Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Mages => Topic started by: KosmosAlive on November 27, 2014, 04:54:29 PM
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For a long time I hae noticed that the Wizard kicks ass when challenging most of the Mages. I wonder if anyone else has made similar observations.
Particularly the Warlord and Forcemaster have little chance for keeping their Arcane duel up to par with the Wizard. I think the Wizard has a serious advantage in that the widely-agreed-upon most important spell in Mag Wars, the omnipresent "Dispel" costs one spellpoint for only one mage. . . OP much? 8) This is why I think it would make a lot more sense to make Dispel a NOVICE Incantation. This, in combination with more copies of the spell, would even out the odds a little bit. If this were to happen, I would tend to think of it not as a Nerfing of the spell, but instead as a leveling of the screaming lack of Novice Arcane spells. How many others would appreciate having more than one Novice Incantation (Shift Enchantment) from Arcane.
My theory is that the Wizard is Arcane Wonders' 'star of the show,' so to speak, hence his magical training being Arcane.
The fact that the wizard has no Magic School restrictions (i.e. triple spellpoints) AND he can be entirely unpredictable being trained in ALL of an elemental School.
If the Wizard was comparable to the Druid, then he would be trained in Arcane + Level ONE of one of the Elemental Schools, and Nature spells would cost triple (I've seen others post about the Wizard's aversion to the natural order, in his countering with progress and experimentation).
Maybe this is more of a rules discussion, Idk. I suppose some errata might be helpful in the future ;)
--The Iron Legionnaire
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This is a very old topic. The problem is nowhere near as bad as it used to be, if it's even still there.
Non-arcane Alternatives to dispel;
Harsh forge monolith/arcane corruption
Harsh forge plate
Purify
Getting rid of the enchanted object
They will probably release more in due time.
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13773
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Just for clarification, the Wizard cannot be completely unpredictable in his build. He has to choose his element before the game and let his opponents know.
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If you'd like me to change the post into "we need alternate ways to dispel", then away I go!
there are a few ways to remove an equipment from a mage (corrosive orchid, dissolve, explode; no two are in the same school) and lets ignore corrode markers negating armor.
but the only school that outright removes enchantments is arcane(dispel, purge magic, destroy magic; all arcane). maybe there would fewer complaints if there were a couple other ways to remove enchantments, such as...:
1)ACG's magisbane lily (like corrosive orchid but for enchantments)
2) a holy spell I came up with forever ago which moves enemy enchantment(s) from a friendly creature to another friendly creature in the same zone.
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If you'd like me to change the post into "we need alternate ways to dispel", then away I go!
there are a few ways to remove an equipment from a mage (corrosive orchid, dissolve, explode; no two are in the same school) and lets ignore corrode markers negating armor.
but the only school that outright removes enchantments is arcane(dispel, purge magic, destroy magic; all arcane). maybe there would fewer complaints if there were a couple other ways to remove enchantments, such as...:
1)ACG's magisbane lily (like corrosive orchid but for enchantments)
2) a holy spell I came up with forever ago which moves enemy enchantment(s) from a friendly creature to another friendly creature in the same zone.
Well I suppose there is something that shift enchantment is useful for that transfusion wouldn't be so preferable for. I didn't think of transferring enchantments to targets they'd be less useful on. Maybe the next time i get poisoned blood revealed on me, I'll shift it to my opponent, rather than just destroying it.
Also, you forgot harshforge monolith and disarm. And the warlord has access to harshforge plate.
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Unfortunately, you cannot use [mwcard=MW1I25]Shift Enchantment[/mwcard] on enchantments you do not control - so if your opponent puts Poisoned Blood on you, you cannot shift it to either one of your creatures or to the enemy.
Still: a spell which could do something like that would be very nice.
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Unfortunately, you cannot use [mwcard=MW1I25]Shift Enchantment[/mwcard] on enchantments you do not control - so if your opponent puts Poisoned Blood on you, you cannot shift it to either one of your creatures or to the enemy.
Still: a spell which could do something like that would be very nice.
