Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Spellbook Design and Construction => Topic started by: jayjazz99 on January 19, 2014, 05:11:45 PM
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Spellbook points: 120 used of 120 allowed
1 Priest
--- Conjuration ---
1 Garrison Post
1 Enchanter's Wardstone
1 Temple of Asyra
1 Renewing spring
2 Bloodspine Wall
1 Archer's Watchtower
1 Hand of Bim-Shalla
--- Creature ---
3 Asyran Cleric
1 Goblin Builder
3 Asyran Defender
2 Knight of Westlock
1 Temple High Guard(promo)
2 Royal Archer
1 Ludwig Boltstorm
1 Brogan Bloodstone
--- Enchantment ---
1 Bear Strength
1 Eagle Wings
2 Hawkeye
1 Jinx
1 Nullify
1 Divine intervention
2 Healing charm
1 Rhino Hide
1 Divine protection
1 Divine Might
1 sacred ground
2 Block
1 Retaliate
2 Pacify
1 Bull Endurance
--- Equipment ---
1 Dawnbreaker Ring
1 Dragonscale Hauberk
1 Ring of Asyra
2 Staff of Asyra
--- Incantation ---
1 Dispel
1 Dissolve
1 Force Push
1 Teleport
1 Group Heal
1 Purify
1 Lay Hands
1 Ressurection
--- Attack ---
1 Jet Stream
1 Blinding Flash
- I'm a casual player and play with a few friends. I tend to loose a lot, so I posting here for help.
- This is a build I have been wanting to try for a while, soldiers of light
- My first turns would be : 1) Temple + Cleric, 2) Goblin Builder+cleric, 3) Archer, enchanter's wardstone and Staff or armor. Turn 4 or 5 : Holy Avenger on Knight of Westlock
- I see this build as defensive and letting the enemy come to you. Using guard, temple high guard to protect, a archer on watchtower to put pressure, a holy avenger knight to destroy. My mage mostly cast enchantements to beef my creatures, Goblin builds outposts, enchanter's wardstone, wall (which doesn't block LoS for my archers) etc.
- I'm not into control spells (dispel, dissolve, etc) and I hate using the wands.
What do you guys think ?
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Drop the Temple. It's really, really bad. Only way to increase the mana on it (besides Harmonize) is to use Clerics' full action. Also it doesn't work with your Garrison Post. Best to drop it and the Clerics as well.
Grimson is better than Ludwig. Switch them.
You need more Dissolve, Dispel and Teleport. They aren't "control" spells, they're "general" spells that keep you alive and help you make your opponent dead. 3 is the minimum number for Dissolve and Dispel, and 2 is the minimum number for Teleport. Whether you are "into" them or not is irrelevant.
You don't need Jinx or Bull Endurance. Drop them. For you, Divine Protection is better than Rhino Hide since it's cheaper to include in your book and the Ring gives you a discount upon revealing it. What you need is more Bear Strength.
No Wand of Healing? You're a Holy Mage! Fit one in; it's amazing at removing conditions. Your creatures might not be in range of the Spring, or you might need their action more than your QC in a particular turn. It's only a single point.
Drop Resurrection; you have so many creatures in your book that you'll never need to resurrect one.
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I know one person who gets away with a temple using a single cleric and amulet of meditation (she gets so many creatures out she doesn't really use her actions for anything). Other than that, I agree and say drop the temple. I also don't think the goblin builder is doing that much for you, with or without the temple. If you're going to be using that many creatures you might also consider healing spring.
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If you're going to be using that many creatures you might also consider healing spring.
Renewing Spring is already in the OP's book.
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Oops, I was looking for it under enchantments.
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If your playing Promo's a pair of Temple High Guards, with one designated as your HA, are quite the terror. My other favorite HA is the Unicorn. Add another Ward Stone in and buff her with a Bear Strength, Mongoose Agility, and time permitting Cheetah Speed (same stack works on the THG) and the HA Unicorn become a beast of a killing machine that will inspire fear amongst your enemies in the arena.
