Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: Biblofilter on October 04, 2014, 01:53:41 PM
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So i just got my hand on the promo Card: Staff of Storms ;D
"Each upkeep Phase place a storm token on Staff of Storms up to a maximum of 4. Whenever you make a wind or lightning attack, during the Roll Dice Step you may remove any number of Storm tokens to roll 1 additional attack die, and gain +1 to the effect die roll, per token removed"
Who is "you"? or rather will this only work for my mage attacks or for all my creatures, equipment and conjurations?
Examples:
[mwcard=MW1C40]Whirling Spirit[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MW1Q08]Elemental Wand[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX1CKJ02]Wizard's Tower[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWC13]Selesius, the East Wind[/mwcard]
Finally: How would [mwcard=MW1A02]Chain Lightning[/mwcard] Work?
I understood it as 9 dice then potentially 8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1, but i´ve seen it explained somewere as 9-4-3-2-1
Edit: What about enchanments/damage barriers?:
[mwcard=MW1E06]Circle of Lightning[/mwcard]
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"You" and "your Mage" are the same.
It seems pretty clear... the Mage has to cast an attack spell (red spell) of one of these types to get the benefit.
Edit: The Mage would have to make the attack.
As to what happens on Chain Lightning: It is the same for all other +1's... the bonus applies to the first attack only. Your second attack would be one less than the original (without the storm token) attack.
Edit: Removed this bit due to difference in timing of the bonus determination.
The Mage is not casting an attack spell when it comes to damage barriers, so Circle of Lightning would not benefit from the expenditure of a storm token.
None of the other spells are attack spells being cast by the Mage, either... so none of them would qualify.
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DaveW is pretty much spot on except that it doesn't have to be an attack spell. It just has to be an attack from your mage. Currently there aren't any mages or weapons that do either lightning or wind damage, so this is mostly a moot point except for the promo card Lightning Strike. Any melee attack made by your mage while under the effects of Lightning Strike could benefit from Staff of Storms.
Also, if your mage casts a spell that is spellbound to Elemental Wand, it does count as your mage making the attack and it would benefit, but attacks originating from Conjurations, Non-Mage Creatures, Autonomous Equipment, and Damage Barriers would not.
Chain Lightning would be 9-4-3-2-1 like DaveW stated. Almost all attack bonuses only apply to the first attack in this game.
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This is a rather oddly applied bonus effect though. The bonus is specifically applied during the roll dice step, and it's implicit that it only applies during that particular roll dice step. However, you don't have to use all the dice at once and the "may" implies that you don't have to remove any if you don't want to. And... Chain Lightning has, if I understand correctly, up to 5 roll dice steps. So presumably, depending on when you chose to remove the counters, the Chain Lightning could do 9-4-3-2-1, 6-5-4-3-1, 5-4-3-2-5 or any other configuration of spending those 4 +1 bonuses.
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That is true.
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Cool! That's a pretty nifty niche use for the staff too - a potential 5 dice of damage at a target 5 squares away.
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Cool! That's a pretty nifty niche use for the staff too - a potential 5 dice of damage at a target 5 squares away.
How are you attacking that far away?
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Chain Lightning.
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gotcha.
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This is a rather oddly applied bonus effect though. The bonus is specifically applied during the roll dice step, and it's implicit that it only applies during that particular roll dice step. However, you don't have to use all the dice at once and the "may" implies that you don't have to remove any if you don't want to. And... Chain Lightning has, if I understand correctly, up to 5 roll dice steps. So presumably, depending on when you chose to remove the counters, the Chain Lightning could do 9-4-3-2-1, 6-5-4-3-1, 5-4-3-2-5 or any other configuration of spending those 4 +1 bonuses.
Would Chain Lightening become the source of attack after the first attack and therefore the "you" no longer applies to further attacks in the chain?
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I would say so.
If the wizard has staff of storms he can only apply 1 or more charges to the first hit.
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According to the Official Rules and Codex Supplement, the "source" of subsequent attacks with Chain Lightning is the last target hit by chain lightning, but the object that first cast Chain Lightning remains the "original attacker." Unfortunately, the terms of "source" and "original attacker" don't seem to be well defined. I believe the point in this distinction is that the source is the location that the attack is coming from, but the original attacker is still the person in control and making the attacks. The actual attacker doesn't change, just where the attack is coming from.
