In this way the Invisible Stalker will only have to worry about one creature and a quickcast. Now you're right, the opposing mage is going to be the best thing to attack at it. For me personally, I like the IS against Necromancers, as they have to pay extra spellpoints for ethereal attacks and a 5D attack is pretty solid against them and their creatures normally.
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The stalker is one of those undervalued creatures. Granted, when battling a wizard with a zap I would never cast it, but I've had great success with it!
Every round I guess if the opponent prepared an (ethereal) attack spell and try attack when I think he didn't.
With its 7 life it can probably even survive an ethereal attack. I think of it as a win if the opponent didn't cast his quick cast because I didn't activate.
If I give my forcemaster a mongoose agility and use a stalker guards become completely useless!
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The stalker is one of those undervalued creatures. Granted, when battling a wizard with a zap I would never cast it, but I've had great success with it!
Every round I guess if the opponent prepared an (ethereal) attack spell and try attack when I think he didn't.
With its 7 life it can probably even survive an ethereal attack. I think of it as a win if the opponent didn't cast his quick cast because I didn't activate.
If I give my forcemaster a mongoose agility and use a stalker guards become completely useless!
I agree 100%. Stalker does not get much play because it is a FM only creature. People often forget the Stalking part. Patience is key.
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Not to completely derail, but does Invisible Stalker's attack ignore guards since it begins the sequence with Elusive or does the loss of Invisible make it so that it has to hit a guard? I assume that it ignores guards, but as other recent threads have proven, the guard action is very powerful.
Also, while I would love a Mind spawnpoint, I completely recognize why there isn't one. Without the tension of whether to use your full action on creatures there isn't much choice in what book to build with your Forcemaster. Every creature (even Mind creatures) is a very carefully calculated addition to the book--a weighing of the value of another action marker against the need to get to the damage race quickly. I don't think it's wise to give the Mind school a spawnpoint that will work on Thoughtspores. It's telling that the burning desire of many forcemasters is a way to cast thoughtspores without using your own actions.
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All still makes psylocs a spell without a book... and yes, IS can have a place, but its a lonely one in the corner....
Ladin, I do sometimes forget to pass when outnumbered, so yeah, IS could have more play. But really, in the global meta, are we seeing the IS and FM slaying it? When steelclaw or others are the buddy of choice... in fact people mostly debate the value of any mind school creatures, then something is wrong. If AW playtesters were regularly romping the wins with their clever, 'stalker' school books, then I'd suck it up, but its a pipe dream that old timers tell about their time at band camp... let me tell you, there was no pipe or pussy, just smoked stalkers.
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For the Forcemaster, I do think that part of the key to playing that Mage is knowing when to use the pass.
As for the Psyloks, the issues with them would require a large meta shift, and I'm sure we could go over all the issues with him. However, I don't know that they're particularly important to the current conversation.
As for the Invisible Stalker, well I can understand your opinion. And I'm going to leave it there. I just wanted to be sure you were giving yourself the best chance for success.
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Laddin, do you mean the FM isn't meant to have a lot of creatures in school, or a lot of creatures in play? i.e. you're trying to force (see what I did there) it to be more solo/big buddy builds? I'm kind of presuming the former.
It is a bit of both. The Mind School is not meant to have many creatures, and the Forcemaster is not meant to have a lot of creatures in play. She's meant to be a lone wolf character.
The trouble is the mind creatures we've got kinda suck. They've all got some good coolness to them, but (and perhaps its a meta problem), they struggle to stay alive and be worth the mana and tempo cost for getting them out. I mean the Psyloc should be awesome, but its a one swat pony. I looove invisible stalker, but spend most of my time trying to maintain action advantage so he does't go visible and leave the mage a chance to splat him and as a result hardly attacking with IS (I've read the discussion about the advantage of having the enemy mage constantly holding back an attack to strike IS).
