Arcane Wonders Forum
Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: Erronius on September 29, 2013, 05:08:10 PM
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Is this combo more of a parlor trick or does it have legs competitively? The obelisk is good for FM anyway since she doesn't run many creatures. The ability to insta-kill a hydra or a grizzly is pretty nasty.
In general, I'm hoping this might be an alternative to the wizard + gate that seems to dominate the meta right now (thank you Charmyna :).
-Aaron
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(hat=competitive) Let me put it this way: I've never seen it work well, and I have never built a competitive book with it, but if it could kill Iron Golems I think it'd be better than Thorn-Push and every competitive book I've ever seen played includes countermeasures for Wall of Thorns.
Right now, Sleep+Teleport seems better, or just Turn to Stone, Banish, or Force Hold (with or without Enchantment Transfusion) but it has a huge potential upside if the metagame unseats Earth Wizard, so better check again in a month. (/hat)
Of course, what are you asking us for? Do science yourself and report you findings!
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I was thinking about making this strategy even crazier by casting mind control and enchantment transfusion on an invisible stalker, effectively banking the action.
This is probably still to slow, but I'm going to give it a whirl on OCTGN.
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Of course! I get it now! Since upkeep +1 trait from mordok's obelisk is for the controller to pay, not the owner, so if you take control of an opponent's creature and then choose NOT to pay the upkeep cost...
And since the controller of a card or effect also gets to choose what order simultaneous effects occur in, you can choose not to pay the upkeep trait given to the creature BEFORE you would have to pay the mind control upkeep to keep control over it so that your opponent doesn't have the chance to save the creature.
Crafty! And not too mana expensive either. If they have two golems and you have a obelisk and cast mind control twice, they've invested 26 mana (13+13 for golem summons) and you've invested 24 (8 for obelisk and 16 to mind control two golems). On top of that, those golems are stunned! And if you want to, you can keep one of them for yourself for a short while either to deal more damage (if you're nearing the endgame), or to hold off your opponent while you get your bearings and prepare a counterattack, or to destroy that big conjuration that needs to die! Those golems can't even move their mouths to say their last words! This seems like a pretty good strategy. I hope it works as well as it seems like it will!
Also, enchantment transfusion won't work on mind control, since it has an effect that says it can't be moved to another target.
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Sadly, no-go on the Golems. Mind Control is keyword "psychic", and Iron Golems are psychic immune. Which is why I tried to imply that it would be great if it worked, but it doesn't. Keep this in mind with the undead, too.
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You need to keep in mind as well that you can reveal mind control only between action phases. Therefore, if your opponent has a dispel prepared (possibly on a mage wand) and got enough mana, he can dispel the mind control in the last QC phase. If you reveal several mind control in one round, thats a different story though.
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Hmm... perhaps this is where having 6 enchanters wardstones might come in? ;)
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I have found playing against Mind Control that it is very hard to make use of it. It Stuns when revealed. So the creature does nothing that round and then you Dispel it and the Creature is Stuns again when removed. So most of the time it is a two round Stun .....
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Wand of Healing/Clear Mind are fun with Mind Control. Then you can reveal MC and purge the stun condition off so as to put the creature to work the same turn you reveal it.
But yeah usually it doesn't last long, wardstones help a little bit in that area.
My biggest beef is that its a 6th level spell, its a heavy investment with a lot of red tape to just trade for a dispel and stun.
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Ok... I am really mad... how do I counter this damn thing...
Obelisk was down, so I "saw it coming". So I put nullify on my beefed up Brogan. Then the Forcemaster throws back to back decoy and mind control. Next turn, my Brogan dies.
I see some of you guys saying you haven't seen it work well, so please tell me how to stop it.
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Ok... I am really mad... how do I counter this damn thing...
Obelisk was down, so I "saw it coming". So I put nullify on my beefed up Brogan. Then the Forcemaster throws back to back decoy and mind control. Next turn, my Brogan dies.
I see some of you guys saying you haven't seen it work well, so please tell me how to stop it.
Jinx can help stall and draw out the actions it takes to pull off the combo but there is nothing you can really do about it. It is a lot of mana and actions invested into the combo however. Best thing to do is try not to rely on single beefed up critters and focus on multitude of minions.
I know that is crappy advice when there is an obelisk down to punish you for multiple creatures, but the obelisk has always been that kind of Tanya Harding Knee Smashing kind of card. Definitely not one of my favorites.
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The scenario you describe sounds like you had a few rounds with the Obelisk up. My suggestion would be next time to make the Obelisk itself your top priority. Why beef up Brogan if you expected to lose him? If 'beef up' included a Bear Strength, an even slightly lucky single attack roll would have taken the Obelisk out, or two attacks at most with anything but the worst of luck. Power down the Obelisk, and Mind Control becomes a two-round Stun, and you're also free to bring out all the other stupendously powerful Holy creatures if you want.