Thus, I would say that the "you" does still apply and your mage can use the storm tokens on any of the Chain Lightning attacks. Admittedly, this is just my interpretation however. I do not like any other interpretations which would change the targets of Chain Lightning into the attackers for subsequent attacks, though, since that would result in situations where Chain Lightning would be affected by their Traits, such as reconstructing a Devouring Jelly who was hit prior to hitting a Corporeal Creature.
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The idea of casting Sniper Shot on an enemy creature to boost your own Chain Lightning is sort of funny though.
I think that Jacksmack is saying all of the attacks past the first should be treated as if the Chain Lightning were the source of its own attack though, which is somewhat recursive but would allow the bonus dice to be forced into the 'first attack only' mould. You can still use Staff of Storms with Electrify if I understand this correctly, so trying to make it behave like +X ranged when it's a different ability seems odd.
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back to [mwcard=MW1A02]Chain Lightning[/mwcard], it says after the first attack, each rolls one fewer dice. So if you use all 4 on the first rolling 9 dice, wouldn't the second roll 8, then 7, ...etc?
So theoretically, trying to add an additional dice to each roll removing one counter at a time, would have the same effect as removing all 4 at once. but instead of rolling 6, 5, 4, you would roll 9,8,7 - so why would it be better to remove one at a time versus all 4 at once?
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According to the Official Rules and Codex Supplement, the "source" of subsequent attacks with Chain Lightning is the last target hit by chain lightning, but the object that first cast Chain Lightning remains the "original attacker." Unfortunately, the terms of "source" and "original attacker" don't seem to be well defined. I believe the point in this distinction is that the source is the location that the attack is coming from, but the original attacker is still the person in control and making the attacks. The actual attacker doesn't change, just where the attack is coming from.
Thus, I would say that the "you" does still apply and your mage can use the storm tokens on any of the Chain Lightning attacks. Admittedly, this is just my interpretation however. I do not like any other interpretations which would change the targets of Chain Lightning into the attackers for subsequent attacks, though, since that would result in situations where Chain Lightning would be affected by their Traits, such as reconstructing a Devouring Jelly who was hit prior to hitting a Corporeal Creature.
I believe, by analogy to the Codex' comments on Burst of Thorns, we can show that the source of the attack matters when we talk about using storm tokens. From the Codex:
"The Vine marker is the source of the attack, not your Mage. Thus, Burst of Thorns is not affected by any traits or conditions on your Mage. For example, if your Mage has the Ranged +2 trait, it does not affect or increase the dice of his Burst of Thorns attack."
So, we see that the Mage is not the source of the attack in the case of Burst of Thorns, and the attack is not affected by "traits or conditions" of the Mage. While the use of a storm token is not a trait or condition, I believe that we can make the assumption that the Mage similarly could not use storm tokens on attacks where the Mage is not the source (such as the second attack in a Chain Lightning spell).
I would think that, while the second and subsequent attacks are sourced from the immediately prior target, the traits of those objects do not apply to those attacks; the object is not the caster, only the source of the attack. This can be likened to a damage barrier attack... the damage barrier makes the attack, not the creature, so the creature's traits do not affect that attack.
Edit: Even if the Mage casting the Chain Lightning spell was made to be a subsequent target, he could not apply storm tokens to the third target for the same reason as above.
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back to [mwcard=MW1A02]Chain Lightning[/mwcard], it says after the first attack, each rolls one fewer dice. So if you use all 4 on the first rolling 9 dice, wouldn't the second roll 8, then 7, ...etc?
So theoretically, trying to add an additional dice to each roll removing one counter at a time, would have the same effect as removing all 4 at once. but instead of rolling 6, 5, 4, you would roll 9,8,7 - so why would it be better to remove one at a time versus all 4 at once?
Since the Mage is not making the attacks after the first one, the bonuses from any storm tokens may not be applied to subsequent targets.
Do we add one to all attacks when the Mage is wearing a Lightning Ring? I presume that the same should apply to that. The Codex says about Chain Lightning:
"Any modifiers that apply to one attack do not affect the number of dice rolled during subsequent attacks."
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So based on that logic, you can not add additional counters after the first attack with Chain lightning. The best you can do is attempt to really kill the first target with 9 attack dice.
