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Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: Reddicediaries on July 22, 2016, 11:36:49 AM

Title: Steal Encantment
Post by: Reddicediaries on July 22, 2016, 11:36:49 AM
Does Steal Encantment let a wizard use a forcefield or something similar. Steal equipment says you can only use it if you can legally atach it, steal enchant doesnt.
Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: Boocheck on July 22, 2016, 11:41:02 AM
Nope. Its mage restricted. Samé way forcemaster cannot cast mind control on Thorg :)
Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: Sailor Vulcan on July 22, 2016, 11:44:10 AM
but what about the golden rule? card text trumps rules as written?
Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: Kaarin on July 22, 2016, 11:51:53 AM
[mwcard=FWE05]Forcefield[/mwcard] has Forcemaster as its target so [mwcard=MW1I27]Steal Enchantment[/mwcard] can't move it to the Wizard.

Quote from: Rules Supplement Updated May 12, 2014
Steal Enchantment cannot be used to take control of an enchantment you are restricted from. For example, the Wizard cannot take control of a Forcemaster’s Forcefield. See “Restricted Spells” under Rules above. You can still move the spell, you just cannot take control of it.

but what about the golden rule? card text trumps rules as written?
Rules Supplement trumps card text.
Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: jacksmack on July 22, 2016, 12:15:29 PM
Do steal enchanment work on equipment with runes (the dwarf).

Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: Puddnhead on July 22, 2016, 12:41:15 PM
Do steal enchanment work on equipment with runes (the dwarf).

Steal Enchantment does not.  Steal Equipment would take the item and destroy the rune.  Extra cost for targeting a runed item still applies to the caster of Steal Equipment.
Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: Laddinfance on July 22, 2016, 12:44:25 PM
Do steal enchanment work on equipment with runes (the dwarf).

Steal Enchantment does not.  Steal Equipment would take the item and destroy the rune.  Extra cost for targeting a runed item still applies to the caster of Steal Equipment.

Why does it destroy the Rune?
Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: Reddicediaries on July 22, 2016, 12:49:33 PM
So laddin, which ruling is correct for my initial statement?
Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: Puddnhead on July 22, 2016, 12:53:25 PM
Do steal enchanment work on equipment with runes (the dwarf).

Steal Enchantment does not.  Steal Equipment would take the item and destroy the rune.  Extra cost for targeting a runed item still applies to the caster of Steal Equipment.

Why does it destroy the Rune?

Because the rune is specific to the Anvil Throne Warlord and you can't steal that.  I was sure I'd heard this officially somewhere.

Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: Laddinfance on July 22, 2016, 12:58:08 PM
You can Mind Control a Warlock's Bloodreaper or a Beastmaster's Pet. Because that is not a "Mage Only" spell. The same is true for the Runes.
Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: jacksmack on July 22, 2016, 12:58:47 PM
You can Mind Control a Warlock's Bloodreaper or a Beastmaster's Pet. Because that is not a "Mage Only" spell. The same is true for the Runes.

and i assume that the dwarf then would have to pay extra when using dissolve on his stolen equipment?
Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: Reddicediaries on July 22, 2016, 12:59:13 PM
You can Mind Control a Warlock's Bloodreaper or a Beastmaster's Pet. Because that is not a "Mage Only" spell. The same is true for the Runes.
What about forcefield?
Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: Laddinfance on July 22, 2016, 01:00:46 PM
You can Mind Control a Warlock's Bloodreaper or a Beastmaster's Pet. Because that is not a "Mage Only" spell. The same is true for the Runes.

and i assume that the dwarf then would have to pay extra when using dissolve on his stolen equipment?

Yes.

You can Mind Control a Warlock's Bloodreaper or a Beastmaster's Pet. Because that is not a "Mage Only" spell. The same is true for the Runes.
What about forcefield?

That's a Mage Only card, so you can't control it if you're not that type of Mage.
Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: Puddnhead on July 22, 2016, 01:44:35 PM
I guess you learn something every day...and now Steal Equipment has gone up a few points for me.
Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: Zuberi on July 22, 2016, 02:07:26 PM
Just to consolidate everything addressed in this thread:

Card Text trumps the rules. The supplement doesn't really trump card text, but will list card errata and clarify the meaning of text that may otherwise be a little confusing for people. In this case, the Supplement expands upon the rules for spell restrictions, telling us exactly what a restriction like "Forcemaster Only" entails. The rule book already tells us that it means you can't "cast or control" these spells, but the Supplement spells it out so that it's crystal clear that includes prohibiting you from taking control of someone else's spell. This means that a non-Forcemaster can't steal a Forcefield because of the spell's restriction.

