Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: Tacullu64 on February 28, 2013, 11:01:23 AM
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This question came up on the BGG site and we can't reach an agreement so I'm looking for the official word on this.
Do enchantments follow the same targeting rules as other spells or may they target anything when you play them face down? For example, can I play a bear strength face down in a zone, the purpose being to bluff it is a trap?
Edit: sorry shadow thought I posted this in the rules section.
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The same targeting rules.
One of the reason you can't rearange face-down Enchantments is to provide you way to check (after game) if your opponent cheated.
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Yup, just as Gewar said they follow the normal targeting rules as determined by the target line of the card. Just because it is hidden doesn't mean it wasn't cast in the first place. And to cast, it has to use a valid target.
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The same targeting rules.
One of the reason you can't rearange face-down Enchantments is to provide you way to check (after game) if your opponent cheated.
Thanks for the reply Gewar. I'm with you on this one, but it isn't me that needs convincing and nothing short of an official ruling will do.
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Target: Every spell must be cast at a target. You may select the target only if it matches the requirements listed on the spell you are casting. Some spells may target objects with particular traits or subtypes. This is from page.12 of the version 2 rule book. It says Every. And casting an enchantment face down is casting. It sounds like this wont even convince them, but its right here in the rule book.
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Target: Every spell must be cast at a target. You may select the target only if it matches the requirements listed on the spell you are casting. Some spells may target objects with particular traits or subtypes. This is from page.12 of the version 2 rule book. It says Every. And casting an enchantment face down is casting. It sounds like this wont even convince them, but its right here in the rule book.
The opposing view to this near as I can tell is that the casting rules don't apply to enchantments and that the enchantment is played face down, not cast face down. Therefore, the casting occurs at the reveal step and targeting is checked then.
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Target: Every spell must be cast at a target. You may select the target only if it matches the requirements listed on the spell you are casting. Some spells may target objects with particular traits or subtypes. This is from page.12 of the version 2 rule book. It says Every. And casting an enchantment face down is casting. It sounds like this wont even convince them, but its right here in the rule book.
The opposing view to this near as I can tell is that the casting rules don't apply to enchantments and that the enchantment is played face down, not cast face down. Therefore, the casting occurs at the reveal step and targeting is checked then.
Rulebook, page 22:
All enchantments have two mana
costs on the card. The first cost, next
to the closed eye, is the casting cost
that you must pay when you cast
the spell and play it face down as a
hidden enchantment. The casting
cost is always two mana.
So playing Enchantment is casting it.
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Yeah, it seems so clear that I am having trouble imaging the counter argument for this "debate." It has always been the casting cost and reveal cost. Some strange folk over there :p
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Target: Every spell must be cast at a target. You may select the target only if it matches the requirements listed on the spell you are casting. Some spells may target objects with particular traits or subtypes. This is from page.12 of the version 2 rule book. It says Every. And casting an enchantment face down is casting. It sounds like this wont even convince them, but its right here in the rule book.
The opposing view to this near as I can tell is that the casting rules don't apply to enchantments and that the enchantment is played face down, not cast face down. Therefore, the casting occurs at the reveal step and targeting is checked then.
Rulebook, page 22:
All enchantments have two mana
costs on the card. The first cost, next
to the closed eye, is the casting cost
that you must pay when you cast
the spell and play it face down as a
hidden enchantment. The casting
cost is always two mana.
So playing Enchantment is casting it.
Excellent point. I may post that if I don't get an official word, although I don't think it will do me much good to post it.
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Yep, when you "play" it face down, you are casting. When you "play" it face up, That is when you are not casting....you are revealing. Casting is an action. revealing is not. But I dont doubt you need more then rules and common sense to get it though. Im sure we will see an official response soon.
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Everybody good now? :cheer: BTW I moved it to the rules section.
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Everybody good now? :cheer: BTW I moved it to the rules section.
Thank you for moving it. I really thought I started it here.
Does this mean you confirm that enchantments must be played face down on a legal target? I don't want to report bad information back to the other thread and further confuse the issue.
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Cast Spell Page 14
Announce that you are casting a spell and what the target will be. You may only choose a target that matches the target requirements listed in the casting line. Some spells will target a zone on the game board. Other spells will target a single object.
Enchantments Page 18
Enchantments are always attached to their target. Place the attached enchantment beneath the target object, but don’t cover it completely (so both players can see all attached spells). An attached enchantment moves with the target. If the target is destroyed, all attached spells are also destroyed.
Some enchantments target and are attached to a zone. Simply place the spell face down in the target zone.
Hope that helps
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I went over there to see what the debate was about, and I still can't see the other side of this. It appears there is some concern about cheating in the game - both for friendly games and tourneys - with hidden enchantments being cast on illegal targets, so they have decided that because it's easier to just let this happen that enchantments do not follow the normal rules of casting and targeting.
I gotta say, I am not sure how they get to that conclusion or why there are multiple people claiming confusion at the rules for this. Enchants clearly follow all rules of casting a spell, then after they resolve the Enchantment rules take over for reveals and such. *shrug* I am at a loss to understand their position or how this is "inconsistent" with the rules of casting spells as is claimed in that thread.
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Hello all, please let me know if I can be of help. Are there still outstanding questions about enchantments? Do we have another thread you want me to look at? Thanks!
