Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: Laddinfance on May 19, 2014, 02:41:52 PM
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Well here he is Sardonyx, Blight of the Living. You can find his preview article >>HERE<< (http://www.arcanewonders.com/arcane-wonders/forged-in-fire-preview-sardonyx-blight-of-the-living). How will you be unstoppable?
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I like it a lot! I can already tell this dragons going to be hotly debated but I for one am impressed. Thanks Laddinface!
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Do we know what unstoppable means yet? I did a search but its an unfortunately over used word! :)
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- Unstoppable (Object Trait)
This creature is exceptionally large, heavy, and/or strong, possibly animated by powerful magics. It is virtually impossible to hold or push. This creature cannot be hindered. It also has both the Unmovable and Uncontainable traits.
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This creature is a basically a Mage by itself with its 31 hp!
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I think the best counter to him might be Banish. Based on what the rules supplement states ("Abilities which look for things happening in play, but don’t have a specific range or require LoS, still work. (For instance, a banished Valshalla, Lightning Angel can still gain Wrath tokens.)") and what other people have asked around the forums, it seems that if he gets Banished, the controlling Mage will still lose 2 life every upkeep phase? Forgive me if that's incorrect.
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- Unstoppable (Object Trait)
This creature is exceptionally large, heavy, and/or strong, possibly animated by powerful magics. It is virtually impossible to hold or push. This creature cannot be hindered. It also has both the Unmovable and Uncontainable traits.
THanks - reading the preview in the link helped too, its like the second paragraph :/
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Twenty-four mana and eight spellpoints for those attacks are highly suspect to begin with, but it also leeches two life per turn? I sense a big barrel of haterade coming down on this one....
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THanks - reading the preview in the link helped too, its like the second paragraph :/
I wasn't gonna say anything......
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lol, that would be gold! :) Bah, tremble in fear at my terrifying Dragon.....next round....banish.... eight direct damage for 14 mana, and nulifying the dragon for that time, seems a fair trade. Its a shame banish is so expensive, it'd almost be worth carrying two.
quote author=Lord0fWinter link=topic=14140.msg36598#msg36598 date=1400531479]
I think the best counter to him might be Banish. Based on what the rules supplement states ("Abilities which look for things happening in play, but don’t have a specific range or require LoS, still work. (For instance, a banished Valshalla, Lightning Angel can still gain Wrath tokens.)") and what other people have asked around the forums, it seems that if he gets Banished, the controlling Mage will still lose 2 life every upkeep phase? Forgive me if that's incorrect.
[/quote]
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Turn to stone shuts him down too
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Sacrificial Altar will be useful to get ride of him if needed.
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Really nice! The life loss makes it more of a endgame summon rather than a cornerstone, though.
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This card is great thematic wise but I just don't see using him. I can think of more practical ways to spend 8 spellpoints. And I don't see how this creature is worth the 24 mana. Maybe we will see spellbooks built around this creature. Who knows. But in my opinion this creature isn't worth the investment.
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I know this is sort of off topic, but could you have a dark priest being trained in Holy and Dark schools? Sort of thinking about how to have a new mage type that could be holy but still have Sardonyx in school
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I think the dragon's 5 attack dice is very weak.
Adramelech, Lord of Fire is more dangerious than him with burn...
A bear is good than the dragon,too.
And bear is much cheaper! and dont leech life..
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Are play testers allowed to talk now about how Sardonyx worked out in practice during play testing?
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I know this is sort of off topic, but could you have a dark priest being trained in Holy and Dark schools? Sort of thinking about how to have a new mage type that could be holy but still have Sardonyx in school
Almost anything is possible. I know I had some ideas for a "death priest" a while back. Maybe I'll be able to get back to them soon!
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Adramelech's attacks do more damage than Sardonyx, this is true, but I wouldn't say he is more dangerous. Sardonyx is a lot harder to kill or to crowd control. Yes, Turn to Stone and Banish both work against him, but they aren't extremely common and one of them can easily be dispelled. Pretty much nothing else will stop him. This is a hard metric to guage when determining which is more "dangerous" but you can't ignore it. I'd much rather have a dragon that is continuously hitting my opponent AND preventing them from healing than having an Adramelech that is out of commission due to all the crowd control that is possible. However, I would definitely run a Drain Soul or two to help with the Life situation and a Sacrificial Altar just in case.
