Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: echephron on December 08, 2014, 05:41:27 PM
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A recent podcast about getting new ppl into mage wars tells you to not cream them the first time you play. I tried to put no thought into my strategy, but i still creamed the guy and apologized.
I want some tips on how to lose, but i still want to make it look like i am trying and show them good strategies to emulate and not make it obvious that i am trying to lose.
edit: I mean losing their first apprentice game.
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A recent podcast about getting new ppl into mage wars tells you to not cream them the first time you play. I tried to put no thought into my strategy, but i still creamed the guy and apologized.
I want some tips on how to lose, but i still want to make it look like i am trying and show them good strategies to emulate and not make it obvious that i am trying to lose.
I typically when I play demo's do not play to win, but play to show how different traits and card 'items' work. So example, when I play the BM vs. the Warlock, I will bring out a Falcon attack with it to show them how Flying works. I will then have them put their creature on Guard and then attack again and show them how Guarding and Counterstrike will allow them to attack the Falcon. Typically I will then put on Regenerate on the Falcon and have them bring out a Darkfenne Bat and Lash of Hellfire. Show how Flying vs. Flying interacts and how Reach interacts with Flying. So typically I play not to lose, but play so they know how to win. Even if the play for me is sub-optimal it is worth it to be illustrative for the Padawan.
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The best situation you can present is a game between 2 new players, that way neither can accuse you of stomping them.
If you don't have that luxury, just stick to simple spell interactions for the first few games, which shouldn't be hard given the apprentice decks.
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Ok here are tips that have served me well:
1. Explain everything. If you make a move tell them why. "Ok I'm bringing my falcon up so it can attack next turn because it's Fast see?" That gets them to ask "What can I do to prevent that?" and lets you go into how to counter techniques, and when those counters work they also make your defeat more assured.
2. Build your mana needlessly. Cast Mana Crystals/Flowers for no reason. It's a good tactic to a point normally but there comes a time when you should be attacking and not building. Just make sure they start with attacking while you're still putting up infrastructure.
3. Go through their spell book with them before hand. "Oh Thorg here? Yeah he's awesome you wanna get him out quick." Tell them basic good advice before you even get started. Warlocks are awesome for this as "Go in there and set everything on fire" is a simple bouncing ball to follow. Likewise with a Beast Master "Have the Grizzly go murder peoples faces" is also pretty simple.
4. Attack their creatures, not their mage. Also attack their scrub creatures as opposed to their big threats. Kill Asyran Monks instead of Brogan. This lets you do them damage but keep their big guns in the fight.
5. Check to see if they have any questions every so often. A lot of times new players won't cast something awesome cause they don't know what the traits mean. Elusive? What's that? You mean I could have ignored your guards the whole time?
6. Don't cast the obvious counters to their tricks until later in the game when they have a solid lead. As above for example if they got guarding down pat then keep the Mongoose Agility in the book for a while. They're swarming? Don't put on a damage barrier just yet.
7. Teach them the joy of Wands and don't Dissolve them. Let them get the most out of their attack spells by spamming them on an Elemental Wand. Let em keep Teleporting you around with Mage Wands.
8. Cast weaker creatures than them and send yours in to die. Beast Master is good for this, especially against a Priestess using Knights or a Wizard with a Hydra.
9. Bring your mage into the fray early but don't attack much. Bring your mage forward and just cast equipment on them. If you do attack then go for their Mana Crystals and other secondary stuff. Attack a Mana Flower so you can explain Regenerate.
10. Don't even think in terms of strategy for yourself. Instead show off what makes the mage you're playing cool and let it go at that. Slap a curse or two on em if you're a Dark Mage, then explain why Dispel is your friend for example. The rest of the time just keep repeating that lesson after they've got down how to deal with it.
Your mileage may vary but these techniques have worked for me pretty well in the past.
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I want some tips on how to lose, but i still want to make it look like i am trying and show them good strategies to emulate and not make it obvious that i am trying to lose.
edit: I mean losing their first apprentice game.
Roll Worse
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Thanks silverclaw grizzly
I like 4, 6, 8, and 9
What do i do to get them to stop building up creatures in the corner and attack me? I guess i could just charge my mage over there(aka 9).
I do have concerns that they will learn bad tactics from my actions.