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@V10lentray
As DaveW stated, any bonuses added to one attack do not affect subsequent attacks. You can think of them as individual attacks always of 5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 + 1 + ... dice which could be independently improved by bonuses but any bonuses would only affect the one attack being improved and not subsequent ones.
@DaveW
You make an interesting analogy, except that Burst of Thorns explicitly states that the Vines are also the ones making the attack, in addition to being the source of the attack. I shall grant you that the wording in the FAQ does make it sound like it is because the Vine Marker is the source of the attack that the attack doesn't benefit from the Traits of your Mage, and that is a very compelling argument. However, I still think it is because the Vine Marker is the attacker that prevents it from benefiting from the Traits.
With Chain Lightning it is very clear that the Mage is the attacker and the source for the first attack. The source then changes for each subsequent attack, but not necessarily the attacker, and the source is NEVER the spell itself like it is with Damage Barriers. Thus, either the spell benefits from the Traits of the Mage for each attack, or it benefits from the Traits of each individual source as it makes new attacks. I opt for the first interpretation as the second interpretation has weird consequences, but I can not say the second is completely invalid and you do present some compelling evidence for it. However, it most definitely does not work like a Damage Barrier and you can not say the attack is originating from the spell itself as the rules clearly say otherwise.
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So if I read this right...
1. An attack has a 'source' (point of origin) and an 'attacker' (entity responsible for the attack).
2. The source of the attack is where an attack is reflected towards (and possibly where things like damage barriers apply damage if triggered?)
3. An attacker may be an enchantment, (autonomous) item, creature, conjuration or other thing that exists on the gameboard. An attack cannot be its own attacker.
4. Bonuses (pluses to dice, piercing, etc) derive from the attacker and not the source when the two are separate.
4a. Occasions where the attacker is not also the source of the attack are extremely rare.
Two things strike me about Burst of Thorns.
Firstly, the spell is an incantation and not an attack.
Secondly, it states explicitly that it is not the caster of the spell that is making the attack.
This gives me the impression that if an attack card is used, the attacker is always the entity that casts the attack (otherwise Burst of Thorns would not need to be an incantation). Also, for the caster of a spell not to be also the attacker in any attacks then generated, it must be explicitly stated that this is the case.
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That pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter, but again "source" and "attacker" are not well defined terms. The FAQ for Chain Lightning makes it clear that they can be separate and aren't simply synonymous for one another, but we aren't sure if Traits and Bonuses derive from the attacker or the source. It's simply my opinion that they derive from the attacker because that's what makes the most sense to me.
Edit: Also, the chart in the FAQ on page 5 regarding bonuses to attack dice uses the term "attacker" which lends a bit of credence to my opinion. Just to counter DaveW's observation about the FAQ's use of the term source when stating that Burst of Thorns does not benefit from the Mage's Traits. It is a muddled situation.
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Two things strike me about Burst of Thorns.
Firstly, the spell is an incantation and not an attack....
I believe the reason that the attack is generated from an incantation and not an attack spell is related to the target of the spell. Burst of Thorns will target a vine marker, so it really would seem strange to me if it were an attack spell.
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So based on that logic, you can not add additional counters after the first attack with Chain lightning. The best you can do is attempt to really kill the first target with 9 attack dice.
Actually... if you really want something bizarre, you could let your own Mage be the second target, and then I do not see why you can't apply storm tokens to the next target. Something like enemy target with +1-3 bonus dice from storm tokens, then own Mage, then different enemy target with the rest of the bonus from storm tokens.
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Source is simply the point the targeting takes place from.
Bonuses derive from the attacker and the target. The attacker's bonuses (if they don't fall off like Ranged) remain with the attack, the bonuses from the target (see +Lightning) will vary and not carry over from attack to attack.
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See +Lightning... where?
Lightning +x is a trait of a defender, not an attacker. I don't get what you are saying there, sorry.
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He is talking about Lightning +X and how it is a Trait of the target (or defender if you prefer). Since it is a trait of the target, it only affects attacks against that target and will not affect subsequent attacks made thereafter.
Otherwise, he's agreeing with my interpretation of source and attacker, and that it is the Traits of the Attacker that affect the attack rather than the traits of the source.
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Silly people translating for me. :P
But yeah, my typing got ahead of my memory. ::)
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Ah... got it... thanks.