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But Sardonyx does cost twice the spell book points as Andy does... Andy has half the HP, but has 3 armor which is worth quite a bit. Both have a sweeping attack, Sards gets one more dice, but Andy gives out burns...
Andy's quick attack seems ... hmmm where's a statistician when you need one - Andy has 6 dice plus burns vs 5 dice + 2 piercing... against the right creatures, the piercing probably works better.
Its a challenging trade off, which perhaps means it will get more play. Sure you could carry two Andy cards for the same SB points, but that's like 48 points to cast... So having Sards in the book is probably a bit more commitment to a certain strategy...
Although I'm thinking I haven't contrasted the - 2 life vs finite life to living creatures in zone - seems a great creature to sit on top of the enemy mage and whale on him with...
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You know a lot of Warlocks go solo or with just Adramelech. It could be feasible to squeeze 8 points into a spell book and run both The Lord of Fire and the Blight of the Living together....you opponent would have no real direction to which to turn especially if you buff up Adramelech some. Then if the dragon starts getting to be a burden you sacrifice him and give Adramelech a very nasty bonus.
Expensive? Yeah. But hey stranger things have happened.
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But Sardonyx does cost twice the spell book points as Andy does...
... Sure you could carry two Andy cards for the same SB points...
Andramalech costs (the Warlock) 6 to Sardonyx's cost of 8, and a Necromancer has to pay 8 for both. 8)
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Expensive? Maybe. Worth the Fun? Definetly!
I cant wait for a Joseph Vs Dragon battle. And also, it will go well with planned award title system in my area. Dragonslayer Title will be a really hard one to get :)
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I kinda like his attacks and i very much like his Unstoppable trait.
But 24 mana and 2 HP per round seems a bit too harsh. Once you put him down, you essentially put yourself on a timer and going offensive is a must. Doing 5 damage per round to the enemy mage and 2 damage to yourself seems like a bad tradeoff for 24 mana.
If i see my opponent play this bad boy, i will take it as the damage race has begun and simply ignore the dragon and spend my 24 mana on stuff that does more than 3 damage per round in my favour.
Im excited to see what other card gets the Unstoppable trait.
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In my opinion, it will be a statue of war (or statue of war god?). Unless they were not telling the truth about the tank ;D
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You all seem to forget that he has an AoE Rot attack. This has several advantages. It allows Necromancer to deal an extra damage over the rot(s) damage. Which make the 2 life damage pretty much even. It prevent opponent to stack living creatures. It removes block/reverse attack.
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Um, only 2 life loss per round? Just make sure you give your mage a regrowth belt first. It only costs 2 in spellbook creation. Sorry, just underwhelmed by that. I pride myslef on being very good at exploiting mechanics like this, suing life points as a resource. Regrow belt is cheap and offsets this. And, the Necromancer often has a lot more important gear.
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as has already been pointed out, losing life is NOT Offset by regenerating as it is not (per se) damage...
I really think about using him together with a Sunfire Amulet to take only half the disadvantage.
Anyway, whether I play him or not, I do like him! 8)
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Sunfire amulet, Bull Endurance or Elric´s Life Ring can help a lot. Just dont stand in Sardonyx zone when casting them :)
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Um, only 2 life loss per round? Just make sure you give your mage a regrowth belt first. It only costs 2 in spellbook creation. Sorry, just underwhelmed by that. I pride myslef on being very good at exploiting mechanics like this, suing life points as a resource. Regrow belt is cheap and offsets this. And, the Necromancer often has a lot more important gear.
Regrowth (belt) is very strong for the necromancer, but not for the reason you mention, rather that he is immune to poisened blood.
You got 2 life loss per round wrong. Its not damage taken, its max Life lost.
Now... neglecting a 2 life loss per round appears to me to be a big mistake.
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Thematically, unstoppable seems like it should allow the creature to ignore guards. If it did, that would help to justify some of the cost.
The AOE attack is nice, although I wouldn't cast him just for that (for zone rot, nothing beats Eternal Servant Plague Zombie + Sacrificial Altar).
