Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: HERO on November 20, 2013, 01:11:50 AM
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I'm still pretty new to the game, but I would consider myself a pretty good, well-rounded gamer who's had his share of competitive TCGs, minis and board games.
After picking up nearly everything for Mage Wars (don't have Druid vs. Necro yet), I wanted to play the Force Master because I think she looks the coolest. Sadly, after doing some in-depth research and class analysis, I'm a little confused of her purpose.
It seems that all the other classes in the game can function better than she does. When you compare her spell repertoire with respect to point cost, it seems that she's very unfocused and cost ineffective. Take the Wizard for example, a lot of the staple spells that people find essential are in the Arcane tree. It's no surprise why people consider the Water Mage to be extremely strong, capable of multiple styles of play and openers, access to cheap and plentiful Dispel/Dissolve/Teleport/Mage Wand, all while having access to any creature in the game for 1-2x.
The other classes also feature pretty decent abilities, but the main thing to take away from those classes is that they can take creatures. Creatures in their own school costs base, those outside costs 2x, and very rarely do they need to dabble in their weakest tree to take the 3x penalty. Why is it that the Force Master is the only class in the game that pays triple for all creature spells outside of the Mind school? It doesn't help that mind creatures are a complete flop with all things considered. Creature actions dictate the pace of the game a lot, and having a class with limited openers and predictable gameplay is just a little lackluster. I don't think the concept of solo play works very well in a game where multiple actions result in more dice rolled, and more dice equates to more damage while multiple creatures means more survivability.
If her purpose is to play control, I don't think she does a very good job at it. If it's about doing solo damage, I don't see it either (especially with the Bim-Shalla nerf). It's certainly not about supplying creatures, because she's pretty bad about that. A spell-slinger mage doesn't work either because you're going to run out of cards, and they have finite use/application. Aside from a few Grizzly teleport tricks, what is her actual win condition? What can she do that a Water Mage, or a good Priest, or good Beastmaster, can't do better?
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With an obelisk down, she can mind control your big creature and not pay the upkeep cost, instantly killing it.
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With an obelisk down, she can mind control your big creature and not pay the upkeep cost, instantly killing it.
Yes, I realize this. But is that all she has to offer? Like I said, a class should be able to offer something more right?
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She is a combat machine. Force field is the best defense there is. Galvitar is the best weapon. Her basic mage abilities are both very useful. Add to that her tool box of spells like mind control, charm, force crush... and I'm not too sure I see the problem. My usual opponent says he will just concede if I bring another FM to the table. :(
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She is a combat machine. Force field is the best defense there is. Galvitar is the best weapon. Her basic mage abilities are both very useful. Add to that her tool box of spells like mind control, charm, force crush... and I'm not too sure I see the problem. My usual opponent says he will just concede if I bring another FM to the table. :(
The problem here is that she's one person, with limited actions, with highly cost ineffective creatures, with bad matchups. She has absolutely nothing to deal with Iron Golems for example, and if you fought against a Water Mage, I just can't see her making any progress. If you manage to lock her down, it doesn't matter how much mana you spent on her to get her into fighting position, she's still just as susceptible to other mage's spells. If you know something about Magic, she's basically a Voltron caster, but with no hexproof.
If your opponent concedes if you bring FM to the table, I suggest you guide him here and take a look at some Wizard/BM/Priest builds. Having limited actions while being susceptible to disables and other mage actions is just pretty terrible.
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As mentioned previously, she is a combat machine. She is easily the strongest mage by herself, with the best offense and best defense of any mage. She can melt faces with Galvitar and Dodge/Block/Forcefield damage all day long. She can negate your creature advantage with Charm, Mind Control, Mordok's Obelisk, and Suppression Orb. She is simply a beast, and thus she needs a big draw back to keep her in check.
That said, the triple cost on creatures is a limitation, not an all out ban. You are correct that solo play is not appropriate. Instead you want a few big strategy. Include 2 or 3 level 4 creatures in your spellbook and you're golden. You then have options of going 2 big creatures or 1 big + mage at the beginning. If you can get 2 creatures + mage beefed up, even better, but the Forcemaster is best played super aggressively. Do not give your opponent time to build up.
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What does she do better than any other mage? The Forcemaster is the best solo mage in the game. Because you are attacking with her so much, you always have lots of spare mana to cast whatever you want. She is also the best at controlling the position of other creatures on the battlefield.