You pass to ensure you don't have to activate until the end right? In this way the Invisible Stalker will only have to worry about one creature and a quickcast. Now you're right, the opposing mage is going to be the best thing to attack at it. For me personally, I like the IS against Necromancers, as they have to pay extra spellpoints for ethereal attacks and a 5D attack is pretty solid against them and their creatures normally.
Probably in the same way that the nature school has less attack spells.
The mind school has a lot of good controlling effects, which makes up for the lower creature count to a large extent.
That being said, mind mages having fewer creatures in play at a time does not automatically mean that the mind school itself should have fewer creatures overall.
And let's not forget that mind mages don't have to be trained in ONLY mind. One idea I thought of for a mind/nature mage a while back is a mayan shapeshifter mage that takes the form of the creatures it summons by attaching them to itself rather than summoning them separately.
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As for the Invisible Stalker, well I can understand your opinion. And I'm going to leave it there. I just wanted to be sure you were giving yourself the best chance for success.
I'm keen not to write him off just yet, so I'll keep at it, but it does feel an umm more challenging road.
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I can tell you Charmyna can demolish a FM quite handily. This was pre-nerf of HoB and BF .......
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How about a neutral spawnpoint.
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Spawnpoints are tied into the core of what makes a particular Mage or set of Mages work. Building a generic one would be a bit out of place. Not saying it couldn't happen, but right now it would seem like a long shot.
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I can imagine a novice spawnpoint with no channeling and some sort of every-other-round timer for pretty cheep. But I'd want a reason to do it. Making all mages more similar cuts off other options.
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I can imagine a novice spawnpoint with no channeling and some sort of every-other-round timer for pretty cheep. But I'd want a reason to do it. Making all mages more similar cuts off other options.
I am very happy you answered this. A generic spawnpoint is not something I'm waiting for ::)
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Maybe a spawnpoint with dissipate 2? You cast it, remove a dissipate token during upkeep of next round, then you only get to deploy something from it once before the second dissipate token is removed. Definitely don't think it should be novice though.
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Catching up on this thread, I read a few replies that realy please me:
The fact that there will not be a lot more mind creatures is a good thing in my book. The forcemaster has tripple spellbook cost for non mind creatures and thus it is not a good idea to give fm a wide aray of mind creatures. If there are more mind creatures in the future, they will probably have a second school (like the community dark/mind creature which is in the making), or they should be situational -included in the book, but not a garanteed cast-. Next to a high spellbook cost, a high casting cost or better upkeep cost seems fitting for the fm...
A neutral spawnpoint seems like a NO. Good!
I proposed a spawnpoint which is not realy for casting mind creatures, but for 'stealing'/borrowing' creatures from your oponent but at a higher cost. I thought it was quite a forcemaster-ish idea to have the spawnpoint tap into an oponents spellbook. Having a 'normal'-functioning spawnpoint (channel X and prepare a creature during planning phase) for a fm seems like a bad idea which will make the fm quite bland.
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Spawnpoints are tied into the core of what makes a particular Mage or set of Mages work. Building a generic one would be a bit out of place. Not saying it couldn't happen, but right now it would seem like a long shot.
We need one to spawn Ssalks. Thinking of the movie Starship Troopers here. I can see a team of mages battling a hive of creatures coming at them as a scenario in Battlegrounds.
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Spawnpoints are tied into the core of what makes a particular Mage or set of Mages work. Building a generic one would be a bit out of place. Not saying it couldn't happen, but right now it would seem like a long shot.
We need one to spawn Ssalks. Thinking of the movie Starship Troopers here. I can see a team of mages battling a hive of creatures coming at them as a scenario in Battlegrounds.
(http://i.imgur.com/0UYt9Rk.jpg)
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Spawnpoints don't have to be for creatures. So far, there are no spawnpoints for incantations, attacks, or enchantments. Forcemaster suffers from lack of actions, but creatures are not the only way to compensate.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/0faksxf8lbsmlf0/Mindstone.jpg?raw=1)