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I went over there to see what the debate was about, and I still can't see the other side of this. It appears there is some concern about cheating in the game - both for friendly games and tourneys - with hidden enchantments being cast on illegal targets, so they have decided that because it's easier to just let this happen that enchantments do not follow the normal rules of casting and targeting.
I gotta say, I am not sure how they get to that conclusion or why there are multiple people claiming confusion at the rules for this. Enchants clearly follow all rules of casting a spell, then after they resolve the Enchantment rules take over for reveals and such. *shrug* I am at a loss to understand their position or how this is "inconsistent" with the rules of casting spells as is claimed in that thread.
It was a frustrating discussion but I think it has reached it's conclusion now.
@Gewar I used your reference. I don't know if it helped or not but thanks for pointing it out.
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Hey there Arcanus,
I think we're all on the same page here on the MW forums, but there are several people over on BGG that could use your Word of Law powers. I'm sure Tacullu64 would love the assistance.
The thread in question is here. (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/937941/illigal-enchantment-target/page/1)
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Hello all, please let me know if I can be of help. Are there still outstanding questions about enchantments? Do we have another thread you want me to look at? Thanks!
It is a thread on BGG. I am pretty sure it's resolved now, but if you want to take a look and give an official ruling it probably wouldn't hurt. The thread is titled "illegal enchantment target".
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Hi all, first-time poster here. I'm one of the folks on BGG who was arguing about this (uploaded the same avatar for your image-matching convenience). I wasn't the one who started it, or even the first person to question the rule or suggested something different than what folks here are saying, but I was perhaps the most vocal at the end.
The thread is there for anyone to read, but for those looking for a summary of the other view, it's mainly that:
1) Having actions which are not verifiably legal at time of play is awkward at best, and generally not a desired design trait.
2) The game is better for allowing bluffs. It costs the player mana and the opportunity cost of both planning/playing something else instead at the time the enchantment is played, and of using the card at some point in the future.
If you don't want players doing that, I would rather associate a penalty for revealing a spell with an invalid target than say you can't do it. Then players could weigh the risk of getting caught with the value of the bluff.
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2) The game is better for allowing bluffs. It costs the player mana and the opportunity cost of both planning/playing something else instead at the time the enchantment is played, and of using the card at some point in the future.
If you don't want players doing that, I would rather associate a penalty for revealing a spell with an invalid target than say you can't do it. Then players could weigh the risk of getting caught with the value of the bluff.
Welcome to the forums.
I cut your post short because I just wanted to talk about your second point. I actually wanted to talk about it on BGG but got bogged down in the rules aspect of the discussion. You can still bluff with enchantments they just have be put on a target that is legal for them to be on. That limitation could make it harder to bluff in some situations but the option is still available.
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That is a great aspect of the Mage Wars game, the bluffing of the various enchantments. Is it a Decoy? Is it a Reverse? Is that a trap? Did you just put a friggin' Ghoul Rot on your own creature to fake me into dispelling it?!?
I can't say I find the idea of just casting any particular enchant anywhere with no targetting rules even a little bit appealing, however.
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Wow! Thanks for letting me know about that debate - that was a good one! I just went there and posted the detail below. For better or worse, its the truth! :)
I would greatly appreciate your comments or feedback.
Hello Everyone, Great debate!
Casting an enchantment spell is considered casting a spell and is handled similar to other spell castings.
STEP 1: CAST SPELL
The caster will need to use a quick action, or his quickcast action to cast it, just like any other quick spell. The caster then checks the target to be sure it is legal, and also checks to be sure it is in range (up to 2 zones) and in LoS. If all are correct, he then pays the costs for casting the spell, which will include 2 mana since it is always cast face-down (hidden).
STEP 2: COUNTER SPELL
Players have a chance to reveal enchantments or use abilities which might counter the casting of the enchantment. For example, a NULLIFY could be revealed at this time.
STEP 3: RESOLVE SPELL
Place the face down enchantment on the target. Now it is in play. After the end of this step, and casting action, it can also now be revealed if the controller wishes.
We certainly understand the difficulty of managing hidden enchantments without your opponent being able to verify the legality of the target. We felt it was a "necessary evil" in order to allow for hidden enchantments. Hidden enchantments just add so much fun and tactics to the game! We had tried modified systems, and nothing provided as much fun and tactics as the current system, and we decided it was best for the game.
Some of you may disagree with that choice, and we respect your opinion. There are several on our team that would agree with you! It was a tough call.
In our design process we leaned heavily towards fun, realism, and flavor above all else. In some cases that makes the game less ideal for competitive tournament play, and it was a sacrifice we were willing to make in order to retain that fun, realism, and flavor.
Fortunately, all enchantments are quick spells, have a range of 2 zones, and require LoS to the target, so at least that much can be verified. If later it is discovered that the enchantment is on an invalid target it is immediately destroyed without effect. In casual play, among friends, that should only occur as unintentional human error.
I am curious, for tournaments, what you would want the penalty to be for revealing an enchantment on an illegal target? Since that could be a cheater, it may need to mean they lose the game. A separate rules team is working on tournament rules right now. Please share your thoughts on this. We appreciate everyone's feedback and always take it seriously!
Thanks everyone for the support! :)
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Yup: Like Arcanus said tourney penalties are is still in the debate stage.
But we do want the best tourney experience for our players.