Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spellbook Design and Construction => Topic started by: Werekingdom on November 15, 2016, 09:37:39 PM
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The idea behind this deck opening is simple, delay until the spawnpoints can overwhelm the opponent.
This means a lot on 4-9 mana creatures. It does include a Crusade Banner which can be used for a more powerful creature or as a detraction from the temple and mage.
Turn 1: 10+9=19.
-Move then Crusade Banner -7
-End QC Temple -10
Turn 2: 2+9=11 (works best if you have ins this turn)
-Tanglevine -5
-Astor Anchor -6
Turn 2: 0+9=9
>Cleric for temple 5-2=3 (any of the 5 mana clerics will work)
-Arcane Ward -2 (for Astro Anchor if it not despiled),
-Have a Astor Anchor or Tanglevine to keep the enemy mage locked down. If neither Tanglevine or Anchor is needed then just go in and attack.
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One of my friends made a book similar to this and harmonized the crusade banner then used dawn breakers initiate to pray on temple and then when crusade banner dropped creatures he would run the initiates in my face baiting me to kill them to teleport creatures into my zone
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Sounds like a fun strategy! How many Tanglevines are you running? Also do you have backup Astral Anchors?
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Why harmonize a banner?
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Why harmonize a banner?
Agreed. Even after 5 turns it's only generated 1 mana, which wasn't worth the 1 action, so it would need to be a plan where you leave the banner generating for 8-10 turns, which doesn't seem very realistic...
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I've harmonized a banner and used it to spawn Brogan and Aurora for free.
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I've harmonized a banner and used it to spawn Brogan and Aurora for free.
Why did your opponent leave it alone for 9 turns?
...and not kill you?
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Because not everyone plays a rush. And if you get out a GA or a few NVs, you can defend it rather easily.
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Because not everyone plays a rush. And if you get out a GA or a few NVs, you can defend it rather easily.
Even in a non rush book I would not allow this to happen. A Harmonised spawn point that pops to use? I would choose to pop this for my opponent.
Consider against a wizard. A single angel I would knock the guard counter off with something like a blue gremlin, negate the intercept, and use a hawkeyed fireball, that's 9 dice then you have wasted a turn of actions for nothing. In return I have used a toolbox attack spell and cards that are part of my win condition anyway. Thanks for the mana on my gate. ;) :P
The few Noble Vanguard are sitting in a zone and not doing anything? L2 creatures. then you have 4, I have 4 gremlins. read above.
The liberal application of blue gremlin and fireball solves this.
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Something
Something something
The liberal application of ... fireball solves this.
This. I subscribe to this. You're spot on ;D
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Because not everyone plays a rush. And if you get out a GA or a few NVs, you can defend it rather easily.
Killing you in 3-5 turns is a rush. Killing you in 10 turns is a slow win...
Even if your deck is uber-slow and wants 15 turns it can still Fireball/Boulder a banner before Turn 10, or it's fundamentally flawed.
I've currently got about 30 books, about 2/3rd of which are slower controlling books. All of them could easily take this out by turn 5, even with a Guardian Angel Guarding... It's worth it for them too...
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Good for you.
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Because not everyone plays a rush. And if you get out a GA or a few NVs, you can defend it rather easily.
Killing you in 3-5 turns is a rush. Killing you in 10 turns is a slow win...
Even if your deck is uber-slow and wants 15 turns it can still Fireball/Boulder a banner before Turn 10, or it's fundamentally flawed.
I've currently got about 30 books, about 2/3rd of which are slower controlling books. All of them could easily take this out by turn 5, even with a Guardian Angel Guarding... It's worth it for them too...
dude you need to stop talking about how good you are...
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Because not everyone plays a rush. And if you get out a GA or a few NVs, you can defend it rather easily.
Killing you in 3-5 turns is a rush. Killing you in 10 turns is a slow win...
Even if your deck is uber-slow and wants 15 turns it can still Fireball/Boulder a banner before Turn 10, or it's fundamentally flawed.
