Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: Sirscott13 on September 19, 2014, 12:27:58 AM
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So the Johktari beast master seems the most controversial mage ever released
She has the fast trait, but to shoot a bow takes a full action!
Her wounded prey gives you and your animals a +1 melee when attacking, but she uses Ranged attacks!
I want to be capable of playing any of the mages, but she seems hard to get right. The regular best master with his quick summoning and Pet (good lord I love pets), seems like a way better choice.
Does anyone have any good tips on how best to use her?
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Ok here's what I do:
1. Forget the ranged bonus. It's cool but not amazing. If you want to get a Staff of Arcanum then go ahead but the bows are a bad idea.
2. Focus on the Fast and how best to use that. The obvious answer: Make her Elusive as well. Either Mongoose Agility her or use the Animal Kinship totem and some cats. Once she's elusive then give her Lions Savagery.
3. Use bigger nastier creatures than the Straywood. Bears, wolves, and the sturdier stuff is where you want to go. Also her best friend is Cervere(hey Lions Savagery for him too!)
4. Keep her healing and armored to the best of your ability. She needs to get in there and scrap with other mages so she's gonna take some hits.
5. Tangle Vine everything. If you're fast and they're restrained then hooray! Also Enfeeble is your friend.
6. You want her to be a run and gun ranger? Get an Elemental Wand and put Surging Wave on it. Slap a bunch of Walls of Thorn or Bloodspine Walls. Or just a Mage Wand with Force Push. Cheap spells like that you can cast each turn and still generate mana on are great.
7. Look out for Arcane Corruption because you're gonna probably want to buff yourself with Rhino Hide and Bear Strength. Also Enfeeble can NOT be your friend when it's cast at you(though it won't hurt you that bad) and Agony can be a pain too.
That's just what I can think of off the top of my head.
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The key to my Johktari Beastmaster build is to try to maintain range 2 while my Lair handles the summoning. If my opponent chases me, I can use a combination of Teleport, Tanglevine, Surging Wave, Mongoose Agility, and hindering to limit the number of attacks my opponent gets against me, and to regain range 2. While running away, I curse them, throw attack spells at them, and savage them with my animals. If they fight my creatures, I can attack repeatedly with a bow.
I open with a turn 1 Lair. If they are being extremely aggressive, I place it in my NC. If they are not being extremely aggressive, I play it in my FC.
Good candidates for creatures to pump out of the Lair include Timber Wolf, Emerald Tegu, and Dire Wolf. Note that Dire Wolves and Emerald Tegu are awful against Nonliving creatures. I've been debating the merits of including Thunderift Falcons as an option against Forcemasters and Necromancers. Also include Galador as a solution for Incorporeal objects and Lightning +X creatures.
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At the risk of sounding a bit snarky...don't. Use Straywood instead.
At least the Straywood BM's abilities synergize well, and don't actively hinder each other. And the Straywood BM isn't instantly crippled as soon as the Forcemaster (usually solo-ish) or Necromancer (nothing living) hit the table.
Fact is, Johktari is just a bad design, unfortunately. Oddly enough, I think both BMs would have been better if Straywood had been given the +1 Ranged, and Johktari the +1 Melee. That and removing the "living" requirement from Wounded Prey would have solved *all* of the Johktari's issues, imo.
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Yeah she seems counter productive. While the above posts do offer some strategy, it is nothing compared to my strategy with other mages. My first choice for a beast master build is a harmonized lair with a Pet wolf and Redclaw guarding it. Then Fellela enchants all my deployed animals while I am out spamming level one creatures and force pushing mages through a wall of thorns (I just get too happy when a weak force push on a mage through a wall of thorns resolves in me using 10 attack dice)
With the Johktari beast master, I can still use mostly the same strategy, but I loose the ability to spam level one creatures and that was a key component in my strategy. Having a falcon attack with a staff of beasts boost is highly effective on ruining a mages strategy. I like the wounded prey marker but on incorporeal, skeletons, and zombies it is entirely useless. Its like trying to fight a warlock as a druid when she plays a necromancer. The archery is ok when combined with hawk eye and the ability to cause bleed with her bow, but I end up using a quick cast teleport to get me into range just so I can use the freaking attack.