I can definitely see a Sardonyx + Soul Drain Wand combo. You could cast Soul drain every other turn, and use the extra 4 mana to protect your Soul Drain Wand with nullifies.
Keep in mind, his Tail Sweep attack is currently the most powerful (in terms of raw attack dice) sweeping attack in the game, with 2 attacks of 5.
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I think that Sardonyx will have a bigger impact on games than some think, but I don't fault them for thinking he is weak because of his attacks vs. his costs. Cards like Steelclaw Grizzly or Hurl Rock/Boulder/Meteorite are incredibly strong. They demonstrate that all the extra traits and stuff you can put on a card don't really matter when you can just roll more dice.
Hopefully Sardonyx will shift perceptions away from that. I've seen more than a few games degenerate into which units roll the most dice for their cost while the other 90% of the cast is left untouched.
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But 24 mana and 2 HP per round seems a bit too harsh. Once you put him down, you essentially put yourself on a timer and going offensive is a must. Doing 5 damage per round to the enemy mage and 2 damage to yourself seems like a bad tradeoff for 24 mana.
From my playtesting this guy, what usually happens is he shows up after the offensive is already underway.
Sardo hits the board when the necromancer feels like it is time to apply major pressure to his enemy. Finite life is a pain! Sunfire amulet, regrowth belt, vampiric attacks, and heals are all immediately shutoff in his zone. So the opposing mage only has two realistic choices, constantly move or teleport him. Either choice takes actions away from the enemy mage and, if they are constantly moving, they can no longer preform full round actions (unless they use a quick cast action to push/teleport themselves, a ~3 mana cost per movement that way).
Standing still is usually just as bad, as Sardo usually has some creature support at hand, allowing them to continue to deal damage that is no longer healable.
Finite life is a powerful ability that cancels two separate game mechanics, healing and life gain. Not to mention that he is melee and pierce +8!!! boost from a sacrificial altar. Very nasty spike damage potential there.
The most interesting strategy I encountered to compensate this was for the opposing mage to drop into melee with the mage controlling Sardonyx. Even the necromancer can receive the finite life trait from this boss.
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I think that Sardonyx will have a bigger impact on games than some think, but I don't fault them for thinking he is weak because of his attacks vs. his costs. Cards like Steelclaw Grizzly or Hurl Rock/Boulder/Meteorite are incredibly strong. They demonstrate that all the extra traits and stuff you can put on a card don't really matter when you can just roll more dice.
Hopefully Sardonyx will shift perceptions away from that. I've seen more than a few games degenerate into which units roll the most dice for their cost while the other 90% of the cast is left untouched.
I just hope your right. I would love to be proved wrong about any card i see inferior.
My concern is that its too hard to save up 24 mana combined with a Sardonyx opening (round 2 / 3) seem bad will make this card unplayable.
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To those worried about Sardonyx being unplayable: I won the first game I played with this version of the card. Is it good enough for tournament play? Only time will tell, but this is the current version of a list in my test rotation:
2 Force Hammer
2 Hurl Boulder
1 Graveyard
2 Sacrificial Altar
2 Wall of Bones
3 Deathfang
4 Ichthellid
1 Ravenous Ghoul
1 Sardonyx, Bane of the Living
2 Death Link
2 Enfeeble
1 Force Hold
1 Harmonize
1 Jinx
2 Maim Wings
3 Marked for Death
1 Nullify
1 Cloak of Shadows
2 Dragonscale Hauberk
1 Eagleclaw Boots
1 Elemental Cloak
1 Meditation Amulet
1 Charge
3 Dispel
3 Dissolve
2 Drain Soul
2 Force Push
1 Seeking Dispel
2 Teleport
Against Living creature opponents, it plays out Graveyard + Amulet, then Ichthellid + Harmonize + Meditate. Then it launches full Ichthellid spam while banking mana, and summons Sardonyx.
Against Non-living, the plan is turn 2 Sardonyx followed by Spamming fast undead.
Against Adramelech, the current plan is Meditation Amulet, Death Link, and Double Drain Soul into Sardonyx. That plan probably still needs work.
The plan in both cases is to buff Sardonyx with the Altar when possible, because a giant Unstoppable creature is an amazing platform for +2 Piercing & +2 Melee.