-Galvatar is the best weapon in the game. Equip it early and go in swinging.
-A built-in defense against both melee and ranged as an innate ability. Means you can afford to take more attacks, so charge!
-Force Pull lets you pull an enemy Mage away from his guard so you can use Galvatar's full attack.
-The Mind Control + Obelisk combo mentioned earlier lets you eliminate most any big creature threat in just one round.
-Swarms? <play Mass Sleep and Forcefield> What swarms?
First turn sprint and Battle Forge. Second turn Galvatar and Force Ring and sprint. Third turn you start bringing the pain while the Forge beefs you up - and you have at least 15 mana to work with. Charm or Sleep all the smaller threats, Mind Control the larger ones. Cast a Thoughtspore with Battle Fury on it for some fun.
Last Forcemaster game I played, I got in my opponent's face as fast as possible (a Beastmaster) and the game ended in 7 rounds with half his creatures asleep on the other side of the arena.
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I have used a 'few big' FM build with an excellent win rate versus many players and mages in OCTGN.
Essentially, DON'T play solo style, rather use Grizzly and Brogan. Bring out Grizzly first in general or Brogan vs FM, Priest or Priestess. The response from those mages is unprintable in polite company...
Bring out biggie plus force ring turn one.
Bring out Battle Forge plus an enchantment on biggie turn two. Usually bear strength if Brogan.
Send biggie forwards whilst deploying small armour, then weapon, then scimitar from forge and mixing it up versus fuzzy play.
Use force pull with ring to help positioning.
Has been very effective.
In reverse, the Mage I most worry about is FM with a Force field. That, and anything played by Charmyna.
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What does she do better than any other mage? The Forcemaster is the best solo mage in the game. Because you are attacking with her so much, you always have lots of spare mana to cast whatever you want. She is also the best at controlling the position of other creatures on the battlefield.
-Galvatar is the best weapon in the game. Equip it early and go in swinging.
-A built-in defense against both melee and ranged as an innate ability. Means you can afford to take more attacks, so charge!
-Force Pull lets you pull an enemy Mage away from his guard so you can use Galvatar's full attack.
-The Mind Control + Obelisk combo mentioned earlier lets you eliminate most any big creature threat in just one round.
-Swarms? <play Mass Sleep and Forcefield> What swarms?
First turn sprint and Battle Forge. Second turn Galvatar and Force Ring and sprint. Third turn you start bringing the pain while the Forge beefs you up - and you have at least 15 mana to work with. Charm or Sleep all the smaller threats, Mind Control the larger ones. Cast a Thoughtspore with Battle Fury on it for some fun.
Last Forcemaster game I played, I got in my opponent's face as fast as possible (a Beastmaster) and the game ended in 7 rounds with half his creatures asleep on the other side of the arena.
Actually, I've played a handful. Still consider myself new to the game given I've had <5 games with her. I've won all of them too, so it's not like I'm coming in all prissy.
It's just that everytime I've played her, I question the amount of spells I have in my book to my Wizard. For example, in my Water Wizard book, I have 66 spells and a crap ton of versatility in the form of Dispel/Dissolve/Teleport/Creatures/Hexes/Equipment/Spellbinds/Walls. In my ~45 spell Force Master deck, I only have a handful of Dispels and Dissolves, and not nearly as many versatile spells to cast. Sure, I'm missing the MC + Obelisk combo, but I'm also missing handfuls of Agony/Gate/Marked for Death/Nullify/Jinx..etc.
I've been reading other FM threads as well and it seems that basic openers for the FM is relatively the same. I myself have been going the solo +1 route with just her and Brogan. Her spell collection needs to fit her playstyle and thus, she needs extra equipment and supportive spells to fuel that "Voltron" collective. Oh, and I have 2x Thoughtspores and 2x Mage Wands to help with supporting casts of spells, but honestly that's it.
Some of you have already shared your experience with FM, but maybe you can share your books? I'm beginning to wonder if everyone's books look pretty similar or are there more diverse builds to play FM.
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Here are links to a few FM books, along with strategies and conversations about how to use the books and make them better.
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13104.15
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13123.0
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There's no way I'm sharing my book. ;)
There are many ways to play FM effectively. Of the various routes I have seen, the three most effective have been...
