Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Player Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Aylin on December 07, 2013, 04:16:32 AM
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Several spells currently in the game feel so weak...either because they have much cheaper hard counters or they're just lackluster.
I think many of these problems could be fixed with minor adjustments.
Spell: Akiro's Hammer
Problems: Nearly useless if the opponent doesn't have many conjurations, can be shut down completely by a spell 1/3 its level and 1/3 its price.
Possible Solution: Give Akiro's Hammer the Indirect Fire trait. It's a freaking Legendary Trebuchet. Surely the operators would know how to fire over one measly little wall (or bank of fog as the case may be). This would prevent it from being hardcountered by Fog Bank, Wall of Fire, etc without making it too strong. It would still only be used against Conjurations, but at least now it has a chance of being effective.
Spell: Akiro's Battle Cry
Problems: Expensive and Epic
Possible Solution: Lower the price. It's a level 4 Epic spell, so it should actually be awesome, not just costed as if it were. The two most similar spells (Zombie Frenzy and Call of the Wild) also give arena-wide benefits, yet the others are not epic. They're also objectively better (Zombie Frenzy is amazing and Call of the Wild is decently costed for what it does). Akiro's Battle Cry should cost, at most, 10. Additionally, the Warlord should be included in the effects of the spell (reword to 'The Warlord and all friendly soldier creatures'), and it should give a benefit to Veterans (Friendly Veterans instead gain Melee +2, for example).
Spell: War Sledge
Problems: The quick attack is fairly weak for equipment items (actually it is the weakest attack currently on a weapon), and it is two handed. The full attack is decent, but even without other one-handed war weapons many players don't think it's worth using this. Considering that it prevents the use of a wand or shield (not yet released), the attacks need to make up for it. Currently...they don't. At all.
Possible Solution: Since this weapon is two-handed, it should hit harder than one-handed weapons. (If any of you have swung a sword, you know strikes with two hands are much harder than strikes with one). Increasing the dice from 4 to 5 on both attacks should make this weapon more appealing.
Spell: Hunting Bow
Problems: Against anything nonliving (the ever popular Golem Pit and Necromancer builds) this weapon is just a more expensive Ivarium Longbow. Even against Living targets you have to first attack and damage the target with an animal...something many players think isn't worth the time.
Possible Solution: Does this really need to cost more than the Ivarium Longbow? 3 mana for 50% bleed against the right targets in the right circumstances isn't really a good deal. Either the price should be 8 or 9, or the benefit gained should be useful against nonliving foes as well...say gaining the Ranged +1 Trait instead of the extra pierce.
Spell: Garrison Post
Problems: It's presence boosts the channeling of the Barracks, yet the Barracks can't deploy creatures to the Garrison Post
Possible Solution: Just let the Barracks deploy creatures to a friendly Garrison Post.
Spell: Earth Elemental
Problems: Weaker than the lower-leveled Iron Golem in every way (bad example, I know, but it shouldn't be this much weaker).
Possible Solution: Turn "Two-Fisted Power Smash" into a quick attack. This would at least let it take advantage of things like Charge or let it reasonably guard. As it stands now this thing is just too easy to ignore.
Spell: Invisible Stalker
Problems: Expensive and lackluster. It cannot be buffed by either animal enchantments or incantations, it has upkeep, and the attack can often just be ignored with a few pieces of armour.
Possible Solution: Add piercing (I think Piercing +2 would be good) to the attack to make it more threatening.
Spell: Bridge Troll
Problems: Not useful to any of the Nature Mages since it isn't a plant/animal, over-costed for the Warlord to take since it's more Nature than War.
Possible Solution: Turn the spell from 2 Nature & 1 War to 2 War & 1 Nature. This would make it more feasible for Warlords to take, while the Nature Mages (in general) don't lose anything
Obviously I've missed several several spells that could use some attention. I know that all of the above spells are from the 2nd two expansions, so it's understandable that some of them are this imbalanced. However, I think if they can errata cards that are brokenly powerful then errataing some of the weakest cards should also be an option.
Opinions?
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All cards are fine the way they are.
I dont want them to erratta or "clarification" any more cards.
When i play with new people they get mad because it isnt printed on the card, note most make sense malacoda mohkarti and tangelvine, but it really hampers gameplay if it isnt clearly written on the card.
