Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: DaveW on August 09, 2014, 07:54:18 AM
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I found only one possibly useful thread when I looked (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=12761.msg18915#msg18915 (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=12761.msg18915#msg18915)), and I can't view the diagram included there... so I need to ask a couple of questions:
(http://www.thespelltome.com/151-thickbox_default/gate-to-hell.jpg)
1) Is LOS required when making the attack caused by "Opening" the Gate to Hell? I know that the attack does not affect non-creatures (like walls), but do walls or Rolling Fog, or the like prevent the attack against a particular creature? From reading the card, it doesn't sound as if LOS from the Gate is required. (Note that the attack is neither Ranged nor Melee.)
OK, I just found the Targeting topic on page 15, which says that you have to have LOS to make any attack... but does this make sense with regard to the Gate's attack in Rolling Fog? It seems that the heat would get to the creature even if it can't "see" it due to fog alone... no? I can understand how a corporeal wall might block the heat... but not an incorporeal one.
2) Also, while opening the Gate to Hell is a Creature action, the Source of the attack is the Gate itself, correct? The rules codex on page 4 (Attack Source) may need to be updated to include this card, in addition to Chain Lightning and Reverse Attack. The only reason to suspect that the Source might be the Mage instead seems to be that the Mage must use his action and his mana to initiate the attack.
Thanks in advance for the insight!
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Let me present my opinions:
OK, I just found the Targeting topic on page 15, which says that you have to have LOS to make any attack... but does this make sense with regard to the Gate's attack in Rolling Fog? It seems that the heat would get to the creature even if it can't "see" it due to fog alone... no? I can understand how a corporeal wall might block the heat... but not an incorporeal one.
I agree with this description if it was a zone attack, because you would be targeting the zone; and therefore; reaching everything in that zone. Nevertheless; that is not a zone attack; so, Gate to Hell must target each creature and you need to consider the Obscured trait.
2) Also, while opening the Gate to Hell is a Creature action, the Source of the attack is the Gate itself, correct? The rules codex on page 4 (Attack Source) may need to be updated to include this card, in addition to Chain Lightning and Reverse Attack. The only reason to suspect that the Source might be the Mage instead seems to be that the Mage must use his action and his mana to initiate the attack.
Thematically speaking, I would imagine that "Opening the Gate" is a tough task, it demands concentration (full action) and magical effort (12 mana) to do so. Once open, Gate to Hell will perform its attacks and Gate to Hell is the source of the attacks.
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2) Also, while opening the Gate to Hell is a Creature action, the Source of the attack is the Gate itself, correct? The rules codex on page 4 (Attack Source) may need to be updated to include this card, in addition to Chain Lightning and Reverse Attack. The only reason to suspect that the Source might be the Mage instead seems to be that the Mage must use his action and his mana to initiate the attack.
Correct. If the Source was the mage than the attack would base LoS and range from the Warlock and not the Gate.
Incorporeal walls (fog bank / wall of fire) that block line of sight have always prevented the gate from having LoS. The obscure traits bit about " cannot be target from more than one zone away (this is for all purposes...)"
does minimize the range from the gate.
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Let me present my opinions:
OK, I just found the Targeting topic on page 15, which says that you have to have LOS to make any attack... but does this make sense with regard to the Gate's attack in Rolling Fog? It seems that the heat would get to the creature even if it can't "see" it due to fog alone... no? I can understand how a corporeal wall might block the heat... but not an incorporeal one.
I agree with this description if it was a zone attack, because you would be targeting the zone; and therefore; reaching everything in that zone. Nevertheless; that is not a zone attack; so, Gate to Hell must target each creature and you need to consider the Obscured trait.
Rolling Fog gives all zones and objects obscure so the gate still would not be able to target the zones at range 2. And the incorporeal walls would still stop the zone attack. Just like with Akiro's Hammer and the inability to target a zone with it's zone attack that is behind a rolling fog.
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Gate to Hell does NOT require LoS to attack. Why you ask? Because it doesnt have ranged attack icon, so it is not ranged attack and only ranged attack require a LoS. It just happens on the target, like walls attack, but instead to be done on target that pass throu it like a wall, it happens on every creature that is within 2 zone of the gate.
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Thanks everyone for your thoughtful replies.
Can someone point me to a reference in the rules that talks about when Targeting is needed, or that only Ranged attacks need LOS? I agree that it makes sense (which is why I also mentioned that the attack is neither a melee nor a ranged attack), but the Targeting topic makes me think that all attacks must have LOS. From p. 15:
"Targeting
In order to successfully target an object, 3 conditions must be met.
1) You must be able to “see” the object – trace LoS (Line of Sight) to the object.
..."
I guess the way to look at this is to say that the specific wording on the card overrides the more generalized rules in the rule book. Thus, there is no possibility of being able to hide behind walls, etc. to avoid the attack. If the creature is in range, it is hit by the attack.