Few big as per my post above
Thoughtspore with push or teleport, plus tooled up FM
Solo with forcefield
I take your point ref a versatile Wizard book, in fact, my main is an Air Wizard, but I still have PLENTY spells and several routes to win in my FM book with even THREE big. Grizzly, Brogan, Galador. Two big is slightly better
. I would trade versatility for effectiveness most times. Clearly, a bit of versatility IS required.
Ps what is voltron collective?
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It's just that everytime I've played her, I question the amount of spells I have in my book to my Wizard. For example, in my Water Wizard book, I have 66 spells and a crap ton of versatility in the form of Dispel/Dissolve/Teleport/Creatures/Hexes/Equipment/Spellbinds/Walls. In my ~45 spell Force Master deck, I only have a handful of Dispels and Dissolves, and not nearly as many versatile spells to cast. Sure, I'm missing the MC + Obelisk combo, but I'm also missing handfuls of Agony/Gate/Marked for Death/Nullify/Jinx..etc.
That is kind of the point of the Wizard, though. He is supposed to be more toolbox-y and he is very efficient with his spellbook points. I'm pretty sure books for all other mages have around 45-50 cards, so it's the Wizard who's the exception here, not the Forcemaster.
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I've built spellbooks for all of the mages and usually end up between 50 & 60 spells. The Forcemaster does seem to come out with fewer spell options than the other mages, more often than the Wizard comes out with more. But you are indeed looking at two extremes. The Wizard is the most versatile mage, while the Forcemaster is the most focused. The question of the original post though, as I read it, was about effectiveness and not versatility. The focused strategy of a Forcemaster can be very effective. They might not have tools for every possible situation, but they have the tools needed to get the job done.
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I wanted to play the Force Master because I think she looks the coolest
If that is indeed your reason for playing her...then just use her Mage Card and use the Wizard's Ability Card (or whichever mage you prefer). You get your favorite playstyle, abilities, spells, and looks. Arcane Wonders has specifically stated you can mix the two.
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There's no way I'm sharing my book. ;)
There are many ways to play FM effectively. Of the various routes I have seen, the three most effective have been...
Few big as per my post above
Thoughtspore with push or teleport, plus tooled up FM
Solo with forcefield
I take your point ref a versatile Wizard book, in fact, my main is an Air Wizard, but I still have PLENTY spells and several routes to win in my FM book with even THREE big. Grizzly, Brogan, Galador. Two big is slightly better
. I would trade versatility for effectiveness most times. Clearly, a bit of versatility IS required.
Ps what is voltron collective?
Just Voltron, it's a term used in magic that represents a mage who builds himself up to be stronger and stronger. Normally he's Hexproof (cannot be targeted by spells and abilities), loaded with enchantments, equipment and other buffs so he can single-handily kill the enemy mage. This is pretty much the FM, minus the hexproof and without counterspells for the most part. With that comes the threat of enemy spells and abilities that target her and render her combat ineffective.
It's fine, I can share my book if you'd like. I don't think it's something to hide since we're all players trying to improve our game.
Forcemaster
47 spells, 120 spell points
1 Battle Forge
2 Battle Fury
2 Bear Strength
1 Brogan Bloodstone
1 Charm
1 Cheetah Speed
1 Colossus Belt
2 Dispel
2 Dissolve
1 Eagleclaw Boots
1 Elemental Cloak
1 Falcon Precision
1 Force Crush
1 Forcefield
2 Force Hold
3 Force Push
1 Force Ring
1 Galvitar, Force Blade
1 Gauntlets of Strength
1 Hand of Bim-Shalla
2 Mage Wand
1 Mind Control
1 Mordok's Obelisk
2 Piercing Strike
1 Psi-Orb
2 Regrowth
3 Sleep
1 Suppression Orb
2 Surging Wave
2 Teleport
2 Thoughtspore
1 Vampirism
I worked with 2x Vampires before, same with 1x Brogan/1x Vampire, and I've also tried Grizzly/Brogan. In my personal experience, you're better off spell-slinging with the help of 2+2 Thoughtspores/Wands to control the board rather than summoning another creature. I find Surging Wave to be one of the best spellbind spells because of the ranged Slam.
I'm very disappointed about the Invisible Stalker though, have you guys found much use of him?
