Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: patrickconnor on October 07, 2013, 09:51:27 AM
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(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/555917_581179431918153_1100980300_n.png)
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And the earth Wizard got a little stronger :)
Nice and cool and awesome creature!
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This thing looks like it's going to be almost impossible to kill. It heals every time it damages a corporeal creature?! And it's attack is 5 dice plus corrode, and it's resilient. Between psychic immunity and uncontainable it sounds like there is literally no way to stop this creature other than killing it or putting a wall in front of it. The only real counterbalancing factor, and thank god for it, is that you aren't going to be able to attach Nature buffs to him.
This looks like a lot of fun.
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Whoa! I'm just looking at it quickly, but is this a hard counter to Iron Golem? If it is, it's kind of a shame it's in arcane, but it's welcome anyway!
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Ring, you nailed it, 100% counter to Golem. This thing is amazing! First, great job on the artwork, really conveys the grossness. I'm a bit sad this will cost 6 points for my non acrane mages, but with what it's got going for it, seems like a no brainer. With a wiz build, three of these on the board will be a fantastic thing indeed. 9+ two corrode with devour! Brutal. These bad boys are going to make such fantastic guards. Poor forcemaster.
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The art on this card is awesome, the guy dissolving on the side of the ooze is creepy cool.
Looks like a nice conjuration buster to me. Plop it on top of a Wizards Tower or BF and watch them melt away....
They are strong but with no armor (much like the Earth Elemental - remember him) he will be focus killed real quick. Fortified Position would help in that aspect though.
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Wow. Great meta-changing card. Probably has the biggest impact of previews so far.
Resilient - why will Fortified Position help? (Acid Immunity vs. Corrode.) So 18 dice focus damage needed to deal 9 damage on average. That's alot. Unlike Regenerate 2, each Reconstruct 2 will be 4 more dice of attacks.
Psychic and Poison Immunity - these cards are now even more niche as more mages seem to have access to these linked immunities
Uncontainable (finally appears) - no Tanglevine, Force Hold, Stuck (Cripple is a Poison already), nice anti-control
Immune To Itself (plus Raptors ranged, Acid Ball) - this is useful as last action summon to first action attack your doppleganger is usually perfectly viable in the mirror match
Corrode - obvious Iron Golem bane, this makes Earth specialisation less special (thankfully), also makes armoured Wizard with a Shield on less persistently invincible (good)
Devour - this just Obliterates right, destroying recursion? Yeah, it's useful against Zombies of course
Level 3 Arcane - splashable as toolbox against high armour? And because it's awesome in any defensive Guard deck (my bad, see post below). As an Aberration, the Arcane school is the right school for it to be in (can come through the Gate). As tricksiness is needed to play it well which all Wizards have (Forcemaster pays triple). Still, I'd be very happy if it was the only new card Wizards got in this set (too good).
So resource costs = 3 or 6 spell points, 13 mana, full action
Base Stats = 5 dice attack + corrode, 18 dice resilience + 4 dice per attack it makes
Feels a bit undercosted....
But not panicking yet because, like Golems, it is Slow Nonliving (only Charge) but unlike Golems, it does not have Unmovable.
Forcemaster can just move it, even Force Pull from range 2 while ally gets at the thing it guards. And it can be Slammed after it is activated to guard (Surging Wave becomes even better) to bypass it. Unmovable is surely the real issue that Forcemaster has with Iron Golems?
It also does not have the Iron Golem's Burnproof. Expect a lot more Flame in the meta after the Druid arrives.
It is the ideal companion for the lonely Hydra, softening up the victim by corroding its armour before its Triple Strike. And during lulls with no threats nearby, it can always take a bite off its buddy to reconstruct, the Hydra can always grow it back (but not the scales sadly).
A very nice addition to the defensive control game (it's not for aggro though works in "Ooze Hydra Pit" abusing Teleport). Perhaps a bit too strong, but we shall see...
Question: if it only deals direct damage via its Corrode effect, does it Reconstruct 2?
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Not a good guard because it has only a Full Action attack, so can't counterstrike.
If this were an airplane, it would be a bomber. No good in a dogfight, but tough and very dangerous to buildings and any armor too slow to move out of the way.
This will melt Wall of Steel very quickly, and will soak a lot of attacks from Wizard's Tower, I bet.
Sort of a shame Iron Golem didn't come with acid +2 the way Wall of Steel did. Oh well.