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Thanks silverclaw grizzly
I like 4, 6, 8, and 9
What do i do to get them to stop building up creatures in the corner and attack me? I guess i could just charge my mage over there(aka 9).
I do have concerns that they will learn bad tactics from my actions.
One of the things I have learned with minis players is to remind them that it is Mage Wars and the win condition is mage death not the number of creatures you kill.
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Thanks silverclaw grizzly
I like 4, 6, 8, and 9
What do i do to get them to stop building up creatures in the corner and attack me? I guess i could just charge my mage over there(aka 9).
I do have concerns that they will learn bad tactics from my actions.
What you can do with this actually is start pot shotting their critters and explain that success favors the bold :) Don't worry much about teaching them bad habits, if they get into the game and start playing regularly they'll figure out actual real tactics on their own. We all had bad tactics when we first started I imagine.
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I do have concerns that they will learn bad tactics from my actions.
Don't worry, you can always stomp them later as part of their tactical and strategic education. :P
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I do have concerns that they will learn bad tactics from my actions.
Don't worry, you can always stomp them later as part of their tactical and strategic education. :P
Yeah pretty much lol.
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what about using a worse spellbook? I wonder how much worse your own spellbook would have to be for them to stand a fighting chance against you when you're not trying to win. Making a large deliberate effort to lose is not necessarily gong to go unnoticed, especially if it's someone who knows you, right?
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I'd rather try to win, but operate under some restriction or penalty, rather than actively trying to lose. Maybe start without any mana or something.
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what about using a worse spellbook?
Yes, just use a standard spellbook :)
I consider it very challenging to play with them because important spells i often use are missing in most of these decks.
When playing with Newbies, i also cast attack spells on strong creatures with some armor to absorb, that survive the hit easily, just to show the side effects of spells, f.e. daze, slam or burn. That's a good way to burn your mana away ;)
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I'd rather try to win, but operate under some restriction or penalty, rather than actively trying to lose. Maybe start without any mana or something.
Before or after the first channeling phase? I'm thinking before, but not entirely sure.
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I was thinking just miss the 10 starting mana, although that might not be a large enough disadvantage.
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I was thinking just miss the 10 starting mana, although that might not be a large enough disadvantage.
I have found that for most players that I am playing for the first time that I could kill them so fast that it isn't funny even with the sub-par books that are provided in Apprentice mode.
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That will be harder without the 10 starting mana.
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Of course reacting badly to what they do is also a way to give them the chance. Cast conjurations and then a creature to guard it. Move slowly forward into the danger zone and maybe fire off some low level attacks or spells. of course you could go hand to hand with their mage and then retreat.
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I'm not sure that I'm sufficiently socially skilled to pull that off. Either they will realize that I am playing badly on purpose and get discouraged, or they won't realize it and take my poor tactics as an example to follow. Are handicaps like no starting mana and a worse spellbook not sufficient to give newbie opponents a fighting chance? If not then there are other things you can do, such as raising their life total or lowering yours.
On that note, there's actually a variant I invented that would be perfect for this scenario: Immortal Boss Battle Mode, aka Punchbag Sid format.
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=14523.0
Just give the newbie infinite life and see how long it takes for them to beat you.
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When I am demoing along the way I let them know I am playing to teach them how to play and not necessarily to win. I also say I am not playing here to lose or throw the game, but really to show you how the game mechanics and features work which means that I am not playing optimally to win.
I did have one demo at BGGCon that ran for 2 hours. At the 2 hours point I told him: My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
He then proceeded to place a Force Hold on my Brogdan and then he put a Sleep on my Grey Angel. Needless to say I was quite proud that he grasped those mechanics quite that well. I then brought out a Royal Archer and killed him a couple of rounds later. He was very grateful and was even able to explain what he should of done to win game.
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I didn't realize we were only referring to demo games. I thought we were talking about when playing against new players in general. Even if it's not the very first game, won't totally creaming them in the second or third game still be enough to scare them away? Hence my variant format which I linked.
On that note, there's actually a variant I invented that would be perfect for this scenario: Immortal Boss Battle Mode, aka Punchbag Sid format.
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=14523.0
Just give the newbie infinite life and see how long it takes for them to beat you.