I've currently got about 30 books, about 2/3rd of which are slower controlling books. All of them could easily take this out by turn 5, even with a Guardian Angel Guarding... It's worth it for them too...
dude you need to stop talking about how good you are...
+1. Not interested in how good YOU believe yourself to be.
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ב"ה
Because not everyone plays a rush. And if you get out a GA or a few NVs, you can defend it rather easily.
If you try to go for a long game, the temple of asyra is just better. If you harmonize it instead of harmonizing a crusade banner, you could bring a creature every turn instead of two creatures only once.
Keep in mind that enemy creatures could probably get to your banner a lot before turn 9 even if the opponent didn't rush.
Killing you in 3-5 turns is a rush. Killing you in 10 turns is a slow win...
Even if your deck is uber-slow and wants 15 turns it can still Fireball/Boulder a banner before Turn 10, or it's fundamentally flawed.
I've currently got about 30 books, about 2/3rd of which are slower controlling books. All of them could easily take this out by turn 5, even with a Guardian Angel Guarding... It's worth it for them too...
I've never seen a game that ended on turn 3 or 4. A rush that rolls well could end the game by turn 5, and with avarage rolls on turn 6 (assuming everything goes as planned).
Now, about fireball or hurl boulder on a crusader banner, it has a few drawbacks-
1) A fireball or a hurl rock cost 8 mana and a quick action. The banner cost 7 mana and a quick action. to kill it will cost you more than the cost to create it.
2) A single boulder is not so likely to one shot a crusader banner, and a single fireball might fail in it as well. That would mean you just spent all that mana and all you got was making the opponent use that banner a little sooner.
3) Casting a fireball or hurl boulder require your mage to be within 2 zones of the banner, and that means you just went to the Paladin's face. Assuming the paladin is going for a melee build, going all the way to the paladin just make the game easier for him. Against melee builds it is usually safer to stay away as much as you can.
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dude you need to stop talking about how good you are...
You misunderstand me. It's not how good I am, I'm taking my books to be reasonably representative (and in my experience they are). It's what basic economies of actions/mana/damage can achieve over that same timeframe.
It's what many/most books and players could do is my point, making it an unsafe gambit. What one would achieve, not what I would...
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Now, about fireball or hurl boulder on a crusader banner, it has a few drawbacks-
1) A fireball or a hurl rock cost 8 mana and a quick action. The banner cost 7 mana and a quick action. to kill it will cost you more than the cost to create it.
That's absolutely true, but sometimes the lesser of two evils. You lose a little mana (and probably have to be prepared to use another spell on top if damage doesn't come out your way), but letting it run on hurts more.
It's the same as the double Surging Wave to a BattleForge - you are down an action and 3 mana, but for a lot of books letting it run is worse. Lesser of two evils, and one of several reasons why Forge is so good - you win if it stays, and you win if they kill it.
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Sounds like a fun strategy! How many Tanglevines are you running? Also do you have backup Astral Anchors?
I usually run 1 Astral Anchors and 5 Tanglevines.
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dude you need to stop talking about how good you are...
You misunderstand me. It's not how good I am, I'm taking my books to be reasonably representative (and in my experience they are). It's what basic economies of actions/mana/damage can achieve over that same timeframe.
It's what many/most books and players could do is my point, making it an unsafe gambit. What one would achieve, not what I would...
This game is a game of finite resources based on each turn. There has to be a base optimal benchmark or you risk running less efficiently than the opponent. An average game runs 6-14 turns, with outliers of 3 and 30 at the extremes. This allows for a finite amount of actions, activation, mana etc. The most successful books are those who are the most efficient. If is a brute force efficiency by bursting of high dice combats/attack spells or slower attrition builds where you out heal the opponent, while still wearing them down, then each has its own efficiency.
This boils down to what is the best solution to achieve my objective in this turn. Do I have the mana? Could I better use a different card to cover this situation alternatively. This is not what one player would do but the most efficient action would be. The fact that Kelanan is a very efficient player is a different story altogether.