I wish there was an enchantment or incantation that allowed you to move and take a full action. she would be so much better
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The key to my Johktari Beastmaster build is to try to maintain range 2 while my Lair handles the summoning. If my opponent chases me, I can use a combination of Teleport, Tanglevine, Surging Wave, Mongoose Agility, and hindering to limit the number of attacks my opponent gets against me, and to regain range 2. While running away, I curse them, throw attack spells at them, and savage them with my animals. If they fight my creatures, I can attack repeatedly with a bow.
I open with a turn 1 Lair. If they are being extremely aggressive, I place it in my NC. If they are not being extremely aggressive, I play it in my FC.
Good candidates for creatures to pump out of the Lair include Timber Wolf, Emerald Tegu, and Dire Wolf. Note that Dire Wolves and Emerald Tegu are awful against Nonliving creatures. I've been debating the merits of including Thunderift Falcons as an option against Forcemasters and Necromancers. Also include Galador as a solution for Incorporeal objects and Lightning +X creatures.
So the Johktari beast master seems the most controversial mage ever released
She has the fast trait, but to shoot a bow takes a full action!
Her wounded prey gives you and your animals a +1 melee when attacking, but she uses Ranged attacks!
I want to be capable of playing any of the mages, but she seems hard to get right. The regular best master with his quick summoning and Pet (good lord I love pets), seems like a way better choice.
Does anyone have any good tips on how best to use her?
Relatively recently I lost to schwenkgott's johktari beastmaster and he said that she is already a powerful mage and people don't give her enough credit. It seems that she is meant to play a few big kiting strategy like the one sdougla2 described.
Now that I think of it it seems like most if not all non-spell ranged attacks are full actions. I suspect this is actually the reason she has innate fast. It would probably be more difficult for a mage that wasn't fast to position herself for ranged attacks like the johktari beastmaster does. Plus, having innate fast means she doesn't need to waste a quick cast action on a teleport whenever she wants to shoot soon, with her animals hindering the enemy and maybe with a mongoose agility and some defensive stuff on her, she can use her quick cast for something else instead of wasting teleports, and her animals (and maybe some other things too) can buy her time or tempo.
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I find she does often need to waste her quick cast on Teleport or Force Push to get herself into a position where she can use her bow's ranged attack (which has a minimum range of 1). That, or she's going to spend every other round repositioning and unable to either attack with her bow or summon a creature. On top of that, bows are two-handed weapons, so you can't equip a bow and a Mage Wand (of Teleport or Force Push or whatever), so she burns through positioning spells rather quickly. It's very hard to "kite" with her effectively - although I'm sure a top player could find a way from time to time.
Next time I play her, I'm thinking of going melee (using totems and melee weapon) instead of ranged weapons to better make use of her Wounded Prey ability. Of course, it makes me wonder again why I'm not going with the Straywood Beastmaster, since he has melee +1 (and is only a Cheetah Speed away from having Fast). Besides, Wounded Prey isn't quite Marked For Death because it only works on a damaged non-mage living creature. It doesn't help you win the game, only to clear a path if your opponent cooperates by sticking some living creatures in your way.
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Except innate fast can't be dispelled, and neither can the wounded prey marker. Wounded prey marker can be reused again and again, since it returns to her when the creature is destroyed or has no damage on it. She's really good at focusing things down. I suspect that part of the problem is that people see the bow and its powerful attack and think they have to be using it all the time in order for it to be worth it. The bow's benefits are conditional on whether her animals attack and damage something. Maybe the problem is her early game. mongoose agility is a level 1 spell, Johktari bm doesn't want to run 6 dispels, and there is currently no way to counter the elusive trait directly besides Victorian Gryffin, which is a promo. You can counter movement, or you can counter an attack, but you can't directly counter the elusive trait. While it's normally not an issue, it might be part of why people have trouble positioning the Johktari Beastmaster without using things like teleport and force push. Of course, another part of it is that other mages use teleport and force push and combine that with things like walls and vine markers and other hindering creatures... I suspect astral anchor is going to make it easier to play the johkari bm using all three of her abilities, rather than relying on "innate fast mage" cheese. That being said, such a johktari beastmaster is probably already very good in certain matchups. I suspect her best matchups would tend to be against turtling builds. If the enemy doesn't move or isn't chasing you, you have more of an advantage. Walls that block movement are probably also very useful against her.