Also, if someone really skilled started playing this format then that would make an ALMOST PERFECT way to measure a player's skill level by comparing their high scores fighting that player.
Edited above, I misspoke
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This topic is fun :D
I'd agree on most parts, just react to the opponents action in an understandable but not "perfect" manner.
Letting him kill your creeps is also very statisfying, so is the Harry Potter Wandfight. Just adjust to what he wants "the game to be" and let him feel the power of hi choices.
As previously discussed i am against the "build up until he starts attacking you" because it teaches bad gaming. Yes I played the same way at the beginning, but it just takes way too long and gives a wrong impression. Go hit him with a bitterwood fox and force his first action, then do as told above.
I really like the aforementioned idea of attacking armored creatures with attackspells to show off the conditions!
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I disagree with the idea that you should go easy on new players entirely. I think you should always play your best, especially when showing someone the game. Otherwise you are teaching them bad habits. They are looking towards you to learn how to play after all. Plus, I don't find it fun if someone lets me win, so why would I expect someone else to enjoy me letting them win?
Instead, I would recommend playing your best, but take it extremely slow and explain everything in great detail. Explain what you are doing, why you are doing it, what you are planning on doing in the future, and what they might do in response. Be completely honest. This takes away a lot of the surprise elements of the game, but allows you to still play your best and for them to understand what's going on and how they can compete against it.
They will still probably lose, but they should feel like they understand the game and that they have a chance to beat you if they stick with it. The reason creaming newbies might turn them off of a game is that it can make them feel overwhelmed and like they'll never get the hang of it because they don't understand what happened. But I don't think anyone expects to be a master of a strategy game the very first time they play it. As long as you make sure they understand what's going on, they should be fine with losing their first game (or three), and will probably be excited when they finally start surprising you and closing the skill gap.
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I disagree with the idea that you should go easy on new players entirely. I think you should always play your best, especially when showing someone the game. Otherwise you are teaching them bad habits. They are looking towards you to learn how to play after all. Plus, I don't find it fun if someone lets me win, so why would I expect someone else to enjoy me letting them win?
Instead, I would recommend playing your best, but take it extremely slow and explain everything in great detail. Explain what you are doing, why you are doing it, what you are planning on doing in the future, and what they might do in response. Be completely honest. This takes away a lot of the surprise elements of the game, but allows you to still play your best and for them to understand what's going on and how they can compete against it.
They will still probably lose, but they should feel like they understand the game and that they have a chance to beat you if they stick with it. The reason creaming newbies might turn them off of a game is that it can make them feel overwhelmed and like they'll never get the hang of it because they don't understand what happened. But I don't think anyone expects to be a master of a strategy game the very first time they play it. As long as you make sure they understand what's going on, they should be fine with losing their first game (or three), and will probably be excited when they finally start surprising you and closing the skill gap.
That might be too much information all at once in the middle of a game, which could also overwhelm them. And even if you take more time to give explanations so that they comprehend everything you say, it's not guaranteed to help them enjoy more and run away screaming less; it would make them constantly switch focus away from playing the game to listening to your explanations, and would increase game length astronomically. Not to mention they might have difficulty retaining all those explanations throughout the game, and if they do, they're probably not that focused on playing. Probably better to explain all that at the end of the game.
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we also have the apprentice mode to get people started
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That might be too much information all at once in the middle of a game, which could also overwhelm them. And even if you take more time to give explanations so that they comprehend everything you say, it's not guaranteed to help them enjoy more and run away screaming less; it would make them constantly switch focus away from playing the game to listening to your explanations, and would increase game length astronomically. Not to mention they might have difficulty retaining all those explanations throughout the game, and if they do, they're probably not that focused on playing. Probably better to explain all that at the end of the game.
Not really. It mostly just boils down to walking them through your turn as you take it. All you have to do is provide narration. For example: "I activate my mage, then I move him to this zone because I want to get in range of hitting your mage with a spell, then I cast this enchantment on myself because I'm afraid you'll dissolve my armor and this enchantment will protect me."
Besides that it's just answering questions. I might volunteer tips on occasion, but I really want them to make their own decisions and learn for themselves. I've found this actually improves focus on the game because they are better able to follow along with what's happening and what I'm thinking rather than just being lost scratching their heads. Nobody has told me it's distracting. I've gotten nothing but positive feedback actually, and the increase to game length is definitely not astronomical although learning games do always take longer than a normal game. But that's why I always play a few apprentice games before introducing players to the full experience.