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Not a good guard because it has only a Full Action attack, so can't counterstrike.
Oh wow! I totally missed that! Very nice, my fears of it being overpowered are suddenly calmed.
That's amazing. What an incredibly clever creature concept. This is purely for trap-setting.
Good spot!
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This will melt Wall of Steel very quickly, and will soak a lot of attacks from Wizard's Tower, I bet.
Another nice spot. Finally a reason why Wall of Steel seems so undercosted just 1 more than Wall of Stone (which Golem Pit plays only because 2 Stones cost crucial 14 mana).
Yes, you're totally right, this is your carpet bomber against conjurations, a very Slow walking version of Akiro's Hammer (both great against Druid's plentiful conjurations). But it only Reconstructs when it tastes corporeal creatures. If it Reconstructed on anything Living (creature or conjuration), it's more intuitive but probably be broken against Druid. I dislike the purely mechanistic difference between living creatures and living conjurations.
I'm still in shell shock they created a Slow Nonliving creature with only a Full Attack. You can't get more telegraphed than that. Awesome!
Along with Rooted, they're developing the game more into a boardgame's "Territory Wars". Which is good.
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Ahh good catch on full action. Not quite as powerful as first thought. 13 mana is still pretty darn cheap though. Initially I thought they would be good for destroying spawnpoints/towers etc, but without the regen ability, I think they would go down fairly quickly, even with resilient. Zone control is probably the best strategy for these, as said above.
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I like this oozy little fellow and i can't wait to play him :)
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Question: if it only deals direct damage via its Corrode effect, does it Reconstruct 2?
No
If it rolls an attack and it is either negated by armor, or rolls all blanks. His attack does not connect and "misses" which would not trigger his ability.
Corrode tokens generated by the ooze are not considered "dealing damage from his attack". They are there own damage source.
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Hmm, Kharhaz thematically that just doesn't make sense to me based on the ability. Corrode effects armor, so I would have thought that if you rolled attacks but all were blocked by armor, the effect would still trigger. Obvioulsy if you missed entirely then that wouldn't make sense. I'm glad the question was asked, I would have played incorrectly.
It does make sense that he wouldn't be able to regen from a corrode only attack though.
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It's really unlikely anyway. The ooze would have to roll 5 blanks against 0 armor, or exactly 1 regular damage against 1 armor, and also proc more corrode than the target has armor.
Kind of odd, though, that the damage that comes instead of a corrode token from an attack doesn't count as part of that attack. I'm going through my mind trying to remember if there are any other similar abilities in the game yet, and I can't think of any, so this is almost certainly the way to handle it that doesn't risk conflicting with other rules.
I guess we'll have to see the final rules. I feel like a kid right before christmas!
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Hmm, Kharhaz thematically that just doesn't make sense to me based on the ability. Corrode effects armor, so I would have thought that if you rolled attacks but all were blocked by armor, the effect would still trigger. Obvioulsy if you missed entirely then that wouldn't make sense. I'm glad the question was asked, I would have played incorrectly.
It does make sense that he wouldn't be able to regen from a corrode only attack though.
Secondary effects are rolled simultaneously with attack rolls but are resolved after the damage is dealt, or not dealt if all blanks.
So lets assume our ooze rolls 4 non critical damage and rolls a 12 to generate 2 corrode tokens vs. an iron golem (armor 5).
Because of how armor and damage are calculated, immediately after checking for critical damage, the iron golem would not take any damage from the hit even though it will end with the golem having 3 armor.
In short, attacks only deal damage if the amount rolled on the attack die are not reduced to zero from armor.
Secondary effects like rot, taint, and now corrode are not part of that attack. Otherwise a zombie bat could use rot tokens to make more zombies via ziggurat of undeath
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Looks good- but why does every halfway decent attacking creature have to get slow especially when it's only attack is a full action?
Looking forward to the Promo for Peanut Butter Golem
12 Mana
Arcane
no armor
12 life
any creature attacking the PB Golem is slowed for the rest of the game.
If the PB golem attacks or is attacked by a Jelly creature both creatures are banished and a a healing shrine of PB&J is summoned in their place for three rounds. Any creature as a quick action may partake of the PBJ with the following effects:
Regenerate two points of damage and gain sugar boost (Fast trait) for their next turn.