Oh, and to get this attack off, it requires two Mage actions... one to cast the original spell, and a second one to open the gate... plus a total of 24 mana... 12 + 12. Therefore, it should be a powerful attack (though you also get a fairly sturdy conjuration that gives Demons +1 dice and an alternate entry location for them).
Thanks again!
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Hmmm... after more reading, I retract what I said. Gate to Hell require LoS. Just because of this part in STEP 1. DECLARE ATTACK:
Then, announce what target you are attacking. You must
choose a legal target for your attack
.
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Hmmm... after more reading, I retract what I said. Gate to Hell require LoS. Just because of this part in STEP 1. DECLARE ATTACK:
Then, announce what target you are attacking. You must
choose a legal target for your attack
.
But... isn't that from the melee attack section? This attack is neither melee nor ranged....
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Hmmm... after more reading, I retract what I said. Gate to Hell require LoS. Just because of this part in STEP 1. DECLARE ATTACK:
Then, announce what target you are attacking. You must
choose a legal target for your attack
.
But... isn't that from the melee attack section? This attack is neither melee nor ranged....
No it is from Combat Section.
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Thematically I feel it makes most sense that all non flying creatures within 2 zones get attacked. I think of it as a huge area of effect fireball, comprising 13 zones, in which any ground-based creature feels the flame.
But where does Mage Wars stand on the 'golden rule' - that if there is a potential clash between the card and the rule book, the card wins?
In general, I tend to favour the thematically compelling interpretation, rather than the rules lawyer interpretation... but I don't play in tournaments. (There aren't any where I live anyway).
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Hmmm... after more reading, I retract what I said. Gate to Hell require LoS. Just because of this part in STEP 1. DECLARE ATTACK:
Then, announce what target you are attacking. You must
choose a legal target for your attack
.
Now I guess I just need to know why each non-flying creature within two zones would not be considered a legal target... it isn't a ranged attack, after all.
The "target" for the attack is all non-flying creatures within two zones. What makes a target illegal? No LOS? Why would lack of LOS make a creature an illegal target for this special attack?
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Because "Target" has a specific rules meaning, that includes a LoS requirement.
Line of Sight
In order to cast a spell or make a ranged attack
against a target, you must have a clear “line of sight”
(called “LoS” for short). Normally, a creature has
LoS to the entire game board, even into zones that
are out of range. But, some walls block LoS. You
cannot cast a spell or make a ranged attack through
a wall that blocks LoS.
When you count range to your target, you must
also check if you have clear line of sight (LoS).
Draw an imaginary straight line from the center of
the attacker’s or caster’s zone to the center of the
target’s zone. LoS is blocked if the line crosses
through a zone border that has a wall on it with the
blocks LoS trait. Walls do not normally block LoS if
the line crosses diagonally through the corner of
a wall border, as long as at least one side of that
corner does not block LoS. When drawing LoS to a
wall, draw it to the center of the zone border.
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My thinking on the matter:
1) attacks and spells both need to target something.
2) targeting requires line of sight.
3) there is nothing on gate to hell that implies it would break these rules.
I kind of agree with those who think it works like a big multi zone explosion attack, but there currently is nothing in the rules or on the card that would suggest such an attack would not need line of sight. I can think of arguments for and against why we would want it to ignore line of sight, but the lack of a ranged attack symbol does not indicate it does, nor does anything else indicate such. Therefore it requires line of sight currently.
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Because "Target" has a specific rules meaning, that includes a LoS requirement.
Line of Sight
In order to cast a spell or make a ranged attack
against a target, you must have a clear “line of sight”....
In this case we are neither casting a spell nor making a ranged attack. This requires a full action, but not the casting of a spell (at the moment the gate is opened). Also, the attack is neither melee nor ranged.
I would think that the lack of the ranged symbol is precisely what allows the attack to not require LoS.
I feel odd having the contrary opinion to folks who know the game much better than I do, but I truly can only see this interpreted this way.
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Lets walk through the steps:
Warlock flips his action marker and spends 900 mana to open the gate. The Gate will then follow all 8 steps of making an attack (as per the rules, see the sidebar MAKING AN ATTACK, "When you attack, you must follow these steps in order")
Step 1. Declare Attack
(This is where this entire issue is rooted) As stated in the rules, during this step an attack is either melee or ranged (no exceptions). Melee attacks require the target to be in the same zone. Ranged attacks can only be preformed if the target is within the maximum range and has a clear Line of Sight.
From the step description we can clearly determine that the Gate is using a ranged attack, which would require it to have line of sight as per the rules in Step 1.