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The game already has a built in function for giving handicaps.
If you want to disadvantage yourself against the opponent, simply lower your 120 spell points... build an 80 or 90 point one. If you want to give the advantage to an opponent, increase them to 150 spellpoints or so. Its simple, and the opponent understands the advantage you are giving them by simply showing them the mage card. You dont have to "play down", and then when they are acclimated they can just start playing a regular book. This also teaches a value for spell book point effeciency very early on.
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The game already has a built in function for giving handicaps.
If you want to disadvantage yourself against the opponent, simply lower your 120 spell points... build an 80 or 90 point one. If you want to give the advantage to an opponent, increase them to 150 spellpoints or so. Its simple, and the opponent understands the advantage you are giving them by simply showing them the mage card. You dont have to "play down", and then when they are acclimated they can just start playing a regular book. This also teaches a value for spell book point effeciency very early on.
That might work, but I'm not sure. Have you tested this?
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The game already has a built in function for giving handicaps.
If you want to disadvantage yourself against the opponent, simply lower your 120 spell points... build an 80 or 90 point one. If you want to give the advantage to an opponent, increase them to 150 spellpoints or so. Its simple, and the opponent understands the advantage you are giving them by simply showing them the mage card. You dont have to "play down", and then when they are acclimated they can just start playing a regular book. This also teaches a value for spell book point effeciency very early on.
That might work, but I'm not sure. Have you tested this?
yeah. Works out pretty well, having to skim or pad spell books to create handicap works pretty well for me when theres need for some kind of shift.
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The game already has a built in function for giving handicaps.
If you want to disadvantage yourself against the opponent, simply lower your 120 spell points... build an 80 or 90 point one. If you want to give the advantage to an opponent, increase them to 150 spellpoints or so. Its simple, and the opponent understands the advantage you are giving them by simply showing them the mage card. You dont have to "play down", and then when they are acclimated they can just start playing a regular book. This also teaches a value for spell book point effeciency very early on.
That might work, but I'm not sure. Have you tested this?
yeah. Works out pretty well, having to skim or pad spell books to create handicap works pretty well for me when theres need for some kind of shift.
And do you build a new lower-point spellbooks from scratch, or modified versions of 120 pt spellbooks you've already built? If it's the latter how do you decide which spells to exclude?
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It kinda depends... Its not something I have made any particular science out of.
Sometimes I already have some books built and can just go through and trim some options out and thin duplicates a little, or if going the other way add more core strength to, depending on the mage and overall build. Other times I have no books built at the moment and have to toss some together on the fly.
Its typically pretty laid back in both causes. Im not one to over think the process, I just keep it casual and laid back.
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The game already has a built in function for giving handicaps.
If you want to disadvantage yourself against the opponent, simply lower your 120 spell points... build an 80 or 90 point one. If you want to give the advantage to an opponent, increase them to 150 spellpoints or so. Its simple, and the opponent understands the advantage you are giving them by simply showing them the mage card. You dont have to "play down", and then when they are acclimated they can just start playing a regular book. This also teaches a value for spell book point effeciency very early on.
I like the spellbook approach to handicapping: but giving them more spellbook points can just give them more stuff to choose between, which can make it more daunting! So limiting your own stuff might be easier.
In general, Magewars is easier to handicap than many games as you have the pre-game of making books. When I play against people who I tend to beat, I'll often play a thematic but sub-par mage (e.g. a Dwarf Warlord with only Dwarfs as creatures), which then means it's more challenging.
There are also some specific tricks that I just wouldn't use against a new person: basically, stuff that they probably don't realise you can do! So basically anything involving enchantment transfusion for instance.
Finally, frustration isn't just about winning/losing. The swiftest change I've made was playing against a newish person when I brought out a Priestess who had armour up to the hilt, plus veteran's belt, plus aegis: he basically couldn't put any damage on her, and I had cheap heal anyway. The issue there wasn't that it was overpowered, so much as if you didn't beat it, it was boring. A bit like the old Magic the Gathering 'permission' decks where you countered everything the other person did: it just isn't a fun game unless you've got into that sort of deck design meta.