Weakness Canines: if the PB Golem is attacked by a canine it is instantly destroyed, but the canine is immobilized for two rounds.
sorry guys- just had to do that! ;)
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Hmm, Kharhaz thematically that just doesn't make sense to me based on the ability. Corrode effects armor, so I would have thought that if you rolled attacks but all were blocked by armor, the effect would still trigger. Obvioulsy if you missed entirely then that wouldn't make sense. I'm glad the question was asked, I would have played incorrectly.
It does make sense that he wouldn't be able to regen from a corrode only attack though.
Secondary effects are rolled simultaneously with attack rolls but are resolved after the damage is dealt, or not dealt if all blanks.
So lets assume our ooze rolls 4 non critical damage and rolls a 12 to generate 2 corrode tokens vs. an iron golem (armor 5).
Because of how armor and damage are calculated, immediately after checking for critical damage, the iron golem would not take any damage from the hit even though it will end with the golem having 3 armor.
In short, attacks only deal damage if the amount rolled on the attack die are not reduced to zero from armor.
Secondary effects like rot, taint, and now corrode are not part of that attack. Otherwise a zombie bat could use rot tokens to make more zombies via ziggurat of undeath
This is sort of an interesting interaction between armor and corrode that reduces corrodes effectiveness against high armor targets. The Iron Golem with it's 5 armor will with an average result block all regular damage from a 5 die attack. This isn't a huge issue when rolling this many dice because the chance of getting at least one critical damage is pretty high and there is a significant chance of dealing enough regular damage to overcome the armor. But, it does reveal how hit or miss something like a Acid Ball is against an Iron Golem: There is only a 55-56% chance that it's going to do anything as you must roll critical damage in order to hit and make the corrode effect stick.
I think the Devouring Jelly is just at the point where is has a strong enough attack to take down Iron Golems effectively, but until you hit with that first attack that lands a corrode marker there is a pretty decent chance that the Golem is going to be able to face him down. If we break it down a little bit there is a 2/3 chance of rolling high enough to get one or two corrode effect from the d12, but there is a 12.5% chance of scoring no critical damage on that roll and only about a 36% chance of dealing enough damage to exceed his armor without critical damage. This leaves us at roughly a 38% chance of not landing a corrode marker on an Iron Golem on any given attack. Which if course means that you didn't manage to heal either.
I guess the point of all of this is that it seems like an Iron Golem even in a one on one match up with the Devouring Jelly has a reasonable chance to come out the winner. 2 Iron Golems and the Jelly will be instantly spread on toast with basically no effect.
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The specific situation I was thinking of was that a creature with no armor (Zombie Minion, maybe) takes 0 damage from the red dice in the attack, and would take 1 point of corrode, but because it has no armor it takes 1 point of damage instead.
It takes this damage during the same step of combat as it would take regular red die combat damage (step 4), because thats the step that resolves effects.
In this case, it doesn't seem like its the token causing the damage, but the rules of the Jelly's corrode ability itself. The ability rules cause the damage as an effect instead of placing the token, so it can't actually be the condition that's causing the damage (like it would be with rot), because the condition token is never applied, an effect is instead.
Jelly's reconstruct ability triggers when it "attacks and damages a coporial creature". Are you sure this doesn't count? Its the creature's attack effect that is causing the damage.
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I get that tweaking the effect rule for corrode only would make things unnecessarily complicated and confusing. I was just saying that thematically it doesn't make much sense. I do however understand that this is a game, and however much the rest of the game does it beautifully, everything can't play out realistically. I was thinking of it like aliens acid blood from the movie aliens. I had an initial build strategy of raptors being support armor killers towards golems and other high armor creatures. They would spit acid slowly taking away high armor with a main creature doing most of the damage. If the raptors did critical damage all the better, but they were there as more of a support. But no biggie, the great thing about this game is that I can just trash that build idea and find another combination in the endless possibilities.
BTW the flavor text of Jelly is absolutely brilliant!!! "Good Gods! Is that Flamberson's head floating inside there?" Classic!
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Wiz, where are you getting this? I just re-read the damage rules, and theres nothing there about needing to do damage to in order to apply a rolled condition or effect. A Jelly attack that does 5 normal damage and 2 corrode to an Iron Golem is going to leave it with all its health but two fewer armor.
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Wiz, where are you getting this? I just re-read the damage rules, and theres nothing there about needing to do damage to in order to apply a rolled condition or effect. A Jelly attack that does 5 normal damage and 2 corrode to an Iron Golem is going to leave it with all its health but two fewer armor.
Ring is correct even on a role of 0 damage you still get the effect of an attack.