You mean like [mwcard=MW1I27]Steal Enchantment[/mwcard]?
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Well, that works. The fellow poster before me referred to Shift Enchantment, though. :)
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Oops, my mistake, got their effects mixed up
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And I forgot that Steal Enchantment existed - feels good to be in the mix-up club! ;D
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For a long time I have noticed that the Wizard kicks ass when challenging most of the Mages.
I wonder if anyone else has made similar observations.
...I think the Wizard has a serious advantage in that the widely-agreed-upon most important spell in Mag Wars, the omnipresent "Dispel" costs one spellpoint for only one mage...
- I think it would make a lot more sense to make Dispel a NOVICE Incantation... How many others would appreciate having more than one Novice Incantation (Shift Enchantment) from Arcane.
- If the Wizard was comparable to the Druid, then he would be trained in Arcane + Level ONE of one of the Elemental Schools, and Nature spells would cost triple (I've seen others post about the Wizard's aversion to the natural order, in his countering with progress and experimentation).
Agree with all.
Last 9 plays with the BB, and all them very easy victories. :|
So, your propositions are Ok, but in my opinion I would say:
- Nerfs for Wizard: "Channeling 9" & Cost to activate "Voltaric Shield": 4 mana.
and / or
- Buffs for other Mages: "Dispel" & "Seeking Dispel", Novice Incantations.
Will be helpful for the game.
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I think this is a problem with the game in general. It's a super effective strategy to just undo every enchantment and equipment your opponent casts (ala blasting banker and watergate wizard) and no mage can do this as effectively as the wizard with cheap enchantment removal and mage wands. It's not just the Wizard though. Most spellbooks pack 3 or 4 dispels and dissolves and acid balls. Dispel/dissolve wars is quite a boring game and much flavor of individual mages is lost when they can't keep any of their unique stuff on the board. But maybe this is a topic for another thread.
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I have to disagree, with the dozen people whom I regularly play with, the Wizard tends to be second tier, though I like the Air Wizard for general utility. I run a Priestess, a Druid and an Air Wizard on a regular basis, and I have found the Priestess to be the best all around Mage, though she tends to be weak against the Forcemaster and the Beast Master. The Druid is a good mage, though she tends to be weak against the Warlock, but she is capable on having phenomenal levels of armor and regeneration, and I have gotten her up to 9 Armor, with a Veteran's Belt on top of that, and healing four life per turn, though I tend to not use the tree unless I know that it will survive long enough to be useful. The Air Wizard is a good utility mage though who has no particular weaknesses and can deal horrific amounts of damage with his attack spells.
Do I think that the Wizard is best? No. Do I think the Wizard is good? Yes. Do I think the Wizard is a boring mage? Yes, though being able to Nullify the opponent so that I can counter their attempt to heal is always worth a laugh.
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The Wizard is indeed very powerful, Water Wizard even more due to cheap Dissolve.
The thing is that Wizard will always (if built properly) win the 1 for 1 war. You cast enchantment/equipment, I get ride of it. A wizard can remove easily 6 equipment (dissolve), 6-12 enchantment (dispel + seeking dispel) + 6 enchantment/incantation (nullify). So for 24 spellbook points a Wizard can potentially counter 24-48 (even more) of your spellbook points.
The thing that counter Wizard are creatures, but the problem is that Wizard can also summon creatures to counter your creatures and the Arcane creatures are quite good.
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My point of view is that the Wizard is fun to play, and perhaps the most customizable Mage (due to training selections). I, however, have to suggest that the Wizard isn't over-powered. I believe that a person's skill in general, and familiarity with any Mage in particular is what is important.
I have a friend who regularly beats me... and I don't think he's played a Wizard more than once or twice out of all of our matches, while I play one at least half of the time. Sure, the Wizard is good when played by someone who is very good at the game, knows what to expect from his or her opponent, and so on... but then most Mages are.
Conversely, if the Wizard is going up against another Mage who either 1) casts creature after creature while minimizing enchantments, or 2) goes all out aggressive on him, then the Wizard can't play such a game with multiple dispels and dissolves, or in gaining extra mana... he'll not be able to keep up in the damage dealing race. Having more mana in the end doesn't matter if you are dead.