If arcane wonders would print an "erattum spell tome" i would happily throw even more money at this game. But waiting for cards to be rereleased is killer when packs come out every 4 to 5 monthes
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I'd rather cards have slightly wrong text but be useful, rather than have the right text and be relegated to the dust bin. I can see it being a minor hamper to gameplay, but that's why I tried to suggest the smallest possible changes I could to make them better. I've never liked knowing that some cards/abilities/characters whatever in a game are useless when something could be done about it.
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I think your list of underperforming cards it's a pretty good one (though I think troll is fine as is) but I feel like you're trying to kill a bug with a hammer.
Altering cards after they've been printed hurts the integrity of the game a bit, and should be reserved for those situations where leaving the cards unaltered hurts more. I get that low power cards are not great, but they're much safer for the game than unrestricted Hand of Bim-Shalla was.
Basically, I don't think what you're proposing are minor fixes, because you're using such a powerful tool. Are there other tools we could use?
Also, it's weird to me how much attention Akiro's Hammer gets compared to Gate To Hell, for example. Generally, cheep conjurations are very good, expensive ones are not, and Akiro's hammer doesn't buck that trend.
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I agree with your list AylinIsAwesome and also would add to it Gate to Hell which was mentioned by ringkichard.
Unfortunately it can be hard to change them at this moment. We would need some errata pack if it would happen.
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I agree with Ringkichard. You might not be hitting them very hard with that hammer, but you're still using a hammer. I would rather introduce new cards that change the meta slightly, allowing previously poor cards to be more worthwhile.
For example, if we introduced an enchantment that gives your mage Melee +2 whenever they attack with a 2-handed weapon, the War Sledge would be a lot more valuable (as would any future 2-handed melee weapons).
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War Sledge looks to me like it was designed with Warlord's battle skill in mind. Its printed at 4, but will always swing at 5 on its quick and 5/4 on its sweep since no one else can use it.
Gate to Hell could stand to go back to the shop too.
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War Sledge looks to me like it was designed with Warlord's battle skill in mind. Its printed at 4, but will always swing at 5 on its quick and 5/4 on its sweep since no one else can use it.
All of the other weapons weapons the Warlord can use also swing at 5 for the same reason though. It'll be more of a problem after the other one-handed weapons are released.
Gate to Hell could stand to go back to the shop too.
Ooh, that's a good one I'd forgotten.
I see what everyone is saying. But are there better ways to make some of these cards better? I'm coming up empty for several of them.
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What about moon glow fairy. I've built a deck around her just so that way I could say she has been used at least once. Other than going out of my way to play her I never would... but just because she isn't good right now she could become as useful as the blue gremlin if they started releasing more incorporeal objects....
Cards can be released to make other cards good.
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What about moon glow fairy. I've built a deck around her just so that way I could say she has been used at least once. Other than going out of my way to play her I never would... but just because she isn't good right now she could become as useful as the blue gremlin if they started releasing more incorporeal objects....
Cards can be released to make other cards good.
I am aware that the power of cards is based on the meta those cards are in. Many weaker cards will be improved that way.
But how can Akiro's Hammer be improved with more cards? You could say more conjurations, but it does so poorly against them now that most conjuratoin-heavy builds don't even waste the time to think about it. And it would still be shut down completely by Fog Bank. There is almost no comparison between this and Moonglow Fairy. The Fairy's case is one in which the role it was created to fulfill isn't needed, but this is a case where it just fails at everything.
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Yes akiros hammer can be shut down with a fog bank. But if you put a wall in front of it yourself don't you shut down that potential fog bank?
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Yes akiros hammer can be shut down with a fog bank. But if you put a wall in front of it yourself don't you shut down that potential fog bank?
That's like saying the cure for a broken toe is to cut off your foot.
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Yes akiros hammer can be shut down with a fog bank. But if you put a wall in front of it yourself don't you shut down that potential fog bank?
That's like saying the cure for a broken toe is to cut off your foot.
Depends what the wall is. A wall of Pikes or a Bloodspine wall would not block LOS, and would prevent the other player from playing a wall on that border.
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Yeah that's what I meant play akiros hammer and put a non blocked los wall in front of it so they couldn't block los blood spine wall is 4 manager fog bank is four mana
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Yes akiros hammer can be shut down with a fog bank. But if you put a wall in front of it yourself don't you shut down that potential fog bank?
That's like saying the cure for a broken toe is to cut off your foot.
Depends what the wall is. A wall of Pikes or a Bloodspine wall would not block LOS, and would prevent the other player from playing a wall on that border.