I'd love to fit in Mort, on principle. The third Teleport would be welcome, as well. It's still being tuned.
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Are play testers allowed to talk now about how Sardonyx worked out in practice during play testing?
We are now that is why I asked Laddin to preview Sar 8)
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I had the same thought as boocheck on this, and he mentionned this before in this thread : couldn't elric's life ring help against the life loss effect coming from Sardo ? Maybe two of those, could cancel out the negative effect, for at least 4 rounds ! Long enough to go after the opposing mage ?
damn..i can't wait any longer for FIF ! I do hope Europe will not have to wait too long after the US for it to come into our shops...
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You can't have multiple cards of the same name attached to the same object. So you can't have 2 Elric's Life Rings equipped. You could use a Bull Endurance instead of one of the rings, and Drain Soul is always an option.
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doesn't a piece of equipment go back to your spellbook when you try to equip two of the same ?
quote from the rulebook :
"if you cast an equipment spell for a location that is already full( such as a second weapon), the original equipment is returned to the owner's spellbook (not discarded"
doesn't this apply here ?
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I liked to use him on Classic Warlock, since you start at 38 Health.
The thing with Sardo though, is to not even worry about trying to offset the life loss, when he hits the table you should be planning to either end the game before it matters, or dump him off on the Altar for +8 melee/pierce and THEN end the game. When you have commited to casting him, all efforts are now either supporting Sardonyx (Nullifies, Commands, etc), fighting along side him, offering ranged support damage, or clearing a path for him (purging debuffs, purging opposing buffs, getting rid of obstacles), Or just spamming Jinxes on the opponent... trying to offset the life loss is mana and actions spent to prolong things that need to rather be invested to ending the game faster.
As long as Sardo is causing more than 2 damage every round, the opponent is on the same clock you are. If you land multiple successful zone wide Rots, he is dealing way more damage to the opponents forces than he is costing you.
I have found there are 2 big threats if you are using him:
Agony- You have to keep this off of him. Agony makes his main attack 3 dice, and his ranged attack 1. If the opponent has Aegis, Voltaric Sheild or respectable Armor, Agony makes his damage almost ignorable. Remember.. he has to be landing more damage every turn than he is inflicting.
Light Attacks- +2 vs Non-living sucks when you dont have armor. Whats worse though is that +2 on effect rolls for stun/daze. As mentioned, Sardo MUST be doing damage because he sets a clock. Any round that he does 0 Damage from a failed Daze check or a missed turn do to Stun is a round that Sardo hurt you more than the opponent. Temple of Light can put him on absolute lockdown. Daze/Stun damage barriers like the Lightning one, or the Circle of Light promo slow him down bad too.. though he is likely to just start spamming his ranged Rot chances at that point.
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doesn't a piece of equipment go back to your spellbook when you try to equip two of the same ?
quote from the rulebook :
"if you cast an equipment spell for a location that is already full( such as a second weapon), the original equipment is returned to the owner's spellbook (not discarded"
doesn't this apply here ?
Yes, casting the second Life Ring on your mage when you already have a Life Ring equipped would return the original Life Ring to your book. You can't have 2 equipped at the same time.
@ Baronzaltor
I can see that to some extent. Agony would be a huge problem for him, as would Banish and Turn to Stone. Teleport and walls would help to hold him off, but would cost enough actions that it wouldn't be as big of a problem. Staff of Asyra, Temple of Light, Samandriel, and Pillar of Light could really shut him down. Sardonyx pretty much ignores the rest of the control options available at the moment. In particular, Sardonyx seems very risky against holy mages.
It just seems like it will be much harder to win a damage race if you're losing 2 life every turn compared to playing Lord of Fire instead. I'll try using him in a skeleton Necromancer build when I get my hands on him, I'm just concerned that the life loss will be too much to justify playing him. Sacrificial Alter and Graveyard help with the efficiency issue quite a bit, as you can cash him in for 8 mana and a huge boost to an attack, but then the question becomes how to save up 24 mana for him in the mid game.