The only other way I could see dealing with the issue would have been to keep a Dispel in your hand until he cast it. Just suffering the one-spell-per-turn issue until the threat has passed.
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What do you think the card Mind Shield is for? Exactly to counter Mind Control. Get 1-2 in your deck, then rush to kill the obelisk.
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I'm with Indy here, if I am expecting a Mind Control I just keep a Dispel in hand. I then use my mage to melee during his action. What I have done is once the MC has come out and my creature is stunned and if he hasn't already been activated, I then go ahead and Dispel the MC (the 2nd stun), I then activate the creature removing the stun at the end of his action.
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sIKE, I'm no expert with FM like you. But all my FM builds have always used this trick. What happens is this...
I am within 3 of a big threat (say Vampiric Bear Strength Grizzly), have Initiative and, due to the QC Force Pull then attack tactic of FM, I have 18 mana in my pool. I choose Mind Control and Mordok's Obelisk in Planning.
After my first action, when I am now adjacent to threat, I QC Mind Control on threat and reveal it (pay 2+8) to Stun the threat before it acts. Unless opponent has Dispel ready, I Final QC Obelisk to let it die before opponent can Dispel the Mind Control. The Obelisk now deters swarm so I threaten any other over-invested threat. No book can really afford more than 2 Mind Controls at 6 spell points each (Obelisk is another 4 but always good for FM). Also there is a lot of popular Psychic Immunity out there so investing points like this is a big risk.
FM player should not telegraph by casting Obelisk first (it should always be cast Final QC before Upkeep to mess up opponent's plans).
It's not that great: you spend alot of mana and spell points, so only really good against an over-buffed creature (Wizard has Purge Magic). For 6 spell points, 16 mana and 2 quick actions, FM can cast Sleep + Quicksand to remove an isolated level 4 threat. Although there are lots of outs there (Teleport solves almost all problems).
They have costed "removal" tricks at roughly the same cost as the threat you remove (just like Dispel/Dissolve).
Now, I've never thought about Mind Shield before (Wildhorn's proposal). It's a pretty specific counter for 2 spell points. Anyone who plays Enchanter's Ring (FM's other ring) and enchantments will probably use Decoys instead of Seeking Dispel to trigger Nullify (save points, deter Seeking Dispel, make 1 mana). Mind Shield like Retaliate is not mandatory, you don't need to trigger it to Charm (which can always guard or attack other objects). It's good when a card I'd dismissed as too niche is proved useful. That is if you're regularly facing this trick. Shame it doesn't get round Nightshade Lotus which is a poison attack.
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sIKE, I'm no expert with FM like you. But all my FM builds have always used this trick. What happens is this...
I am within 3 of a big threat (say Vampiric Bear Strength Grizzly), have Initiative and, due to the QC Force Pull then attack tactic of FM, I have 18 mana in my pool. I choose Mind Control and Mordok's Obelisk in Planning.
After my first action, when I am now adjacent to threat, I QC Mind Control on threat and reveal it (pay 2+8) to Stun the threat before it acts. Unless opponent has Dispel ready, I Final QC Obelisk to let it die before opponent can Dispel the Mind Control. The Obelisk now deters swarm so I threaten any other over-invested threat. No book can really afford more than 2 Mind Controls at 6 spell points each (Obelisk is another 4 but always good for FM). Also there is a lot of popular Psychic Immunity out there so investing points like this is a big risk.
FM player should not telegraph by casting Obelisk first (it should always be cast Final QC before Upkeep to mess up opponent's plans).
Now, I've never thought about Mind Shield before (Wildhorn's proposal). It's a pretty specific counter for 2 spell points. Anyone who plays Enchanter's Ring (FM's other ring) and enchantments will probably use Decoys instead of Seeking Dispel to trigger Nullify (save points, deter Seeking Dispel, make 1 mana). Mind Shield like Retaliate is not mandatory, you don't need to trigger it to Charm (which can always guard or attack other objects). It's good when a card I'd dismissed as too niche is proved useful. That is if you're regularly facing this trick. Shame it doesn't get round Nightshade Lotus which is a poison attack.
This is typically what I have seen done. Since you have initiative you MC my Bear who is now stunned, I have been paying attention to your mana pool so I grab a Dispel during the Planning phase just in-case. The main difference in my play is whether or not my Bear has been activated yet. If he has, I wait till the final QC phase then cast the Dispel, so you cast Obelisk and spend that mana down. Otherwise I do as described previously, QC the Dispel then activate my Bear to remove the Stun.