I had forgotten about walls that don't block LoS. I apologize aquestrion, for my rude remark.
However, even doing that wouldn't fully solve the problem. Because of the awkwardness of its range, a Fog Bank could still be placed 1 zone away from the Hammer, and it would still block several zones from view.
Having to cast a Wall of Pikes to prevent your legendary level 3 War Machine from being hardcountered by fog is poor design either way. 16 mana and 2 actions just aren't worth that, especially since when Ballista comes out it'll outclass Akiro's Hammer, costing half of the the price (so 2 Ballistas for the same mana/actions), having a comparable attack, and not having issues with targeting.
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Turn one QC akiros hammer back center move forward one space and cast a blood spine wall in between NC and FC ZONES (extended to top of NC if felt that they would drop fog bank right in front of the hamma) is exactly what play I'm meaning with a follow up wall right in front of the hamma
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This is of course if you start in bottom corner
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For Akiro's Hammer, we could give it an Enchantment or Conjuration that gave it the Indirect Trait.
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Arkio's Hammer would also be better if its attack wasn't so lopsided.
Most conjurations are high-mid armor with low-mid health. (battle forges, temples, idols, etc)
8 dice with 0 pierce isn't as consistent for damage dealing as Ballista's 5 dice with 3 pierce.
Arkiro's Hammer will do more damage vs low armor plants and such, but in most cases Ballista's attack is better at destroying structures.
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For Akiro's Hammer, we could give it an Enchantment or Conjuration that gave it the Indirect Trait.
That would work
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What a great OP that I've missed!
I agree with all those examples. In fact, I'd go further and make Trolls War 3. If it's a humanoid, it's called a Soldier and is not part of Nature which is Animal or Plant (not really happy with Felella, faerie magic is arcane?). If it has a weapon, it is a Soldier. Trolls are a humanoid Warrior race. They are not Nature, just like regenerating Hydra and Gorgon are not Nature but mythological Arcane.
Spider should be an Animal. Barracks should be upgraded. Gate to Hell. There are just too many examples.
Nobody ever mentions the obsolete under-powered cards because they are just wasted opportunities, reducing the pool of creative competitive builds.
I would suggest you convince your local meta to adopt your changes. But such house rules to bring these cards into the game would be seen as sacrilegious by purists. So I better not.
Great OP, Aylin.
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If Goblin Bomber was a little more worth the effort, he could have had some neat synergy with Rise Again/Animate Dead for double blasting them.
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I had a bomber go off one time after an attack from Adramelech, do some good damage on both the Lord of Fire and his Agro Warlock. It Slammed the Warlord and Stunned the Demon putting him on the ground. I jumped at the opportunity and beat the crap (but didn't quite kill it). My opponent was very displeased. My mage to some damage too, but managed to avoid any effect. They make quite nasty guards if you are willing to take the same damage yourself.
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What a great OP that I've missed!
I agree with all those examples. In fact, I'd go further and make Trolls War 3. If it's a humanoid, it's called a Soldier and is not part of Nature which is Animal or Plant (not really happy with Felella, faerie magic is arcane?). If it has a weapon, it is a Soldier. Trolls are a humanoid Warrior race. They are not Nature, just like regenerating Hydra and Gorgon are not Nature but mythological Arcane.
Spider should be an Animal. Barracks should be upgraded. Gate to Hell. There are just too many examples.
I can almost sorta see why they wanted Bridge Troll to have some nature...but it does feel more natural as just plain War.
I definitely agree that Spider should be an animal...being in the kingdom Animalia and all. Not entirely sure how to fix Gate to Hell (aside from more level 2 demons and lowering the level from 6 to 4 or 5).
Nobody ever mentions the obsolete under-powered cards because they are just wasted opportunities, reducing the pool of creative competitive builds.
I would suggest you convince your local meta to adopt your changes. But such house rules to bring these cards into the game would be seen as sacrilegious by purists. So I better not.
Great OP, Aylin.
I think I will try to convince my meta to try the changes. They would need playtesting anyway.
The argument that such changes would make the game more difficult to learn or remember is probably the one I have the most sympathy for, but I still can't help feeling that having so many cards be useless (or bordering on useless) violates the spirit of the game already.
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For Earth Elemental, the simple addition of Vigilant trait would fix him.
