Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: JasonBourneZombie on April 12, 2016, 08:01:41 AM
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Interesting rules question. A wizard has an opponent's face down enchantment underneath him. He holds his quick spell for that first quick cast phase.
During the action phase, before his first action, he chooses to cast seeking dispel on the face down enchantment using his quick cast marker. His opponent wishes to reveal magebane after the quick cast marker is flipped, but before the dispel is announced.
Is that a legal time period to reveal an enchantment? Rules say after any action or event, but I do not know if using the quick cast qualifies. If it were cast using an action, there would be a time period during activation, but this is a quick cast using the quick spell marker.
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I'd say as long as the seeking dispel hasn't been revealed, flipping the enchantment is legal. However, I'd let the opponent reflip his marker and not cast a quick cast if he wishes so.
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rule says: after "any action, step or phase"... turning a marker is no of these.
rule adds: after a creature is activated, but the quickcast is no activation.
my answer is no!
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This would all happen during one of the Phases in the Action Stage. However like Exid pointed once the QC marker is flipped the Mage is in the process of casting the Spell and would have to pay the casting cost at that point. The first chance to reveal Mage Bane would be during the counter spell step, however since the step when the casting cost of the spell has already been paid, Mage Bane would have no effect on this particular spell, as going back in time is not allowed in MW.
One note, since you were in the Quick Cast phase, you could of legally revealed Mage Bane before the QC marker was flipped and it would of affected the spells casting cost. If you are in one of the Phases of the Ready Stage you could only reveal Mage Bane at the end of each of those Phases.
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i answered about revealing an enchantment after fliping the QC marker (i think you can't).
now about magebane: the supplement says that magebane can be revealed after counter-spell step and will make 1 damage for this spell.
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One note, since you were in the Quick Cast phase, you could of legally revealed Mage Bane before the QC marker was flipped and it would of affected the spells casting cost.
During the QC phase, you can reveale after something.
if nobody uses his QC, you can only reveal ath the end of the phase itself.
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Right. The matter was revealing magebane during the action phase, but the qc marker was used to cast seeking dispel before an action was taken by that mage.
Steps are:
Initial quick phase ends.
Wizard chooses to use quick before wizard takes full.
Wizard flips marker to cast quick spell seeking dispel, but had not revealed the spell being cast.
Warlock attempts to reveal magebane
Wizard claims it is not a legal reveal time, and that the spell is seeking dispel, which prevents revealing.
So. There is no time frame between declaring a quick cast during the action phase in which you could reveal an enchantment before seeking dispel would prevent the revealing?
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i answered about revealing an enchantment after fliping the QC marker (i think you can't).
now about magebane: the supplement says that magebane can be revealed after counter-spell step and will make 1 damage for this spell.
Right, but seeking dispel prevents revealing in this case. There would be no real question about the timing if it were not a seeking dispel being played on the magebane.
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i answered about revealing an enchantment after fliping the QC marker (i think you can't).
now about magebane: the supplement says that magebane can be revealed after counter-spell step and will make 1 damage for this spell.
Right, but seeking dispel prevents revealing in this case. There would be no real question about the timing if it were not a seeking dispel being played on the magebane.
i didn't understand the seeking dispel targeted the magebane...
the magebane can't be revealed during the couterspell of seeking dispel (on the card), and since it can't be revealed befor, you loose it!
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i answered about revealing an enchantment after fliping the QC marker (i think you can't).
now about magebane: the supplement says that magebane can be revealed after counter-spell step and will make 1 damage for this spell.
Nice catch!
Magebane deals its damage after the spell that triggered it has been resolved.
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But it makes no sense
If Magebane is dispelled it can not be revealed (then it would stay on I guess)
Is anyone saying that Magebane deals damage without being revealed?
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But it makes no sense
If Magebane is dispelled it can not be revealed (then it would stay on I guess)
Is anyone saying that Magebane deals damage without being revealed?
if the seeking dispel would target another enchantment, magebane could be revealed at the end of the counter spell step and deal damage
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One assumption I made was that the hidden Mage Bane was not the target of the Seeking Dispel which would have been declared in the Cast Spell Step.
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The idea is that a shrewd mage could reveal magebane after the opponent declares a quick cast action is about to take place, but before the spell is cast.
