Arcane Wonders Forum

Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: Floorshine on June 10, 2014, 08:25:23 AM

Title: Sersiryx, Imp Familiar concerning Devil's Trident
Post by: Floorshine on June 10, 2014, 08:25:23 AM
First off, new to the game and love it.  And maybe I just missed it, but I'd like to know if the imp familiar could cast it.  The imp can cast 1-2 level fire spells and curses.  But with the Trident being a level 1 fire and dark spell, that's were my hesitation comes from, the and part.
Title: Re: Sersiryx, Imp Familiar concerning Devil's Trident
Post by: Laddinfance on June 11, 2014, 12:08:30 AM
This will be answered in the new rules and codex supplement, that will come out next week. Sorry for the wait.
Title: Re: Sersiryx, Imp Familiar concerning Devil's Trident
Post by: echephron on June 11, 2014, 12:08:40 AM
Great question. I'm guessing that No, he can't cast it. The imp cant cast Dark spells which are not curses, and this is a dark spell which is not a curse(despite the fire part).
Title: Re: Sersiryx, Imp Familiar concerning Devil's Trident
Post by: silverclawgrizzly on June 11, 2014, 12:12:32 AM
Good question indeed. I would hazard a guess at "No" for the reasons Echephron stated. Mind you this is to my knowledge the first Dark Attack spell so new territory and all that, but I think the Imp is regulated to Fire and Curses only.
Title: Re: Sersiryx, Imp Familiar concerning Devil's Trident
Post by: Floorshine on June 11, 2014, 05:13:26 AM
Thanks Laddinfance, looking forward to the update.

Echephron and silverclawgrizzly you both have stated my belief as well.  The only example I knew to build off of was the Elemental Wand which had or in its schools, the and made me believe it was treated as both rather than one or the other.  Therefore, not castable.
Title: Re: Sersiryx, Imp Familiar concerning Devil's Trident
Post by: echephron on June 28, 2014, 05:14:26 PM
I just noticed a related problem:

If the [mwcard=MWSTX1CKC05] Screech Harpy[/mwcard] can be cast from [mwcard=MW1J07] Gate to Voltari[/mwcard] then Sersiryx, Imp Familiar should be able to cast Devil's Trident.

So can  [mwcard=MWSTX1CKC05] Screech Harpy[/mwcard] be cast from [mwcard=MW1J07] Gate to Voltari[/mwcard]?
Title: Re: Sersiryx, Imp Familiar concerning Devil's Trident
Post by: Shifthappens on June 28, 2014, 05:35:42 PM
in mtg terms, a red and blue card is actually both so its affected by whatever affect only one part of it.

The imp can cast lvl 1-2 fire attack spells. Devil's trident, as a whole, is a lvl 2 spell, that is both fire AND dark, and its still an attack spell. From my point of view, since its both, it still count as being fire, so, castable.

Same for harpy. She's arcane and air, but she is still affected by whatever affect arcane.

So until an official answer happens, i'd say its better to make it work until we figure out its unbalanced, then change it after.
Title: Re: Sersiryx, Imp Familiar concerning Devil's Trident
Post by: silverclawgrizzly on June 28, 2014, 05:46:47 PM
That is a really good point about the Screech Harpy. I'm gonna have to wait on the official word on that. Thanks for the food for thought though.
Title: Re: Sersiryx, Imp Familiar concerning Devil's Trident
Post by: Wildhorn on July 03, 2014, 12:00:47 AM
I just noticed a related problem:

If the [mwcard=MWSTX1CKC05] Screech Harpy[/mwcard] can be cast from [mwcard=MW1J07] Gate to Voltari[/mwcard] then Sersiryx, Imp Familiar should be able to cast Devil's Trident.

So can  [mwcard=MWSTX1CKC05] Screech Harpy[/mwcard] be cast from [mwcard=MW1J07] Gate to Voltari[/mwcard]?

Would be the same for Barrack and Bridge Troll, or Adramelech and Pentagram.

Or if we take it a step further, Lair with animals that have another subtype.

So clearly the answer is yes.
Title: Re: Sersiryx, Imp Familiar concerning Devil's Trident
Post by: jacksmack on July 03, 2014, 02:23:28 AM
I just noticed a related problem:

If the [mwcard=MWSTX1CKC05] Screech Harpy[/mwcard] can be cast from [mwcard=MW1J07] Gate to Voltari[/mwcard] then Sersiryx, Imp Familiar should be able to cast Devil's Trident.

So can  [mwcard=MWSTX1CKC05] Screech Harpy[/mwcard] be cast from [mwcard=MW1J07] Gate to Voltari[/mwcard]?

Would be the same for Barrack and Bridge Troll, or Adramelech and Pentagram.

Or if we take it a step further, Lair with animals that have another subtype.

So clearly the answer is yes.