In particular, I like how AW went about making the Wizard (primarily) somewhat less powerful, and helping the Warlord out without messing with the design of the Wizard directly. The runes were brilliant... making it more costly to remove equipment, etc. so there is a better balance there... but please don't tell me that a well-played Warlock or Forcemaster or Beastmaster or Priestess or whatever is underpowered compared with an equally well-played Wizard. I don't buy it.
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The Wizard is in no way shape or form all powerful, unbeatable, or over powered. Yeah he's flexible but almost to a detrimental point. He's a very good mage but he can be taken down. You just need to be able to adapt to his tricks like any other mage. He's also one of the simplest for new players to get good with so I think that leads a lot of folks into thinking he's "the best." Honestly with the exception of the Malakai Priest I think any mage can get the job done, win matches, and even tournaments. You just need to sit down, practice. and learn your mages. Do that and you can beat a Wizard.
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The Wizard is in no way shape or form all powerful, unbeatable, or over powered. Yeah he's flexible but almost to a detrimental point. He's a very good mage but he can be taken down. You just need to be able to adapt to his tricks like any other mage. He's also one of the simplest for new players to get good with so I think that leads a lot of folks into thinking he's "the best." Honestly with the exception of the Malakai Priest I think any mage can get the job done, win matches, and even tournaments. You just need to sit down, practice. and learn your mages. Do that and you can beat a Wizard.
You can't dispel a myth that easily, especially since it used to be true. *puts on tinfoil hat*
The Wizard IS overpowered. His training in arcane means he can have more copies of most of the auto-include spells (like teleport dispel and nullify) then anyone else.
Also, since people keep losing to the wizard, that must mean that the wizard IS better, not that those winners are simply playing him more often because they THINK the wizard is better. That would be crazy.
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You can believe what you want. I've seen nothing that proves Wizards are superior. They're good but beatable like any other Mage. That's my two cents.
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You can believe what you want. I've seen nothing that proves Wizards are superior. They're good but beatable like any other Mage. That's my two cents.
I completely agree with you. I was wearing a tinfoil hat when I said all those things. Did you not notice me put it on?
Also keywords: myth, crazy, "used to be true"
Seriously can't people take a joke?
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I didnt get that tinfoil hat. Wasnt sure if its not some hipster thing :-)
Google helped.
And i think that wizzard is not op. I beat him several times with my wizard :-)
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I beat him several times with my wizard :-)
8)
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I've certainly beaten Wizards (or lost with a Wizard) in nearly every matchup possible.
Doesn't change the fact that Earth and Water Wizard spellbooks are on my go-to tournament short list. But it is a list that includes some other mages, also.
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I have never really seen the point of the Water Wizard. You get all water spells, but there is nothing above level 1, so a Druid would work just as well. And, as a nature mage, she is capable of summoning very large creatures (animal or plant) and casting a metric ton of enchantments. I honestly think that a Druid could beat a Water Wizard without much difficulty.
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I have never really seen the point of the Water Wizard. You get all water spells, but there is nothing above level 1, so a Druid would work just as well. And, as a nature mage, she is capable of summoning very large creatures (animal or plant) and casting a metric ton of enchantments. I honestly think that a Druid could beat a Water Wizard without much difficulty.
As long as she use non-Druid type creatures otherwise she is hosed ;), well with Hydro immunity her plants are quite tough for a true Water Wizard to beat with her attack spells, but the WW has the awesome Arcane creatures which are really great at fighting the Druids mostly non-mobile plants.
Oh yeah Fire is not "out of school" for the Water Wizard, so a couple of Flameblasts or other Flame based Attacks/Creatures are not expensive at all.
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Water + Arcane covers the weakness of Arcane's heavy hitters very well.
Wizard's Tower, Acid Ball, Dispel, Dissolve, Surging Wave and Teleport are all in school for Water Wizards. Liberal application of those can overcome the weaknesses of Hydras or Jellies very powerfully. And since those are all great spells the Wizard was going to include and cast anyway....