Now that I think of it, undead creatures tend to have less life than living creatures (although the zombies have resilient, but their mobility kind of sucks), and nonliving creatures in general have finite life. Furthermore, all but two of the non-undead, nonliving creatures currently in the game can't gain armor. The first exception, Iron Golem has slow, and the second, Talos, takes more time and resources to summon. The Johktari Beastmaster will generally want to win before Talos is summoned, or destroy his outposts. Outposts often have some armor, so it might actually be a good idea to include 1-2 "Tooth and Nail". When she needs more mana in a round, she can deploy timber wolf, and when she doesn't (like when she wants to use her bow) she can deploy something else, like a dire wolf or maybe even the giant wolf spider.
And I just realized that a Johktari giant wolf spider strategy soon might actually be viable after all, if it isn't already.
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If you want to maximize the Fast trait, you should seriously consider hitting the opposing mage with [mwcard=MW1E14]Enfeeble[/mwcard]. I have recently discovered the merits of this card. It's incredible. It will draw out a dispel at the least and can easily win you the game. You'll only have to re-position once every 3 rounds if they are still foolishly moving toward you. I think this card could be very strong in the Johktari book.
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After playing some games with the Johktari Beastmaster, I tend to say: This mage really can kick ass!
BUT ... to do that, you need to focus on the mages abilities. If you're not doing this, use the "old" Beastmaster instead.
To bring the Johktari Beastmaster to it's full potential, you have to see the following:
1) Archery Skill: You want to use a bow with the Johktari. If you do so, you also want to use Hawkeye and Akiros Favor (6 Dice, Piercing 1, Range 2, Reroll), use Surging Wave, Knockdown or Sniper Shot against Defenses.
2) Wounded Prey: The Johktari Beastmaster is a Huntress, who is best at killing enemy living creatures with her beasts. Use that to your advantage. Kill all enemy creatures faster than they can be spawned and your opponent might give up early.
3) If you use a bow, your full action is often used for attacking, that means
a) you will save mana,
b) you cannot summon a creature and
c) you cannot move
4) There are three way to get rid of your saved mana.
a) attack spells boosted with the same enchants mentioned above.
b) Fellella using enchants and curses.
c) Using a Lair.
5) If you use the bow, you want to be able to deal damage with it very often, meaning you have to prevent enemies moving in your zone (in your minimal range). Attack spells and Fellella are not very helpful with that. Lair is the best choice here. The "old" Beastmaster does not need a Lair, he can summon 2 creatures in a round with his Quick Summon ability.
6) This lair has high HP and should be placed aggressively between you and the enemy starting corner, because nature creatures want to be in melee range asap and block/hinder the enemy from moving to your Johktari.
7) With this setup done (bringing an animal each turn, attacking with bow from afar, using attack spells, enchantments or equipment with your QC), you can do enormous amounts of damage each round ... and the flow of attacking will never stop.
The enemy has to deal with the constant pressure from your animals and the rain of arrows. If he's focussing on your mage or the lair, bring out some armor and let the beasts guard. If he tries to deal with your beasts, let him waste his actions like that and focus down the enemy creatures one by one. Shoot first for the wound, add wounded prey and let your beasts eat.
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After playing some games with the Johktari Beastmaster, I tend to say: This mage really can kick ass!
BUT ... to do that, you need to focus on the mages abilities. If you're not doing this, use the "old" Beastmaster instead.
To bring the Johktari Beastmaster to it's full potential, you have to see the following:
1) Archery Skill: You want to use a bow with the Johktari. If you do so, you also want to use Hawkeye and Akiros Favor (6 Dice, Piercing 1, Range 2, Reroll), use Surging Wave, Knockdown or Sniper Shot against Defenses.
2) Wounded Prey: The Johktari Beastmaster is a Huntress, who is best at killing enemy living creatures with her beasts. Use that to your advantage. Kill all enemy creatures faster than they can be spawned and your opponent might give up early.
3) If you use a bow, your full action is often used for attacking, that means
a) you will save mana,
b) you cannot summon a creature and
c) you cannot move
4) There are three way to get rid of your saved mana.
a) attack spells boosted with the same enchants mentioned above.
b) Fellella using enchants and curses.
c) Using a Lair.
5) If you use the bow, you want to be able to deal damage with it very often, meaning you have to prevent enemies moving in your zone (in your minimal range). Attack spells and Fellella are not very helpful with that. Lair is the best choice here. The "old" Beastmaster does not need a Lair, he can summon 2 creatures in a round with his Quick Summon ability.
6) This lair has high HP and should be placed aggressively between you and the enemy starting corner, because nature creatures want to be in melee range asap and block/hinder the enemy from moving to your Johktari.