With Ability Markers like Runes and Pets we have an interesting situation. No place in the rules or the Ability descriptions for any of these things does it say they restrict the object to a particular type of Mage. Only particular types of Mages can apply them, and they are restricted in that application to creature's that they control. However, after the application of the ability, there are no other listed restrictions that would prevent someone from stealing the object.

Stealing these kinds of objects with special Ability markers sometimes have very weird effects though. Basically, you control the object, but not really the Ability and it will continue to reference back to its originating Mage. Ability Markers are similar to Condition Markers. They don't really have a controller once they're placed, so there's nobody to take control from nor are there any spells that mention taking control of them. Taking the object does not impart to you control over everything attached to that object, and especially not things that aren't objects and weren't controlled to begin with.

Thus, if you steal (Mind Control) a Beastmaster's Pet, it will continue to get a Melee bonus for being in the zone with the Beastmaster (bad for him). If you steal a Priest's Holy Avenger, it will continue to get it's bonus when attacking something that attacked a creature or holy conjurations friendly to the priest that round (good luck leveraging that). I can't think of all the Runes off the top of my head; I don't think this would be a problem for any of the runes, but it is definitely something to keep in mind.

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: Puddnhead on July 22, 2016, 02:15:02 PM
The main rune that would likely cause problems is the Rune of Reforging.  I assume that, due to the rules around cantrip, that if the item were destroyed it would go back into the Anvil Throne Warlord's book because he is the owner of the spell even if he is not currently the controller.
Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: Kaarin on July 22, 2016, 02:16:25 PM
If you steal a Priest's Holy Avenger, it will continue to get it's bonus when attacking something that attacked a creature or holy conjurations friendly to the priest that round (good luck leveraging that).
Reverse attack?
Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: Zuberi on July 22, 2016, 03:08:23 PM
If you steal a Priest's Holy Avenger, it will continue to get it's bonus when attacking something that attacked a creature or holy conjurations friendly to the priest that round (good luck leveraging that).
Reverse attack?

That'd do it.
Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: Boocheck on July 22, 2016, 04:34:40 PM
As i realize that is nearly midgnith here
and also i probably drink up my last beer
i would like to ask a personal question,
what is Profesors Zuberi true job occupation.

Is it a judge, lawyer or state attorney?
each comment from you is like an enlightement yourney :)


Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: Coshade on July 22, 2016, 05:39:38 PM
The main rune that would likely cause problems is the Rune of Reforging.  I assume that, due to the rules around cantrip, that if the item were destroyed it would go back into the Anvil Throne Warlord's book because he is the owner of the spell even if he is not currently the controller.

You are correct. If you steal and item that has cantrip, it would go back into the original owner's spellbook when destroyed. Galvitar is where I had to learn that one.

**Side Note** The picture for Steal Equipment looks like an awful way to use the spell.
Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: Sailor Vulcan on July 22, 2016, 08:52:26 PM
The main rune that would likely cause problems is the Rune of Reforging.  I assume that, due to the rules around cantrip, that if the item were destroyed it would go back into the Anvil Throne Warlord's book because he is the owner of the spell even if he is not currently the controller.

You are correct. If you steal and item that has cantrip, it would go back into the original owner's spellbook when destroyed. Galvitar is where I had to learn that one.

**Side Note** The picture for Steal Equipment looks like an awful way to use the spell.

Wow, you're right! Why would she try to steal a lash of hellfire!?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: Zuberi on July 23, 2016, 03:21:31 AM
As i realize that is nearly midgnith here
and also i probably drink up my last beer
i would like to ask a personal question,
what is Profesors Zuberi true job occupation.

Is it a judge, lawyer or state attorney?
each comment from you is like an enlightement yourney :)

Nope, nope, and nope. Wrong on all counts. Good luck guessing ;-)
Title: Re: Steal Encantment
Post by: Kaarin on July 23, 2016, 06:09:41 AM
The main rune that would likely cause problems is the Rune of Reforging.  I assume that, due to the rules around cantrip, that if the item were destroyed it would go back into the Anvil Throne Warlord's book because he is the owner of the spell even if he is not currently the controller.

You are correct. If you steal and item that has cantrip, it would go back into the original owner's spellbook when destroyed. Galvitar is where I had to learn that one.

**Side Note** The picture for Steal Equipment looks like an awful way to use the spell.

Wow, you're right! Why would she try to steal a lash of hellfire!?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Lash of Hellfire looks different than what she's stealing.