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The idea behind this deck opening is simple, delay until the spawnpoints can overwhelm the opponent.
This means a lot on 4-9 mana creatures. It does include a Crusade Banner which can be used for a more powerful creature or as a detraction from the temple and mage.
Turn 1: 10+9=19.
-Move then Crusade Banner -7
-End QC Temple -10
Turn 2: 2+9=11 (works best if you have ins this turn)
-Tanglevine -5
-Astor Anchor -6
Turn 2: 0+9=9
>Cleric for temple 5-2=3 (any of the 5 mana clerics will work)
-Arcane Ward -2 (for Astro Anchor if it not despiled),
-Have a Astor Anchor or Tanglevine to keep the enemy mage locked down. If neither Tanglevine or Anchor is needed then just go in and attack.
Wouldnt it work better with Battleforge + Temple?
That way your Paladin could punch a bit while waiting for backup.
Your not really going to get a swarm going are you?
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Wouldnt it work better with Battleforge + Temple?
That way your Paladin could punch a bit while waiting for backup.
Your not really going to get a swarm going are you?
Then why not temple priestess?
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Wouldnt it work better with Battleforge + Temple?
That way your Paladin could punch a bit while waiting for backup.
Your not really going to get a swarm going are you?
Then why not temple priestess?
Sadly i think the answer would always be that Priestess would be better than Paladin/Priest.
Still it seems to me that Battleforge + Temple or Battleforge + Banner or even Battleforge + Temple and Banner would be better than Temple + Banner.
We want to melee with him and buffing him, should be a lot easier with Battleforge. I guess you could go for Eye for an Eye - no armor and lots of healing with Temple + Banner and creatures with healing.
Paladin seems slow to me. Take a long time to set up useful aura(s). I mainly play timed live matches (75 min ~15 rounds) so i just don´t think his good enough for that.
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Wouldnt it work better with Battleforge + Temple?
That way your Paladin could punch a bit while waiting for backup.
Your not really going to get a swarm going are you?
Then why not temple priestess?
Sadly i think the answer would always be that Priestess would be better than Paladin/Priest.
Still it seems to me that Battleforge + Temple or Battleforge + Banner or even Battleforge + Temple and Banner would be better than Temple + Banner.
We want to melee with him and buffing him, should be a lot easier with Battleforge. I guess you could go for Eye for an Eye - no armor and lots of healing with Temple + Banner and creatures with healing.
Paladin seems slow to me. Take a long time to set up useful aura(s). I mainly play timed live matches (75 min ~15 rounds) so i just don´t think his good enough for that.
You have a good point here Biblofiliter, after a few games I did switch over. What I'm trying now is:
T1 10+9=19
-Cassiel -9
-Battle Forge -8
T2 2+9=11
>Leather armor -1 (from BF)
-Temple -10
-Run 2
Cassiel can then Pray and give the temple 1 mana, giving enough mana to spawn a another creature.
As for why the Paladin over the Priestess, it is the Valor, the buffs to creatures are awesome.
Think of all the reasons why we hate to play priestess, she has high armor, expensive creatures, with mid to low atk power. The Paladin have cheaper creatures that can get huge buffs, and it includes war creatures which have much better attacks.
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Paladin seems slow to me. Take a long time to set up useful aura(s). I mainly play timed live matches (75 min ~15 rounds) so i just don´t think his good enough for that.
Paladin is not too slow, but the auras are - think of them as an occasional late game bonus, rather than a primary game plan (like Warlord with Talos).
Paladin can be very fast by spending T1 running to NC and casting a banner on FC, and T2 summoning a couple of knights off it. He gets a really fast start that no-one else can match, and that gives him his own niche.
If you are going for any kind of slow build up game, and using Paladin's equipment and Valour to protect/buff your creatures, then I think you'd do it better with a Priestess in all honesty.
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It is the same with all mage abilities. You have to work out which you are using as part of your main build and what are your more second choice and back up ones. If you are just playing for x school then what other x school is there? Also if you build it as a wizard then how bad off are you in points.