I believe you are wrong.

Your barracks and Lair example are way off.

Barracks says you can cast creatures with a specific subtype - soldier.
Doesnt matter if they are holy or warschool, or 2 schools.
Criteria is: Subcategory must contain soldier.

Lair:
says Animal creature.
Criteria: Spell type and subtype.




Regarding Sersiryx:

My interpretitation will be:
'Sersiryx can cast only level 1-2 fire attack spells, or level 1-2 curse enchantmens.'

Version 2.0 of the rule book page 35 has the category training:
Some spells belong to several schools and have an “&” symbol
joining the schools. For these spells, you must pay the cost
for all the schools.

Because trident belongs to 2 schools, and sersiryx can cast Flame only thus leaving out dark and all other schools i conclude the answer is no.
Title: Re: Sersiryx, Imp Familiar concerning Devil's Trident
Post by: sdougla2 on July 03, 2014, 02:24:27 AM
Barracks can cast Bridge Troll. There is no dispute. Barracks does not specify a school of magic, it specifies a subtype of creature. Bridge Troll is a soldier, therefore Barracks can cast Bridge Troll. Just as you can cast Knight of Westlock or Brogan out of a Barracks.

Same with Lair. Lair casts animal creatures, so you can cast Galador or Highland Unicorn with Lair just fine.

Adramelech out of a Pentagram is pretty similar to the Imp casting Devil's Trident though.
Title: Re: Sersiryx, Imp Familiar concerning Devil's Trident
Post by: jacksmack on July 03, 2014, 03:09:03 AM
Adramelech out of a Pentagram is pretty similar to the Imp casting Devil's Trident though.

Except that pentragram does not say 'only', whereas the text on the imp does.

So Gate should be able to deploy Harpy as well.
Title: Re: Sersiryx, Imp Familiar concerning Devil's Trident
Post by: Laddinfance on July 03, 2014, 08:34:11 AM
Just wanted to update everyone. It's been very busy here in the last couple weeks for me. I'm still working on the supplement, and as soon as it's up I'll make sure to post here. Sorry to take so long.
Title: Re: Sersiryx, Imp Familiar concerning Devil's Trident
Post by: Wildhorn on July 03, 2014, 09:27:00 AM
@jacksmack:

So belonging to 2 magic school is a no but belonging to 2 subtype is a yes? Why?
Title: Re: Sersiryx, Imp Familiar concerning Devil's Trident
Post by: blackirishguilt on July 03, 2014, 09:37:25 AM
@jacksmack:

So belonging to 2 magic school is a no but belonging to 2 subtype is a yes? Why?

Honestly, I can see this going either way.  To the creature subtype, it makes sense that if it meets any criteria it would work because if I'm, say, an Animal and a Canine, it's almost like Canine is a sub-sub-type of Animal, but I would meet the restrictions of Lair just by being an Animal of any kind.

For schools, if I'm not trained in a school, how would I know how to use Mana from that school or control energy from that school which is required to cast the spell?  Yes, as a Mage I know enough to expend the extra energy (ie. spend extra spellbook points) to cast something out of school, but does a Familiar have that intimate an understanding of Magic? 

Like I said, I can see arguments for both sides making sense, curious to see what the final word will be.
Title: Re: Sersiryx, Imp Familiar concerning Devil's Trident
Post by: sIKE on July 03, 2014, 10:15:15 AM
I think this still applies and is how I have based my thoughts on this topic:

http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13671.0
Title: Re: Sersiryx, Imp Familiar concerning Devil's Trident
Post by: jacksmack on July 03, 2014, 05:13:30 PM
Imo you cannot compare the gate and harpy with sersiryx because of the different wording.

Sersiryx says 'only fire' and the trident is fire AND dark. This means when your casting the trident your casting a dark spell, though your also casting a fire spell.

If that's a clear cut 'of course he can' to you, then fine. Its definitely not cut in stone for me. I can see this go either way, thought I believe with the current wording its a no.
Title: Re: Sersiryx, Imp Familiar concerning Devil's Trident
Post by: MrSaucy on July 03, 2014, 05:34:52 PM
Sersiryx can cast fire attack spells so I assume that any attack spell that has the "fire" damage type is fair game. Devil's Trident has the "fire" damage type based on the symbol to the left of the dice-roll-count.
Title: Re: Sersiryx, Imp Familiar concerning Devil's Trident
Post by: Shad0w on July 06, 2014, 01:55:52 AM
I could comment on this but laddin is doing the full rules update so I will wait till after he posts it. 8) Sorry All
Title: Re: Sersiryx, Imp Familiar concerning Devil's Trident
Post by: blackirishguilt on July 06, 2014, 03:57:22 PM
I could comment on this but laddin is doing the full rules update so I will wait till after he posts it. 8) Sorry All

You tease...  :P