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If your playing Promo's a pair of Temple High Guards, with one designated as your HA, are quite the terror. My other favorite HA is the Unicorn. Add another Ward Stone in and buff her with a Bear Strength, Mongoose Agility, and time permitting Cheetah Speed (same stack works on the THG) and the HA Unicorn become a beast of a killing machine that will inspire fear amongst your enemies in the arena.
Why do you like the Temple High Guard as a Holy Avenger? It can't get both it's Guarding Firststrike ability and the Holy Avenger bonus in a single round (unless you want it for the +5 HP?), barring Sweeping Attacks...
I do think it would work well with HA though, guarding it so the HA can get the +2 Melee when it's attacked.
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I position them a zone a part and put the THG in harms way. He gets to it first with 6 dice +1 piercing. If that doesn't do the trick. Remember the opposing creature started this sequence. My HA THG moves in with a 6 dice +2 piercing attack. If within range of my mage and I prepared a <Any Named) Strike I can QC on the HA THG before I activate him if I really want to pour on the hurt, like a Piercing Strike on a Iron Golem, as an example. The stacking ability of the combo, when played well is quite deadly. I am a big big fan of piercing which is why is why I like to run them in tandem.
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Ok, but that doesn't explain why you wouldn't use a Knight of Westlock as your Avenger, since a 7 die/1 Pierce attack > 6 die/2 Pierce attack.
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Thanks everyone for your suggestions and comments, very much appreciated. I will definitely rebuild this spellbook with many suggestions. Hopefully, I will then win a game against my friends.
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Ok, but that doesn't explain why you wouldn't use a Knight of Westlock as your Avenger, since a 7 die/1 Pierce attack > 6 die/2 Pierce attack.
Have you seen the obscene amounts of armor Wizards are running (4-5 armor + Voltaric Shield) add in a plus a 5 armor Iron Golem. Give me piercing any day. What makes the Ballista so scary? The piercing IMHO....when you can take an IG from 13 down to 3-5 in one round, its the piercing.
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Ok, but that doesn't explain why you wouldn't use a Knight of Westlock as your Avenger, since a 7 die/1 Pierce attack > 6 die/2 Pierce attack.
Have you seen the obscene amounts of armor Wizards are running (4-5 armor + Voltaric Shield) add in a plus a 5 armor Iron Golem. Give me piercing any day. What makes the Ballista so scary? The piercing IMHO....when you can take an IG from 13 down to 3-5 in one round, its the piercing.
Piercing is nice, but it isn't worth as much as simply more dice.
Ballista is powerful because of the following:
1. It is a conjuration attack, so it can act right after one of your creatures without giving your opponent a chance to interrupt.
2. It has excellent range and a high-dice attack. The piercing on it is a bonus over a normal 5-die attack, but an 8-die attack with no piercing would be even better than 5 dice/3 pierce.
3. It's cheap to cast or put into (most) books.
4. It's fairly hard to destroy at 8 HP/2 Armor.
I don't exactly feel like explaining why +1 die is superior to +1 piercing at 1 AM, but please take the word of a mathematician. Study fas' table (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13562.0), and if you still have questions tomorrow I'll see if I can explain it then.
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I understand the math and if I were to purely look at the curve as you are suggesting and just did pure math, the averages would totally validate your argument. However, in the games I played people play with the other pieces here, like stacking armor.
Would you rather roll:
6 Dice against 3 Armor 1 Piercing
or 5 Dice against 3 Armor 2 Piercing
Since the Piercing reduces the armor by one we now have
6 dice against 2 armor
2,43 4,31 6,19
or
5 dice against 1 armor
2,37 4,13 5,90
Yes the numbers are better (barely) for 6 against 2, but in playing this game I have had more consistency from stacking piercing than increasing dice. Honestly I do both as in my original statement I also add in a Bear Strength which would go on both, but I like to throw in the Piercing Strike (+3) vs. Power Strike (+2) for the same mana, when properly timed, it can be quite the momentum swing.
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Hey Jayjazz that spell book looks pretty fun to play in a casual game! I've been trying to fiddle around with the Priest some myself.
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I understand the math and if I were to purely look at the curve as you are suggesting and just did pure math, the averages would totally validate your argument. However, in the games I played people play with the other pieces here, like stacking armor.