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I had the same thought as boocheck on this, and he mentionned this before in this thread : couldn't elric's life ring help against the life loss effect coming from Sardo ? Maybe two of those, could cancel out the negative effect, for at least 4 rounds ! Long enough to go after the opposing mage ?
damn..i can't wait any longer for FIF ! I do hope Europe will not have to wait too long after the US for it to come into our shops...
Ok I'm at a loss, what is elric's life ring?
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I had the same thought as boocheck on this, and he mentionned this before in this thread : couldn't elric's life ring help against the life loss effect coming from Sardo ? Maybe two of those, could cancel out the negative effect, for at least 4 rounds ! Long enough to go after the opposing mage ?
damn..i can't wait any longer for FIF ! I do hope Europe will not have to wait too long after the US for it to come into our shops...
Ok I'm at a loss, what is elric's life ring?
Its a promo they gave out at one of the Cons last year.
I forget the casting cost, but its a ring slot equpment that gives you +4 Life.
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I had the same thought as boocheck on this, and he mentionned this before in this thread : couldn't elric's life ring help against the life loss effect coming from Sardo ? Maybe two of those, could cancel out the negative effect, for at least 4 rounds ! Long enough to go after the opposing mage ?
damn..i can't wait any longer for FIF ! I do hope Europe will not have to wait too long after the US for it to come into our shops...
Ok I'm at a loss, what is elric's life ring?
Its a promo they gave out at one of the Cons last year.
I forget the casting cost, but its a ring slot equpment that gives you +4 Life.
It costs 4 to cast and is a level 1 holy spell.
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doesn't a piece of equipment go back to your spellbook when you try to equip two of the same ?
quote from the rulebook :
"if you cast an equipment spell for a location that is already full( such as a second weapon), the original equipment is returned to the owner's spellbook (not discarded"
doesn't this apply here ?
Yes, casting the second Life Ring on your mage when you already have a Life Ring equipped would return the original Life Ring to your book. You can't have 2 equipped at the same time.
<snip>
Point of rule however: like Bull Endurance, once Elfric's Life Ring is removed, the +4 Life is lost. Then the new Elfric's Life Ring applies, and the +4 is regained.
You don't get to keep stacking the +4 Life for each casting of the ring, which is what pete2 seemed to be implying by his question. The ring is actually a terrible card.
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doesn't a piece of equipment go back to your spellbook when you try to equip two of the same ?
quote from the rulebook :
"if you cast an equipment spell for a location that is already full( such as a second weapon), the original equipment is returned to the owner's spellbook (not discarded"
doesn't this apply here ?
Yes, casting the second Life Ring on your mage when you already have a Life Ring equipped would return the original Life Ring to your book. You can't have 2 equipped at the same time.
<snip>
Point of rule however: like Bull Endurance, once Elfric's Life Ring is removed, the +4 Life is lost. Then the new Elfric's Life Ring applies, and the +4 is regained.
You don't get to keep stacking the +4 Life for each casting of the ring, which is what pete2 seemed to be implying by his question. The ring is actually a terrible card.
Indy is correct the ring gives a static +4 if it is removed you lose that bonus.
@Indy you get a sticker 8)
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Oooooh, my first sticker! Thanks, Shad0w. : )
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NP Laddin and I can not be on all day so TY for responding.
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and a simple thanks from me for pointing that one out ! i'll remember that in my games !
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Wow.
Wow.
Wow.
This dragon looks very strong.
1st Turn:
Death Ring (2 mana)
Move two spaces closer to opponent.
2nd Turn (with 28 mana):
Full action: Summon Sardonyx (-23 mana)
Quick Action at end of turn: put nullify on Sardonyx
3rd turn (13 mana)
Full Action: Summon the Zombie Brute (11 mana)
Move Sardonyx closer
4th turn: (12 Mana)
- depending who goes first
- If the opposing mage uses his full action to move or teleport or banish Sardonyx (your Nullify will fire)
-Full action Bring Teleport (then teleport the mage between your Sardonyx and Zombie Brute).
-Attack with Sardonyx and follow up with Zombie Brute.
- Quick Action at end of turn: bring some attack spell
That is 11 ~15 dice at the end of fourth to the mage.
Not sure if he is in panic mode after that...
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I just want to point out that Death Ring costs 5 mana... And you forgot the discount on Zombie Brute.