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Yeah, I have had that pre-emptive "I grabbed a Dispel just in case" done on me so I can well believe a good player would do this. I did say "Unless the opponent has a Dispel"...
Against a player of that pre-emptive anticipatory calibre, you have to be trickier. Firstly, you'll probably only see 16 mana visible. Because of the Decoy on me. Next, I may have pulled your threat out of your Dispel range. You may have spent a lot of Dispels on Force Holds already (they are more versatile Stumbles). I may threaten this one turn and do something else, like Sleep. How long will you hobble yourself with holding a Dispel "just in case"?
I was pointing out the scenario that the Opening Post gave isn't the usual order because it was so telegraphed. Executed properly, you have to be a bit "psychic" to stop it (and I honestly believe a player of your perspicacity would be able to sense the trick). And Decoys can help hide the true state of mana available.
There are mind games in Mage Wars Planning phase, especially when playing with/against a Mind Mage. Evaluating the calibre of your opponent and pitching your play appropriately is part of the game's skill. Sometimes you may be threatening something and this bluff is not appreciated by the opponent. "What? You cast a Teleport without even testing if either of the hidden enchantments is Nullify?" Facing you, sIKE, I would pitch my signals correctly.
That's a compliment btw (as I noted a bit of defensiveness in your reply). :)
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No defensiveness here, just played against the FM and played the FM a bunch. I really liked Shadows Hand Solo build pre-nerf. Haven't played her since the nerf though. Honestly the first time we would play you would get away with the MC + OB play on me. Once I know that is in your toolkit I would prep for it.....
The best I have found against the FM is a gaggle of mids with my mage hanging back. Once the FM is at 16-18 life gone. Tank up my mage and go in for the kill. Force Push + Wall of Thorns to take down the Forcefield. Then just try me best to go toe to toe. I can tell you the Promo Morningstar changes the dynamic a lot with its Unavoidable trait add in a Bear Strength and the FM is not as tough....
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As a side note to the other strategies because this is very situational:
In a couple games I have played vs a forcemaster I have purposely put a dispel wand ( not the already built equipment card mind you) in hand as a deterrent for this combo. I find that by just having it, they will be very reluctant to even try. However if they do try you don't have to worry about the anticipatory dispel before the combo because you can just use it instead of card picked. Thus minimizing wasted turns and defensive playing.
Now I say it's very situational because with a strong player this will be shut down fairly quickly. Anyway, just a thought.
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@Joe
I have played more against the FM than playing her (avoid d12 rolls). Your Mage Wand with Dispel suggestion is a perfectly good defence against the FM, especially if you have Nullify and Armour Ward protection. Ideally a Nullify that you can Transfuse from a (non-threatening Slow resilient) guard in range when a Dissolve is cast at it (at range 1 which that type of build avoids). Obviously this suits ranged control mages like Wizards best.
FM is very dependent on her enchantments to boost/protect her and hobble enemies. Her equipment is trickier to Dissolve (range 1, can be Nullified). Mage Wand with Dispel is perfect if you can protect it (it's bad news if she steals it to her off-hand, bypassing Armour Ward, but that's a pretty rare play).
The problem with FM's enchantment over-reliance is a Wizard can always Purge Magic (after testing for a Nullify) and laugh at total cost of her lost Forcefield, Bear Strength, Vampirism, Cheetah Speed and Mongoose Agility (latter for bypassing the Charmed non-flying guards being zapped by Spores). The only defence against mass enchantment removal are the Wardstones which work best with a mana denial strategy (which a FM can play). At least with a BM, you can spread enchantment buffs evenly when facing a Wizard. This is another reason why I avoid the FM. She looks so cool though....
I totally agree with you that Dispel Wand (from CoK) is just not good enough. What's wrong with it?
[1] it destroys enchantments at range 1 not 2
[2] most must-Dispel enchantments are level 2+ (Force Hold, Ghoul Rot, Enfeeble, Death Link, Vampirism etc)
[3] Wizards don't get a metamagic discount (from Arcane Ring) unlike with a Mage Wand with Dispel
Shad0w mentioned that, for CoK, he voted for Wand of Healing but got outvoted and Dispel Wand was inserted (no doubt with Wardstone, they felt the meta needed anti-enchantment tech). Sadly Dispel Wand is too limited. I'm very happy that Wand of Healing is in the new set. Needs to be added with the undead poison conditions, Lotus etc. BM finally has repeatable condition removal (this is what Staff of Beasts should have done, most BMs play Mage Staff). It's good news there will finally be this wider choice of wands. Genuine choice is good!