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Woohoo!
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In this case, it doesn't seem like its the token causing the damage, but the rules of the Jelly's corrode ability itself. The ability rules cause the damage as an effect instead of placing the token, so it can't actually be the condition that's causing the damage (like it would be with rot), because the condition token is never applied, an effect is instead.
The rules of the corrode token is causing the damage, not the jelly's attack.
Another example:
I vampiric strike my giant wolf spider. His attack gains the vampiric trait but regardless of how it rolls, it will never gain life from the damage caused by it's taint ability, it is not part of the attack.
Same thing here with the jelly. The corrode token checks to see if the targets armor would be reduced to zero and, if it would, deals 1 point of damage. It does not add 1 point of damage to the attack. Even if it rolls 2 corrode tokens, it checks the first token, then the second, and deals 1 point of damage, then 1 point of damage. Each point is independent of the attack and would not trigger the jelly's reconstruct ability
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I think there is some confusion about the ability being triggered:
I get the impression Kharhaz was talking about Reconstruct only being triggered if the Jelly does damage from its attack dice.
Others have picked up the view that the Corrode is only triggered if the attack dice do damage. From other threads/previous questions I'm fairly sure that this isn't the case (and not what Kharhaz was saying).
The wording in the rule book is a little ambiguous, as it does say that an attack roll of blank dice is a miss, which implies the attack didn't connect. However, the next stage of resolving the attack is still to roll for conditions, regardless of the outcome of the attack dice roll.
The only way an attack really misses (and the condition roll step negated) is through an enchantment reveal type dodge or a successful defence roll.
I'm being fairly assertive here in my conclusions, so hopefully I'm right :)
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I'm glad this came up guys. I'll make sure that this very question makes the FAQ for DVN.
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Its just a generic FAQ item isnt it? rather than specific to DvN? or do all game update/FAQ get rolled out each expansion release?
I'm glad this came up guys. I'll make sure that this very question makes the FAQ for DVN.
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Yes lets give the wizard another uber card....great
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Its just a generic FAQ item isnt it? rather than specific to DvN? or do all game update/FAQ get rolled out each expansion release?
I'm glad this came up guys. I'll make sure that this very question makes the FAQ for DVN.
We're trying to address questions that come up in DVN with the next update to the FAQ. New releases often add the most to potential FAQ's. Yes this is a good general question.
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Sorry for the confusions and very glad to here that armor doesn't cause a miss. I guess I was just assuming that others were correct.
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Same. Quite happy with the answer. Thematically makes it seem much more realistic.
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The rules of the corrode token is causing the damage, not the jelly's attack.
Another example:
I vampiric strike my giant wolf spider. His attack gains the vampiric trait but regardless of how it rolls, it will never gain life from the damage caused by it's taint ability, it is not part of the attack.
Same thing here with the jelly. The corrode token checks to see if the targets armor would be reduced to zero and, if it would, deals 1 point of damage. It does not add 1 point of damage to the attack. Even if it rolls 2 corrode tokens, it checks the first token, then the second, and deals 1 point of damage, then 1 point of damage. Each point is independent of the attack and would not trigger the jelly's reconstruct ability
You're making your case based on the idea that the rule that causes surplus corrode tokens to instead become damage is "on the token" and not "on the creature". This seems like a wierd distinction to me. The rule is in the manual / codex. The name of the ability is on the creature and on the token used to track the condition the ability may cause.
I think the better way of looking at this question is "is this an effect of the attack or an effect of the condition?" I.e., is the 1 point of direct damage like the push effect of a Whirling Spirit (a consequence of the attack), or is it like the daze condition caused by removing a sleep marker (a consequence of the rules for the condition).
Going by the spoiled codex text in the Acid Ball article:
Corrode
Condition Marker
Corrode is an acid condition. For each Corrode condition marker on an object, it receives Armor -1. Objects can never have Corrode markers on them, which would reduce their armor to below zero. Extra markers are destroyed. If an object with zero armor would gain a Corrode condition marker, each marker it would receive instead becomes one point of direct acid damage. Incorporeal objects are immune to Corrode.
To me that sounds like the condition never happens and instead the ability causes the effect of +1 direct damage.
Which is why it seems to me like the direct damage is an effect of the attack, not an effect of ending the condition, and why it should trigger "attack and damage" abilities.