Would you rather roll:
6 Dice against 3 Armor 1 Piercing
or 5 Dice against 3 Armor 2 Piercing
Since the Piercing reduces the armor by one we now have
6 dice against 2 armor
2,43 4,31 6,19
or
5 dice against 1 armor
2,37 4,13 5,90
Yes the numbers are better (barely) for 6 against 2, but in playing this game I have had more consistency from stacking piercing than increasing dice.
Humans are atrocious at understanding statistics, not least because of confirmation bias. You saying that you have more consistency from increasing piercing than increasing dice an equal amount, or any other anecdotal "evidence" isn't verifiable or useful.
Now, adding more dice does slightly increase the standard deviation each time. However, the amount it adds to the average is greater than the amount it increases the standard deviation. We're only talking an increase of about .1 to the SD while the increase to the average is about .2. If you want consistently higher rolls, increasing dice is the way to go.
To answer your question, I'd rather roll more dice.
Honestly I do both as in my original statement I also add in a Bear Strength which would go on both, but I like to throw in the Piercing Strike (+3) vs. Power Strike (+2) for the same mana, when properly timed, it can be quite the momentum swing.
Piercing Strike is only better than Power Strike when (letting defender armour - attacker pierce before either strike is applied = A, number of dice = D)
max{ A , 0 } is an element of Z Union [ 3 , 3 + D/3 ]
In all other cases, Power Strike is superior.
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Mathematicians are atrocious at things where people have a feel for things that are fuzzy. Statics do not lie, people do. Playing the game itself is not pure math and results are not on a bell curve.
Let's meet in the arena, I will build a book that concentrates on piercing more than dice stacking you can do the opposite.
Yes the gauntlet has been thrown....
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Mathematicians are atrocious at things where people have a feel for things that are fuzzy.
What exactly is that supposed to mean?
Statics do not lie, people do. Playing the game itself is not pure math and results are not on a bell curve.
Dice rolls can still be modeled as a discrete Gaussian, which is colloquially still known as a "bell curve".
Let's meet in the arena, I will build a book that concentrates on piercing more than dice stacking you can do the opposite.
Yes the gauntlet has been thrown....
Even if I had the time to play over OCTGN during the next few weeks, the outcome of the game would mean nothing. Besides, it would be rather trivial to just focus on zombies or plants, rendering your piercing useless.
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What exactly is that supposed to mean?
Hey I am just modeling my counters with your statement, you said humans don't understand math when it gets hard, and I said mathematicians don't understand when there is more than cold hard science involved.
Dice rolls can still be modeled as a discrete Gaussian, which is colloquially still known as a "bell curve".
So if I plot a set of dots on a piece of paper and draw a line though them, what is the modern term for this process, as I would not like to speak in such an old fashion manner as I do.
Even if I had the time to play over OCTGN during the next few weeks, the outcome of the game would mean nothing. Besides, it would be rather trivial to just focus on zombies or plants, rendering your piercing useless.
So if we had time and you built a deck within the spirit of my proposal:, I focus on piercing plus some dice stacking with the intent to kill high armor creatures (i.e. Iron Golems etc.) and you focus on stacking dice and killing high HP creatures with some armor <3. We were to play a series of games and all things being equal, if the winner of those games were the (statically speaking) strongly leaned to the piercing side, you would still disregard the results as causal and bear no relationship to the statical model of the dice, even though we know that is modeled and what happens in the real world are two separate things.
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Hey I am just modeling my counters with your statement, you said humans don't understand math when it gets hard, and I said mathematicians don't understand when there is more than cold hard science involved.
I said statistics not mathematics, and I mentioned nothing of difficulty. Mathematics and statistics are not synonymous.
What I said was not meant as an insult, though evidently you've taken it as such. I apologize for offending you.
So if we had time and you built a deck within the spirit of my proposal:, I focus on piercing plus some dice stacking with the intent to kill high armor creatures (i.e. Iron Golems etc.) and you focus on stacking dice and killing high HP creatures with some armor <3. We were to play a series of games and all things being equal, if the winner of those games were the (statically speaking) strongly leaned to the piercing side, you would still disregard the results as causal and bear no relationship to the statical model of the dice, even though we know that is modeled and what happens in the real world are two separate things.