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Lets walk through the steps:
Warlock flips his action marker and spends 900 mana to open the gate. The Gate will then follow all 8 steps of making an attack (as per the rules, see the sidebar MAKING AN ATTACK, "When you attack, you must follow these steps in order")
Step 1. Declare Attack
(This is where this entire issue is rooted) As stated in the rules, during this step an attack is either melee or ranged (no exceptions). Melee attacks require the target to be in the same zone. Ranged attacks can only be preformed if the target is within the maximum range and has a clear Line of Sight.
From the step description we can clearly determine that the Gate is using a ranged attack, which would require it to have line of sight as per the rules in Step 1.
From page 4 of the rules codex thing:
"Other Attacks
Attacks without a melee or ranged icon (e.g. Damage Barriers, wall attacks, the attack made by the spell
Explode) are neither melee nor ranged. "
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The chart in the updated codex still shows that special attacks have to go through step 1.
From Codex v 3.3
LoS (Line of Sight)
"You cannot target an object or zone if Line of Sight is blocked. Some walls have the Blocks LoS trait. See "Walls" on page 17."
Blocks LoS
"This wall blocks Line of Sight. You cannot target an object or a zone if the Line of Sight is blocked. See "LoS" on page 17."
Step 1. Declare Attack
"Then, announce what target you are attacking. You must choose a legal target for your attack"
Targeting
"In order to successfully target an object, 3 conditions must be met.
1) You must be able to "see" the object - trace LoS(Line of Sight) to the object.
2)If the spell, effect, or ability you are targeting with specifies a range, then the target must within the specified range. If a range is not specified, then ignore this requirement and assume any is permissible.
3) The target must be a "legal" target and match whatever requirements are specified for that spell, effect, or ability. For example, a spell might say "Flying Creatures" in the target line, and thus it cannot target a Nonflying creature.
Note that the first requirement (LoS) is mandatory for targeting, and the second 2 requirements may or may not be required by the particular spell, effect, or ability."
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This would be easier if there were a distinction between "Line of Sight" and "Line of Effect" in this game.
How does the Gate actually "see" any creatures to target? It doesn't have eyes, and we've already established that the source of the attack is the Gate itself. The card simply says that it targets all non-flying Creatures within two zones of it.
The real question, I suppose, was asked before in this thread... does the text on the card override the (presumably more general) rules in the rule book?
It would be good if the Codex spoke about this card in relation to specifically what it can affect. Would Brian or someone please add that to a "to do" list?
I also would like to know how the judges at GenCon will rule on this so I can know whether I will want to play this card in certain situations.
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Specific text on cards does indeed override general rules, but there is no text on gate to hell that says it ignores line of sight or does not need to target. You are correct that it is neither ranged nor melee nor even a zone attack. I fail to see why that matters though. It is still an attack. It still has to go through the steps. It still has to target. Targeting still requires line of sight.
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Like we keep saying. It is an attack. And attacks require LoS no matter the type. End of case.
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Like we keep saying. It is an attack. And attacks require LoS no matter the type. End of case.
Indeed, but not thematic.
It makes some sense thematically that someone can duck behind a wall to avoid this attack, but less sense that a flame which fills an entire region somehow doesn't affect someone in fog, because it can't 'see' that person.
So fine, we have the legal interpretation. A massive belch of flame which engulfs a dozen zones misses someone in fog because it can't see them. Not sure it's a very compelling scenario, but there we are. It would have made more sense if this was designated as an area of effect attack which fills all these zones.
That said, all this is pretty much irrelevant as it's such an expensive clunky card that I can't see people using it in a competitive scenario anyway. They might in more of a casual fun environment, in which case people can apply any house rule that floats their boat.
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Announce which attack you are using
Then, announce what target you are attacking. You must choose a legal target for your attack:
Even thought the gate is not melee or ranged attack it still requires a target as per attack rules. Thus if you read the rules below
LoS (Line of Sight) You cannot target an object or zone if Line of Sight is blocked.
If LoS is blocked then the gate can not hit it.
Also Gate is the source of the attack.
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Thanks!
It would be great if it could be corrected in the rulebook in the Line of Sight box that only ranged attacks need LoS and in the first attack step that only ranged is listed explicitly for LoS. And it would be great to see this in the Rules Supplement :)
Would that be possible?
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Thanks!
It would be great if it could be corrected in the rulebook in the Line of Sight box that only ranged attacks need LoS and in the first attack step that only ranged is listed explicitly for LoS. And it would be great to see this in the Rules Supplement :)
Would that be possible?
Not till the next rules update prob in the next few months.
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i had this problem yesterday, my question it´s if wall´s between zones are attacked by Gate of hell, i ask because i know that zone spell not target walls, but i´m not sure about G. o H.
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[mwcard=MW1J06]Gate to Hell[/mwcard] specifically says that it targets creatures. Conjurations, including walls, are not attacked.