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I think the better way of looking at this question is "is this an effect of the attack or an effect of the condition?" I.e., is the 1 point of direct damage like the push effect of a Whirling Spirit (a consequence of the attack), or is it like the daze condition caused by removing a sleep marker (a consequence of the rules for the condition).
Great example!
Selesius uses her push attack against Tarok and rolls a secondary push effect!
Selesius' owner pushes Tarok into an arena wall which triggers a bash effect. That bash effect is not subject to the +2 from Selsius' attack. As the damage is from the push codex.
pg 26 v2
Direct Damage
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"Some effects cause direct damage. This damage is placed directly on the target creature. It is not an attack, and cannot be prevented or avoided. Armor and other traits, effects, and abilities cannot modify or reduce direct damage.
Exception: If an object has Immunity to a damage type, it is not affected by direct damage of that type."
So to bring it back around
Jelly attacks zombie. Rolls 5 blanks and a 12 effect die. the attack misses and the zombie receives 2 corrode condition markers. The first marker checks to see if the target has armor, and deals 1 point of direct acid damage. The second marker checks to see if the target has armor, and deals 1 point of direct acid damage.
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The first marker checks to see if the target has armor, and deals 1 point of direct acid damage. The second marker checks to see if the target has armor, and deals 1 point of direct acid damage.
Just for the sake of clarity, and both markers are then discarded.
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Yes, in this example, when you resolve step 4 of the attack, the dice you rolled in step 3 do no damage. Then the first corrode effect of the jelly's attack does one point of direct damage instead of putting on a corrode marker, and then the second corrode effect of the jelly's attack does one point of direct damage instead of putting on a corrode marker.
Now we check triggers and discover that the jelly has both attacked and damaged the zombie in step 4. This is where I think the reconstruct ability happens.
Importantly, I'm arguing that the Jelly caused the damage with its attack, and that the direct damage from the attack is damage from the jelly.
This is unlike bashing into a wall because bash is a separate attack received by the bashed creature, and is resolved in a separate attack sequence. But direct damage is not an attack, it's an effect, and in this case it happens within the attack that causes it, like the push effect itself.
If the attack and damage trigger is only checked in the middle of step 4, after the dice rolled in step 3 do no damage, but before effects from the attack are resolved, then I can see that the "attack and damage" clause might fail, but usually Mage Wars checks continuously and the direct damage caused during the remainder of step 4 is still part of the same attack, and direct damage is still damage.
I guess I'm taking "attack and damage" literally. Did it attack? Did the attacked creature receive any damage during the attack? I realize that this is unusual, especially if you're used to MtG which has a separate concept of "attack damage" thats different from all other sources of damage, but as far as I know, Mage Wars doesn't have that concept.
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Im on the other side of the fence ringkichard.
(To me) There is no difference on the possible extra damage from corrosive, burn or rot... and surely we dont want a rot bat with vampirism to leech life during the next upkeep when the rot effect applies.
I realize that the rot effect occurs much later than the corrode effect.
This slime has an attack of 5 dice - this attack can heal / recontruct the slime.
2/3 of the time the attack of the slime leaves an effect on the defender. Whatever this effect does it will not heal or reconstruct the slime. The effect will either corrode armor or health - the slime is not really associated with this effect anymore and therefor it will not heal / reconstruct from it either.
I dont see how leaving some acid on something will make it heal / reconstruct - thematically speaking.
Thats how i see it :)
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I'm with Jack, the corrode damage is an effect of a condition marker, which seems like its always been seperate from the attack dice/creature action. Else it gets too complicated and hard to track - perhaps not in this instance but others would where the damage happens in the upkeep phase.
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Agreed, it's an effect of the attack, not part of the attack which allows the jelly to regen.
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I'd like to see the jelly be arcane 2 water 1 or for someone to tell me why the harpy is hybrid while this is not. encourage some druids to pick it maybe.
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I'd like to see the jelly be arcane 2 water 1 or for someone to tell me why the harpy is hybrid while this is not. encourage some druids to pick it maybe.
Nice idea! If the cards are not yet at the printers, they may well listen...
I view the Harpy as a lost opportunity. It should have been range 1-2 1 die psychic 4+ pull 1. That would have been the perfect finesse tool for Air Wizards. Its ranged attack is so situational (get past non-intercepting guards, a creature with defence on 1 life, what other benefit?). In the same set as Gargoyle, they paled in comparison.
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Pulling(7+ effect) Harpy would have been cool instead of the scream thing its got going on..
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I think harpy was supposed to be a counter to Forcemaster.