As for Druid, Wizard's Tower + Flameblast or Fireball is a hard pill to swallow. If Wizard wants to win that matchup badly enough (and is willing to invest the points) there's not much Druid can do to stop him, other than giving up on casting plants. The Wizard just needs be sure to bring more Towers than the Druid brings Force Hammers.
Druid's hope in this matchup is that the Wizard didn't bring many Fire spells because he had bigger fish to fry.
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I have never really seen the point of the Water Wizard. You get all water spells, but there is nothing above level 1, so a Druid would work just as well. And, as a nature mage, she is capable of summoning very large creatures (animal or plant) and casting a metric ton of enchantments. I honestly think that a Druid could beat a Water Wizard without much difficulty.
Because a Water Wizard doesnt pay triple for fire and war spells. And Druid pay double for all the arcane utility spells. You could argue that Wizard pay double for nature spells, but a Wizard need less nature spells than a druid need arcane spells.
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My mate and I played our first non-apprentice game last night. He was the Necromancer and I chose the Wizard. I got absolutely annihilated. LoL. I must have don't something wrong...
We used the pre made spell lists and I really struggled to keep my mana up even with 14 channeling at one point. He had minions everywhere and I had Hug Inn, a Mana leech and a gremlin by the time he won. Most of the spells I wanted were so expensive to cast compared to his cheap undead.
Ah well. Maybe next time... or not.
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My mate and I played our first non-apprentice game last night. He was the Necromancer and I chose the Wizard. I got absolutely annihilated. LoL. I must have don't something wrong...
We used the pre made spell lists and I really struggled to keep my mana up even with 14 channeling at one point. He had minions everywhere and I had Hug Inn, a Mana leech and a gremlin by the time he won. Most of the spells I wanted were so expensive to cast compared to his cheap undead.
Ah well. Maybe next time... or not.
That definitely looks like a tough match-up using the Wizard's recommended starter deck. It could really use [mwcard=MW1J16]Mordok's Obelisk[/mwcard] or similar to slow down the undead swarm. [mwcard=MW1J18] Poison Gas Cloud[/mwcard] would work nicely if only the Necromancer and his undead minions weren't immune to poison. Did you get a chance to use [mwcard=MW1A02] Chain Lightning[/mwcard]? [mwcard=MW1Q32] Suppression Cloak[/mwcard]?
I think your best bet in that match-up is to [mwcard=MW1I28] Teleport[/mwcard] the Necromancer into range of your Wizard's most powerful attacks (preferably far from his swarm of creatures) and make aggressive use of your attack spells via [mwcard=MW1Q08]Elemental Wand[/mwcard] - preferably before he has time to get too many creatures out. Use [mwcard=MW1E18] Force Sword[/mwcard], [mwcard=MW1E02] Block[/mwcard], [mwcard=MW1E34] Reverse Attack[/mwcard], etc, to keep yourself alive, and [mwcard=MW1E06] Circle of Lightning[/mwcard] and [mwcard=MW1Q32] Suppression Cloak[/mwcard] to punish anything that tries to hit you. At least, that's how I'd approach it. But I'd probably still lose.
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My mate and I played our first non-apprentice game last night. He was the Necromancer and I chose the Wizard. I got absolutely annihilated. LoL. I must have don't something wrong...
We used the pre made spell lists and I really struggled to keep my mana up even with 14 channeling at one point. He had minions everywhere and I had Hug Inn, a Mana leech and a gremlin by the time he won. Most of the spells I wanted were so expensive to cast compared to his cheap undead.
Ah well. Maybe next time... or not.
I just beat a very good Earth Wizard book with my skeleton Necromancer. It came down to my ability to out creature and out curse. She was able to Dispel most of my "first line" curses but not the second line. For reference the difference between first and second line: Second line is the other copy/copies I keep of said curse in my book. The Obelisk, Suppression Cloak, and Orb are all nasty counters but they in turn can also be countered.