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Well, man, I have to disagree with the whole "Singularity in Forcemaster" thing. First off, mana siphon is Arcane. Second off, Singularity means Black Hole, you know, for those "justin case" moments. Third off, I have this mana denial FM that I have not seen done well yet, and it's rocking booties. Every mage has it's creative side, absolutely every mage. Some ideas may not work, but there is never a lack of them, even though she was traditionally designed was specifically linear, The Forcemaster has an incredible amount of depth. Even more so now that Catdog was neutered (of course, for those not in the know, I do mean Hands of Bim and Battle Fury). For those of you still not in the know, I strongly urge you to stop reading, get on youtube, and listen to "Tom Ford" by Jay-z, followed by "Great Gig in The Sky" by Pink Floyd, rounded off with "Ramble On" by Led Zeppelin. Not for any real reason, they are just incredible tracks to listen to. In anycase, FM can get crazy, yo.
But be careful, man. There's a beverage here.
Dude.
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Hero,
I would consider including mongoose agility in the book you posted. Also, if you are worried about golems, include some lightning spells. I really like circle of lightning, if I'm making a standard 'supercombatant' style FM.
If you wanted to try a (slightly) different angle, you could try adding a temple of the dawnbreaker, defense ring, etc.
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I'm wondering out there, for the playtesters who tested the product, but what is the purpose of the Invisible Stalker? Seems overpriced and largely useless.
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Huh? What's useless about invisible stalker? Its invisibility trait prevents it from being targeted while it's invisible. Using its attack after your opponents' creatures are all done acting during a round with their initiative allows you to keep laying on the hurt on your opponent and using your mage actions for something else, like putting a nullify or block on yourself. You could also quick cast a block or nullify onto the stalker after it's used its attack.
Additionally, if you summon stalker early in a game against a mage that needs more time to setup, it can force them to deal with it first, which can be useful if you need some time to setup before going after the mage.
While admittedly the forcemaster doesn't need much time to setup, she needs to go after the other mage quickly to keep them from setting up on her or going after her first. Summoning an invisible stalker is a very useful way to stall your opponent for a short while while you put down a couple zone-exclusive conjurations, like battle forge, mordok's obelisk, Hand of Bim-Shalla, suppression orb or enchanter's wardstone.
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Stalker is still vulnerable to aoe attacks
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Stalker is still vulnerable to aoe attacks
Yes but aoe rarelly does alot of damage and are mana costly and will hurt your own creature/conjuration
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I think it is priced about right for the initial cast, I just feel it doesn't need the Upkeep Cost. Compared to similar cost creatures, it has an average attack and half the Life. Being Incorporeal and Invisible makes up for the low life and lack of armor though. Your opponent will probably have more creatures than you, meaning even if you delay as long as you can, he'll still be able to swing with one creature after you swing with the stalker. Still, he doesn't have to survive as many attacks as other creatures might. If the attack is ethereal though, it is going to hurt.
All of that seems to balance out. Average attack and average survivability for his cost. However, then we tack on the facts that he can not benefit from most of the enchantments in the game AND I have to pay Upkeep +1 each round? That makes him an inferior creature to me. If I could buff him up with my enchants, then I would simply equip a psi-orb and call things good. He'd see some use for me. As is though, I'd rather have other critters.
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I think it is priced about right for the initial cast, I just feel it doesn't need the Upkeep Cost. Compared to similar cost creatures, it has an average attack and half the Life. Being Incorporeal and Invisible makes up for the low life and lack of armor though. Your opponent will probably have more creatures than you, meaning even if you delay as long as you can, he'll still be able to swing with one creature after you swing with the stalker. Still, he doesn't have to survive as many attacks as other creatures might. If the attack is ethereal though, it is going to hurt.
All of that seems to balance out. Average attack and average survivability for his cost. However, then we tack on the facts that he can not benefit from most of the enchantments in the game AND I have to pay Upkeep +1 each round? That makes him an inferior creature to me. If I could buff him up with my enchants, then I would simply equip a psi-orb and call things good. He'd see some use for me. As is though, I'd rather have other critters.
Exactly, there's no way to make him better. For the FM, a Grizzly with enchants is infinitely more useful. Same with the Vampire, or Brogan. If you're casting for 15 mana + spending upkeep, the creature better be good. In this case, he's not, not even close. The only thing he offers is that he costs 5 points to put in the spellbook.