This way the opponent preps a seeking dispel, but when he tries to use it the magebane is revealed before the seeking dispel can kill it. You CAN use this tactic by using the the end of planning, deployment, and initial quick cast phases, but can NOT interrupt a quick cast of seeking dispel targeting it.
My take away from the rules seems to imply you can't, but I did not find any sort of explicit proof and did not want to keep assuming.
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Once someone declares an action, then you have to wait for the next applicable window to reveal. This is why you cannot "respond" to someone declaring that they'll move. You have to wait until you reach the end of one of the steps in the movement sequence.
So for your example with the seeking dispel, you could reveal an enchantment after the steps of casting a spell, but not when they "say" they're casting a spell.
Make sense?
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Yup. In this instance seeking dispel wins vs enchantment revealing.
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If the mage who attached the Magebane also had an Enchantment Transfusion attached, would they be allowed to move the Magebane to another legal target?
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Seeking Dispel only prevents the targeted card from being revealed, so if they didn't target the Enchantment Transfusion, then yes they could move it, but only at the proper window.
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Once someone declares an action, then you have to wait for the next applicable window to reveal. This is why you cannot "respond" to someone declaring that they'll move. You have to wait until you reach the end of one of the steps in the movement sequence.
So for your example with the seeking dispel, you could reveal an enchantment after the steps of casting a spell, but not when they "say" they're casting a spell.
Make sense?
So an action "begins" once the marker is flipped or if the player says they want to do an action, not when they actually reveal the card they want to cast. I didn't know that! And I've been playing for three years!
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Page 8 of the Rulebook:
When you take your quickcast action, flip your quickcast marker face down and play any quick spell you have prepared for this round.
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Not yet.
Are we saying that the incantation "Seeking Dispel" that targets a "Mage Bane" enchantment is declared, then the Mage Bane can be revealed, making the Mage Bane no longer a legal target since it is now revealed?
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Not yet.
Are we saying that the incantation "Seeking Dispel" that targets a "Mage Bane" enchantment is declared, then the Mage Bane can be revealed, making the Mage Bane no longer a legal target since it is now revealed?
The ruling is the opposite. If the seeking dispel is revealed, no enchantment (including mage bane) can be revealed "in response". The original post asked if merely flipping the action marker (or quick cast in this case) constituted an event that could prompt a reveal to which the response was no. The reveal can happen only during certain steps of casting a spell and seeking dispel is a special case that prevents revealing
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I really think the original intent of the OP was to determine if "flipping" the QC Marker was the official start of the 4 steps of casting a spell, as least that is how I read it. And the answer should be yes....
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With the wording in the core rules regarding revealing enchantments being
you may choose to reveal an enchantment immediately after any action or event
at the end of phases, after creature activations, each step of attacking and casting, and move actions
I wanted to know if flipping the quick cast marker was an event that could be followed by an enchant reveal. Ruling was no. The spell must be revealed, targets declared, and costs paid before anything can be revealed. This means seeking dispel's effects apply.
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With the wording in the core rules regarding revealing enchantments being
you may choose to reveal an enchantment immediately after any action or event
at the end of phases, after creature activations, each step of attacking and casting, and move actions
I wanted to know if flipping the quick cast marker was an event that could be followed by an enchant reveal. Ruling was no. The spell must be revealed, targets declared, and costs paid before anything can be revealed. This means seeking dispel's effects apply.
i realise now the problem is you don't have the last (4th) version of the rules: the word "event", that wasn't clear, was in previous versions!
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Mmm. Time to replace the ol' pdf on my phone then.
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The rules say you can reveal after any step, phase, or action, and then go on to also allow you to reveal after an activation. The important thing to note here is that flipping a marker of any kind is not a step, phase, or action unto itself. Markers are simply reminders to let you know what you have and haven't done. So, to figure out whether or not you can reveal an enchantment after flipping a marker, you need to think about what it is that marker actually represents doing.
For the action marker, flipping it indicates that you have activated the creature. You are allowed to reveal after activating a creature so you are fine. For the quickcast marker, it represents that you have completed the Declare Spell step of a bonus quick action spell for the round. You are allowed to reveal an enchantment after this normally, but seeking dispel specifically prohibits revealing and overrides the normal rule.
That's the important thing here. The quickcast marker doesn't indicate that you're about to cast a spell. There is no warning step or activation for it to represent. It indicates that you HAVE cast a spell. You have used your quickcast. It is not a separate thing from the quickcast.