It would be meaningless because of the following:
1. Our skill levels, both in building books and while playing, are likely not similar
2. Even if our skills were of a comparable level, are you aware of how many games we would have to play in order to reach a statistically significant number? Hundreds of games, over OCTGN, will take more hours than I have or even care to put into the game right now.
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What I said was not meant as an insult, though evidently you've taken it as such. I apologize for offending you.
You've come across a bit brisk here lately, and I'm sure that's not on purpose.
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Some people are going some distance to disagree with Aylin.
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Wow, a lot has happened in the last few days...
Well said, Kich.
As someone who has had a quite a vigorous contretemps with Aylin, I nevertheless respect her firebrand passion, even if it sometimes pushes noses out of joint. Reading the "debate" on Piercing vs. Dice (which I find a bit incredulous) that stretched across 3 threads simultaneously, I sympathise with the frustration she must have felt trying to prove black is darker than white and that this frustration may have made some of her remarks less than gracious.
Aylin is undoubtedly very perceptive with game mechanics, providing insightful advice (perhaps not always sugar coated), game-relevant statistical knowledge and has been an extremely active forum regular since her recent appearance. As someone who received a Last Warning PM for what I felt was a nothing incident (I was called names and did not reply in kind) in the Golem Pit thread that influenced the meta, I know first hand just how much of a "kick in the teeth" it feels to put all that effort into sharing an insight - then be reprimanded for defending that insight (that most people now agree with)! It honestly makes you feel like saying: "stuff these idiots! I'm off to another hobby." The temptation to "take your ball and go home", to let the others catch up with your insight, is overwhelming. In my case, it was a nice PM by Shad0w that kept me in the hobby.
I hope this has not caused Aylin to quit the forum because, although I sometimes feel she could be less forceful (but that's just "knowing you are right"), since she appeared on this forum, she has contributed so much, answering many queries correctly, providing insightful nuggets into the game (especially with regard to the Druid) and yes, even providing a fresh perspective on societal values. I for one will be sending her a PM with a link to this post to show support (we're not exactly on speaking terms).
That said, only now with fresh eyes reading the concurrent threads where she actively defended the value of extra dice over piercing, one remark sticks out, "/mathfail" (on another thread), which Hedge quite rightly took her to task on (especially as it wasn't aimed at a stalwart like sIKE who fights his own battles all too well). I believe no matter how aggravated we get, we should avoid belittling others, making others feel worse from the experience of visiting this forum.
At least one other regular contributor can be quite dismissive with "yet another rules questions that's answered in the rulebook" (as opposed to FAQ) or spellbook lists that are contrary to conventional wisdom, especially when that newbie is insistent they know better to the advice you give them (I'm still like that). However, instead of displaying impatience with a newbie's rule question or deriding an unorthodox idea that may be flawed, we should remember we were all new once, we all had crazy ideas once (like thinking Warlord Ranged could win!) and sometimes these crazy ideas may have something new of value in them.
When I joined this forum, I was taken aback at how NICE it was compared to other forums, how the forum luminaries took time to educate me about the error in my thinking in the nicest possible way. It was the friendliness of these well-known forum names (some of them sadly quieter now) that kept me in my new hobby instead of flitting to my next new hobby (and the fact that the game is mostly very strong and fun, an ideal mix of control freak strategising, contingency planning, dice roll excitement and improvisation).
We already know the game is great. Let's also be different to many forums and be nice to any newbies, no matter how much deja vu their rules questions invoke. And when you are defending a position that may seem obvious to you (like Aylin with Piercing), just be more patient instead of showing your frustration. Eventually, what is correct will emerge, Aylin - then you can necro the thread with a smug "I was right!". Meantime, let's all be nicer on this forum with no personal belittling?
OMG, I've turned all hippy pro-establishment! I'll have to find a topic where I can tear into AW to regain my "pain-in-the-@rse" reputation...