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My issues with the Invisible Stalker are that he's actually considerably less tough than a similarly costed creature in several matchups (Wizard in particular can kill him with just a few Arcane Zaps), You can't buff him, 5 dice is not enough to force much of a reaction (once your opponent has 2-3 armor they can often get away with ignoring him), and he has upkeep without getting a discount on his initial cost. Any one of those issues wouldn't necessarily prevent me from playing him, but all together I just don't see a lot of point. Whenever I look at him, I can't help comparing him to Whirling Spirit, and I much prefer Whirling Spirit (though not for the Forcemaster in particular).
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Sdougla2 writes the truth.
Again
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This is the core of my book
1 adramolcoh LOF
1 necro vamp
1 thoughtspore
1 force push
1 harmonize
1 battle fury
1 whirling strike
1 mongoose agility
1 evade
1 bear str
1 power strike
1 piercing strike
1 perfect strike
3 falcon perscision
2 cheetah speed
1 galvitar
2 force field
4 block
1 rouse the beast
4 teleport
Turn 1 harmonize thought spore bind force push
Turn 2 double move both to near center cast block on thoughtspore
Turn 3 prep both ADDY and NV play Addy if they don't react or turtle if they play anything that's scary play nv and save mana. Thought spore push closer/draw out a nullify or revise magic... force pull them closer and QC cheetah speed on Addy. addy smash face. Repeat as needed.
Some mages like to wear eagle claw boots so don't use thought spore unless you think they used nullify...even with boots on they still have to reveal the enchant. Pull addy/NV into a direction that they can cheetah speed into. From the center zone you can hit anywear on the board. If you think they put up block use mage to melee first. If needed block with thoughtspore. He reveals block and then he fly's again.
I choose adramoloch because he stacks burns and he has sweeping option. He is immune to his own attack and he is immune to walls. Using battle fury on him or whirling strikes so he can deal with swarms.
Problems with loaf FM
1 if adramoloch or nv dies you need to pack a resurection or 2. You have very little options to stall out a game so kill the op fast.
3 this is a reaction deck try to utilize the final QC as much as possible.
4 swarms cripple your ability to swing big so keep a circle on you
5 stun decks lock you down
There is little healing in this deck so pack a steal enchant and steal equipment to take advantage away from op.
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Forcemaster
47 spells, 120 spell points
1 Battle Forge
2 Battle Fury
2 Bear Strength
1 Brogan Bloodstone
1 Charm
1 Cheetah Speed
1 Colossus Belt
2 Dispel
2 Dissolve
1 Eagleclaw Boots
1 Elemental Cloak
1 Falcon Precision
1 Force Crush
1 Forcefield
2 Force Hold
3 Force Push
1 Force Ring
1 Galvitar, Force Blade
1 Gauntlets of Strength
1 Hand of Bim-Shalla
2 Mage Wand
1 Mind Control
1 Mordok's Obelisk
2 Piercing Strike
1 Psi-Orb
2 Regrowth
3 Sleep
1 Suppression Orb
2 Surging Wave
2 Teleport
2 Thoughtspore
1 Vampirism
I tend not to like the Mind Control + Mordok's Obelisk combination very much. It's 1/12 of your total spellbook and isn't effective against too many things (notably golem pit or undead via the Necromancer).
I'd suggest a 3rd Dispel and a Steal Equipment. I also don't see any Decoys or Seeking Dispels in there, so I'd put in a Decoy at least. I'm also not seeing any Nullifies... I like at least 2 per book.
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You could also quick cast a block or nullify onto the stalker after it's used its attack.
why noone commented on this, i saw this, saw stalker in a new way, wow it wont get attacked if i cast block all the time, and then, boom, he is incoporeal, you cant cast block on it..
im sad again.
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Check the timestamp that comment is 5 years old.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using Tapatalk
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Check the timestamp that comment is 5 years old.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using Tapatalk
i know, no rulings changed since then though, i was searching for comments on the forcemaster
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Check the timestamp that comment is 5 years old.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using Tapatalk
i know, no rulings changed since then though, i was searching for comments on the forcemaster
And, 5 years and much more experience later, I still think that you should be able to cast those things on incorporeal creatures. It makes no sense that Agony can affect a stalker and Block cannot. :P