7) With this setup done (bringing an animal each turn, attacking with bow from afar, using attack spells, enchantments or equipment with your QC), you can do enormous amounts of damage each round ... and the flow of attacking will never stop.
The enemy has to deal with the constant pressure from your animals and the rain of arrows. If he's focussing on your mage or the lair, bring out some armor and let the beasts guard. If he tries to deal with your beasts, let him waste his actions like that and focus down the enemy creatures one by one. Shoot first for the wound, add wounded prey and let your beasts eat.
Great ideas! Thanks for sharing.
I recently tried opening with Grimson Deadeye. After all, what better to support an archer with but another archer? To give you time to set up your covering fire just drop him in the start zone. Creatures can provide melee protection from rushing opponents that make it through the approaching fire. Combined with the mage and her bow you can deliver up to 10+ dice attacks at range two. Based on opponents strategy you add the bow next and advance one zone to give you options for placing your lair or add a Melee capable animal to give you a solid trio.
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The way I see it, the main problem is that no weapon gives us a quick nonspell ranged attack.
Here is a solution:
Equipment Spell:
Crossbow
Level 2
Mana cost: 8
Ranged attack 1-2 zones away
Quick attack: 3 dice piercing +1
OR
Equipment spell:
Flying Daggers
Level 2
Mana cost 8
Quick Ranged attack 1-2 zones, 3 dice piercing +1
Quick Melee Attack 2 dice piercing +1
Basically, create a weapon giving us a weak ranged attack that can be used as a quick action. For the Johktari BM, it would be great.
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I know that it is only a matter of time when we will get one or more weapons which will had quick shooting on them ;)
Also, dont forget long forgotten information about "Skirmish" trait. I think it was mentioned together with Centaur and some North east region.
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What?
I've never heard of that trait...
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It was mentioned year or more ago. It allows you shoot and then move. Maybe it just not survived designing process :)
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I think it's one that Bryan's been holding back. Granted there is a ton of design that he's done over the 5+ years he was working on the original core set, so I'm sure there are lots of mechanics he's holding back.
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If all else fails, there's Intangible's Johktari Rushmaster to fall back on. Akiro's Favor + 6 Hurl Boulders. Just rush, rush, rush all day long.
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I know that it is only a matter of time when we will get one or more weapons which will had quick shooting on them ;)
Also, dont forget long forgotten information about "Skirmish" trait. I think it was mentioned together with Centaur and some North east region.
I still think johktari Bm should have been a centaur. It would have been all too fitting for her playstyle. Too many of our mages look all too much like humans. Granted, the Orc warlord was good.
I mean, I know some people might have complained about racism if you made the only dark-skinned mage so far a centaur rather than a fully hominid race, but the only real reason that you don't have any other dark skinned mages is because most of the mages released so far come from the central hearthlands which is based on Europe. Once you got to the Egypt themed nation, or maybe even anywhere else in Kumanjaro, people would be eating their words.
So far we have 7 humans, 3 elves, an orc and a dwarf.
Ah well. I suppose having more fantasy racial diversity looks racist to people not familiar with the setting...
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I'll touch on this a bit more later, but suffice it to say, she is my favorite mage for a reason, and second to the wizard, can make best use of her spam, err, spawn point..
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So why is this beast master my favorite of the mages we have to date? Wounded prey, lair pooping out dire wolves is amazing. They don't have the greatest life total, but they allow you to roll incredibly high dice totals, when combined with the bow, and the crowd favorite hurl boulder, with the meta moving away from teleport, tangle vine is a beautiful thing. Enfeeble is also incredibly punishing, and even some protection in the form of a guarding bear, the world becomes your oyster.
She, contrary to her fast trait, actually plays a lot like a wizard. I have actually played around with the fairy familiar, which seems on the face to be pushing things in terms of action advantage, can actually help a lot with the longer matchups.
What makes the bow so good? Because it is an incredible threat to the enemy mage. U have to deal with it, or stay out of the way. Sure, you can get into the same zone, but I've got this, like, bear, that guards.
What it comes done to, is that this mage does not play itself. It's not an easy book to build, or play. And while I at this about most mages, having a preset game plan is vital to a winning game. How mine plays is by using action advantage over the course of the game to then burst kill in the last few rounds. Maybe not the best with the current structure, but incredibly strong in an umtimed match.