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Torn on this. As this is a physical game, not digital, the best way to fix these underpowered cards is to release new cards instead of errata-ing old ones. This minimizes disruption and brings the underpowered cards back up to playable. However some things, like Akiro's Battle Cry or Barracks-deploying-to-Outposts, really seem like they should be errata'd into playability.
Here's some ideas for the non-errata route:
Akiro's Hammer
Release a new cheap Goblin creature. 6 mana, quick action to cast, 1 attack, ranged defense on 7+, 4 life, no armor. "All friendly conjurations in Goblin Surveyor's zone gain the Indirect trait."
Alternatively, make the Holy Strike promo (target creature's next attack gains Ethereal) a Command so the Warlord can deal with the Fog Bank easily.
War Sledge
Release a cheap War enchantment that can target and buff weapons.
Gate to Hell
I was actually thinking that the new female Warlock would have abilities that could help with this.
Haste: Warlock may take 3 damage to make any full action as a quick action instead.
Mana Strain: Warlock may pay 2 less mana for any effect she controls. If she does, she gains Channeling -3 until the next Upkeep phase.
More demons would increase Gate's playability as well.
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The incantation you mention would need to give a superior benefit if the weapon was two-handed, or it wouldn't really change much.
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Gate to Hell can easily be made more relevant if there were more demons to choose from. I can actually envision a demon swarm approaching the enemies doorstep... then BAM! Melee +1 to all demons.
Tactically, the 12 mana to cast could actually come out a little on the cheap side just from the threat of the follow up burn to most of the board.
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I hope that "old" cards will not be forgotten just because some "cooler" cards will show up in FiF or PvS. I agree on all those cards mentioned, that they need some "change" and i didnt see a solution in additional cards which will make old cards functional. I bought every MW product and i am using fully 90% of all cards From that 10% are those cards i didnt use because i dont play in certain way. Bad cards could be counted just by using fingers (less then 10). It is sad, that most cards belong to orc warlord.
I didnt see too much problem, in printing errated cards and putting them into sleves together with "old"card. Also, most of mage wars players i met so far, had no problem accepting new informations, faq and erratas.
Akiros hammer - indirect + piercing would be a cool solution.
Akiros cry - make it cheaper or more powerful
Goblin Bomber - explode as a quick action?
War Sledge - daze also for quick attack and daze + stun on double. As mentioned above, it is a two handed weapon = no chance to use wands or staffs or second melee weapon or shield.
and noone mentioned Animal kinship :)
What about small experiment :) just release errata cards for my country, and if everything will goes well, spread it into the rest of the world :) I would really like to see my Orc Warlord playable instead of be forgotten ;)
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I maintainn the best fix to poor cards is new cards with good synergy.
for Akiro's Hammer, I propose:
Surly, The Dwarven Engineer
Same everything as Otto except:
instead of repairing conjurations, as a full action it can add a load token to a war machine in its zone. for this turn, the siege weapon has indirect.
And now that there are other war weapons, I am ok with War Sledge being a niche weapon for the sweeping.
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Apologies for the potential necro here, but just wanted to say I just found this, and thought the OP remains relevant. Even after forged in fire, many of the points in this thread still stand.
But I suspect AW's strategy overall will be to leave most cards alone, and let the marginal ones fade into the background, as they are replaced by newer, more interesting alternatives.
The only shame is that some of the game's underpowered cards had such interested potential. The gate to hell sounds so groovy. But maybe they ultimately became too complicated to balance.
It'll also be interesting to see whether any of these cards become more useful with some of the new game modes.
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Well they fixed garrison post, so I think they just want to do lots of playtesting of fixes to make sure they don't have to errata a card twice. Also I think warsledge, Bridge Troll, and Akiro's battle Cry are all cards that may not be in top decks but are potentially good cards.
There's tons of other cards that aren't quite good enough to be playable, such as Susruko, or Tarok the sky hunter, but no one complains about them because the beastmaster isn't a weak mage. The real complaint of the original post was that the warlord is weak, and that has been fixed.
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What about moon glow fairy. I've built a deck around her just so that way I could say she has been used at least once. Other than going out of my way to play her I never would... but just because she isn't good right now she could become as useful as the blue gremlin if they started releasing more incorporeal objects....
Cards can be released to make other cards good.
I actually use her in my air wizard book. It has 3 of her 2 gargoyles 2 whirling spirits and 1 ooze
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What made you choose her over blue gremlin?
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What made you choose her over blue gremlin?
Ethereal attack and flight
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Bridge Troll? Whats wrong with bridge troll? :)